What to *DO* about Ukraine, Crimea, Putin, etc.?

Every time I read on-line or hear on MSM about any news coming out of the Ukraine, Crimea or Putin in general ... I can not help but compare this to Hitler's lead-up to (what became) World-Word II.

The acquisition of Crimea may as well be the annexation of Austria. The (planned) annexation of Eastern Ukrainian provinces may as well be the annexation of the Sudetenland. The names of the places and people are different - but the strategy is identical.

I am not saying Putin is the same as Hitler. I presume Putin has no interest in genocide. However, he seems to frankly be using Hitler's play-book from the 1930's, and Stalin's attitude post-war (i.e. the need for "buffer states" between Russia and the West).

I am so tired of people saying "do not compare Putin to Hitler (or Stalin)"! READ YOUR HISTORY PEOPLE!

Maybe he is not Hitler or Stalin, but whatever his "motivation" - he is using their tactics! What really frustrates me is that he is being successful doing it! He takes land, and the West "protests". He positions himself to take more land, and the West "protests" and warns of "sanctions". Everything he is saying is a pretext for annexing more territory - plain and simple. Everything else is a deception. The more he gets away with, the more he will continue to try to get away with.

All this talk of "sanctions" is not going change anything Putin is doing, or whatever he might do next. He just does not care about protests and sanctions.

I hate war, and do not want to see another one started, but this guy has got to be stopped. I am trying to think of other options for stopping him, but am coming-up blank frankly. The best I can think of is to have him assassinated. I am not big fan of that idea either - largely because it could lead to others following in his footsteps (out of anger over any such assassination). The best hope for an assassination ending these expansion practices, would presume that all of this trouble is 100% Putin's idea - or at least he is driving it as a priority personally. It seems to me that might be true, but who knows if there is some inner-core of "true believers" in this practice who could continue it or escalate it after his assassination.

Anyway, I was hoping this might be a brain-storming thread "what to do" beyond the stuff already being publicly discussed (i.e. "sanctions").

Here's the options I think of myself - none of which seem particularly good:

1) Diplomatic:

• There are only two forces that Putin has any reason to be concerned about: NATO and China. Nothing else matters, certainly not the UN.
  
• So, find some way to draw the Chinese into the situation, and spin Putin's push into Ukraine as a long-term threat to China. Not sure who to make that work. It seems like a total "long-shot".
  
• Perhaps get China to commit to "peace-keeping" forces in Eastern Ukraine? "Chinese peace-keepers" sounds like an oxymoron. So, not sure that could really fly either.
  
• Maybe pressure from China (combined with pressure from the West) could convince others in Russia to get rid of him (short of assassination)?
  

2) Assassination:

• Ideally, make it look like an accident - even if it is a very suspicious and "convenient" one.
  
• Less ideally, have some internal Russian-native group actually do it Russians getting fed-up with Putin and taking him out is certainly better than some outside power doing it.
  
• Even less ideally, do not care how - just get him dead. Obviously, this could back-fire if there is some group of "true believers" in his policies that would then use the assassination as a rallying point to make things even worse.
  

3) Militarily:

• Although Ukraine is not a NATO member, it could certainly request help or protection from NATO. I think there is already a legal frame-work/process in place at NATO for that. But, I do not remember what it is called.
  
• If Ukraine requests it, NATO comes in and occupies airports and military posts in Eastern Ukraine. This would have to happen extremely fast, and without warning! Otherwise, Putin will jump the gun and do it himself first!
  
• US/NATO drones patrol the border between Ukraine and Russia.
  
• US/NATO should fly "combat-air-patrols" over Ukrainian air-space (except Crimea for now) - to prevent any Russian air-assets from being used to support any land invasion.
  
• The danger of course, is that at that point we are basically daring Putin to cross the line - and (you could argue) using NATO forces on ground as human shields (i.e. Putin can not invade without engaging them in combat - and thereby forcing an escalation).
  
• Basically, the cold-war is back at that point (if not already).
  

I welcome other ideas. I hope some thinking like this is going-on in the various members of NATO, etc. In fact, I presume it is. But, the lack of any concrete meaningful action to date - is scaring the heck out of me.

Personally, until someone attacks a NATO country, then its not my concern.

If the Ukraine decided to remain out of NATO, then they did it for a reason. Why would we give a rats ... about those whom have basically told us to go away? Will Russia benefit from their decision? sure..but hey, rough world..thats why we have alliances.

reply to post by EnhancedInterrogator


I believe that economic pressure, at least for now, is the best route. there's been no shortage of articles, etc., stating Putin's connection with the Russian mafia and funneling upwards of 20 Billion into private accounts outside Russia.

Between Norway's oil production and U.S. natural gas surplus, Russian leverage over the EU. can be largely negated.

Unfortunately, EU won't seriously move without U.S. in a leadership role and that's not happening until the next Presidential elections.

Putin has about a three year window if he takes it slow and easy. I'm advising all my siblings to become priests well in advance of any potential draft....

Jesus you people just will not give it a rest. You realize that tactics used to take Crimea are the exact same tactics the protestors and the Right Sector used in taking Kiev. Open you GD eyes and see the hypocracy you spew.

As far as this so called, 'Hitler style takeover of Europe' you all keep preaching Putin in carrying out; well. Im waiting. Where is it? Putin has been 'prepping to roll tanks across Europe' with troops on the border of Ukraine now for almost a month. This invasion you warmongers are hopinh for is not happening. It would have already. Get over it, Putin doesnt even have his eyes on all of Ukraine let alone other countries.

Im also curious how you got this information about Putin/Russia's intentions. Are you psychic? Do you know something we don't?

Newsflash people. Putin is not taking over Europe. As far as Stalins thinking of 'buffer states' I can agree with you there. But can you really blame the Russians for their sentiment can you?

NATO taking Ukraine and placing missiles there is just llike the Cuban Missile Crisis but it is fine and dandy when the West does it! Jesus people.

once again, for the record I do not agree with what Russia and Putin did in the Crimea.

But get over it. Does not meam 'MERIKA has gotta go to war again. If Putin takes Poland or any NATO country I will kindly come back here and apologize for my words and being wrong. But it wont happen in the real world. This isnt your WWIII fantasy

EnhancedInterrogator

I am so tired of people saying "do not compare Putin to Hitler (or Stalin)"! READ YOUR HISTORY PEOPLE!

but this guy has got to be stopped. The best I can think of is to have him assassinated. but who knows if there is some inner-core of "true believers" in this practice who could continue it or escalate it after his assassination.

So, find some way to draw the Chinese into the situation, and spin Putin's push into Ukraine as a long-term threat to China. Not sure who to make that work. It seems like a total "long-shot".

--you do realize that Russia fought AGAINST the Nazis right?

America's police state looks more like Nazis to me, and the majority of the world.

Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, torture (lost the moral high ground on this one, and destroyed the reputation of liberty), NSA, CIA, drone strikes, etc..

China?
Who is China neighbored with?
Who is China also concerned about being encircled by militarily?
When has Russia attacked China in any way?

Assassinate? pfft, you do mention the others in the shadows waiting to take the torch from Putin. that is a given, the people running that country have a belly full of anger regarding the last cold war. Making a martyr of Putin will be a fool's errand beyond pale.

If America went to Ukraine and started ww3, the Chinese would ally with Russia and NK would SURELY join in. they would WAX our butts, regardless of the allies. the US was stopped in the Korean war by NK alone, BEFORE 50+ years of full on prep to win the next time.

Democracy? If the people in part of the Ukraine CHOOSE to join Russia, that is DEMOCRACY!

you think the USA should intervene against that, it is a LOSING scenario from the face to the end

How About:

4) Nothing.

I honestly can't believe you're calling for the assassination of a foreign leader...who are you? The State Department??
Sorry to break it to you, but there are a lot worse than Putin out there....

reply to post by EnhancedInterrogator


So Russia cannot annex Crimea which was also voted in by the people of Crimea yet the USA can make fraudulent claims about WMD's and other assorted accusations and invade countries like, Iraq (over a million dead), Afghanistan and somehow justify it? I think you people need to get your head's out of your arses. You's are starting to sound like brainwashed NAZI civilian's.

reply to post by EnhancedInterrogator


What to *DO* about, Ukraine ? Crimea ? Putin? Gee ! I don't know. You don't live in Ukraine, so I guess you should keep your nose out of it!

S&F I don't think anybody can dispute the similarities and tactics used here, quite ironic how Putin and Russians can claim Ukraine's are Nazis, it's like Gaddafi when he called his own people protesting on the streets rats and terrorists in order to justify killing his own people and the opposition off, Assad did the same in Syria too


I think the west is well aware of Russia's aggressive moves In to Ukraine but I don't think WWIII is on the cards just yet, only an aggressive move towards a NATO member could spark that or a Chinese aggressive move into Taiwan or Japan or any other surrounding china tbh

Ukraine is and alway has been a buffer zone for East and west, and has always been pillaged and plundered by the Russians for centuries, IMO eventually Ukraine will fully join the EU and NATO just as others who suffered under the brutal Soviet Union did...

In the short term, Russia has some cards to play because the EU's pit some trust in to a newly formed Russian federation and become dependant on her convenient energy resources

In the mid term, The West once agains learn Russia is still very much a threat and hasn't changed at all since it's soviet days, and gets to enforce more and more sanctions and economic hurt

In the long term, Russia finds itself with decreased profit form energy deals, and severely weakened economy and an even stronger NATO

So there's no need for NATO to response to Russia as of yet, the ball is firmly in the western worlds court

However the game changer is Eastern Ukraine...

Russia might be desperate and crazy enough to attempt yet more land grabbing, should this happen I'm still on the fence about the possible outcomes...

The Western world could further use it to shame Russia, and resort to tougher faster actions and responses, or it could however come to Ukraine's aid with military intervention, either way both of these options are damaging for both sides and the world economy but I don't think it will turn thermo nuclear,

13th Zodiac
reply to post by EnhancedInterrogator

 

What to *DO* about, Ukraine ? Crimea ? Putin? Gee ! I don't know. You don't live in Ukraine, so I guess you should keep your nose out of it!

Ukraine is pleading to the international community for help tho so? Ignore them?

TritonTaranis

13th Zodiac
reply to post by EnhancedInterrogator

 

What to *DO* about, Ukraine ? Crimea ? Putin? Gee ! I don't know. You don't live in Ukraine, so I guess you should keep your nose out of it!

Ukraine is pleading to the international community for help tho so? Ignore them?

wrong,
PART of the Ukraine is pleading for help.

and part is pleading to become part of Russia. Ukraine is just mad that half their own people want join Russia

reply to post by TritonTaranis


You do realise that them peaceful protesters in Syria were running around with machine guns and killing police officers? I wouldn't call them peaceful protesters, I would call them criminals and murderers. And now through Saudi Arabia, the USA is indirectly involved with what has happened there also all because they want a Western friendly government in control of Syria.

HanzHenry

TritonTaranis

13th Zodiac
reply to post by EnhancedInterrogator

 

What to *DO* about, Ukraine ? Crimea ? Putin? Gee ! I don't know. You don't live in Ukraine, so I guess you should keep your nose out of it!

Ukraine is pleading to the international community for help tho so? Ignore them?

wrong,
PART of the Ukraine is pleading for help.

and part is pleading to become part of Russia. Ukraine is just mad that half their own people want join Russia

This basically sums up the situation IMO. I think the protestors who overthrew Kiev as well as the West and the Right Sector folks GREATLY underestimated how many of their own countrymen they were alienating without a say. With this new 48hrs deadline the new government is simply very pissed that their own people want to split and are being so adamant about it...

I for one welcome this deadline. Two days from now when the protests still rage on and the tanks have arrived we will finally see the TRUE face of the new powers in Kiev. I for one am very curious as to what the crackdoen will look like as I honestly do not know quite yet what to think
yet.


Of course Western media will say the lot of the protestors are Russian spec ops which justifies any actions taken....Idk, honestly there probably are some Russian units in there just as there were other interests units in Ukraine.


What I have to add about these accusations is, watch the protest videos from Eastern Ukraine. Hell half these people have gray hair! You cannot tell me that is not a majority of pissed off ordinary citizens...

TritonTaranis
Ukraine is pleading to the international community for help tho so? Ignore them?

The Ukraine was where Russia was founded. To me this is no-one else's business except Russia and Ukraine and if the international community want to make a deal of it, then drop the bomb otherwise shut up and stay out of it.

lightedhype
You realize that tactics used to take Crimea are the exact same tactics the protestors and the Right Sector used in taking Kiev. Open you GD eyes and see the hypocracy you spew.

Since when did Maidan ask NATO to come and annex them from Pro Russian Yanukovich?

The difference is is no foreign troops occupied Kiev

And for a good reason...they didn't need to

Russia illegally invaded and occupied Crimea shutting down Ukraine's ability to stabilise its own internal affairs and continues to attempt destabilisation in the East, this is illegal and violate so many UN laws and is in breach of Russia's commitment to the Budapest memorandum

168617

TritonTaranis
Ukraine is pleading to the international community for help tho so? Ignore them?

The Ukraine was where Russia was founded. To me this is no-one else's business except Russia and Ukraine and if the international community want to make a deal of it, then drop the bomb otherwise shut up and stay out of it.

edit on 9-4-2014 by 168617 because: (no reason given)

Wrong it's Ukraine's business only,

Russia does not have the right to intervene in any other countries internal affairs Ukraine has had its arms tied by Russia though threats

When people see a bully near on a guy, they don't just listen to the bullies little minion and warnings to keep out of it, they go teach the bully a lesson

HanzHenry
China?

Who is China neighbored with?
Who is China also concerned about being encircled by militarily?
When has Russia attacked China in any way?

Really?

Sino-Soviet Border Conflict

The Sino-Soviet border conflict (中苏边界冲突) was a seven-month undeclared military conflict between the Soviet Union and China at the height of the Sino-Soviet split in 1969. The most serious of these border clashes occurred in March 1969 in the vicinity of Zhenbao Island (珍宝岛) on the Ussuri River, also known as Damanskii Island (Остров Даманский) in Russia. Chinese historians most commonly refer to the conflict as the Zhenbao Island incident (珍宝岛自卫反击战) [3] The conflict was finally resolved with future border demarcations.

The best way to solve this issue is for China to take a leaf out of Putin's book, and annex further land in the far east of Russia.

China could do with the extra land, there are many Chinese citizens there in Russian areas that China could annexe, control the new border militarily and enforce Putin style dodgy referendums......

reply to post by EnhancedInterrogator


Diplomatic: Chinese are very clever. They know they will be NEXT if Russia is under the boot. Forget about China.

Assassination: You can try but if something gets leaked, then outcomes can be very violent.

Military: Expect the NATO boys to give their body dimensions to be wrapped in nicely fitting body bags. In Iraq, where insurgents had no support from any country, they took 5000 American lives i.e. 500+ each year. In Ukraine, the guerrillas WILL HAVE Russia's complete support. Expect lots of hits from Vintorez, SV-98s and Zastava-M91, along with Kornets killing BMDs and Strykers and even short range cruise missiles.

Vietnam II any one?

Btw, why Zastava-M91? because there are thousands of Serbians wanting to settle accounts with NATO for some past transactions.

Lastly, Russian cyberdudes hacking the drones will make Ukraine a drone graveyard in two weeks at most.

168617
reply to post by TritonTaranis

 

You do realise that them peaceful protesters in Syria were running around with machine guns and killing police officers? I wouldn't call them peaceful protesters, I would call them criminals and murderers. And now through Saudi Arabia, the USA is indirectly involved with what has happened there also all because they want a Western friendly government in control of Syria.

I'm well aware of the continuous events in Syria I have followed them extremely carefully since Tunisia and the birth of the Arab spring to which Syria was a continuation off,

If we go back to the very beginning of Syria's problems you will see that widespread large anti government protests was the catalyst

Suria is a 90% Sunni Muslims country with a minority 10% in power, almost 90% of Assads regime are a minority

This was the spark

Russia and Assads regime refused to step down as leaders did in Tunisia, Egypt and other parts of the ME

Assad then began to shot at those peaceful protesters giving birth to the rebel fight back

Feel free to check these facts

CAIRO — Military troops opened fire during protests in the southern part of Syria on Friday and killed peaceful demonstrators, according to witnesses and news reports, hurtling the strategically important nation along the same trajectory that has altered the landscape of power across the Arab world.


Reuters Syrians shout slogans in support of protesters in the city of Deraa, during a protest in Mouadamieh, near Damascus on Friday. Tens of thousands of demonstrators in the southern city of Dara’a and in other cities and towns around the nation took to the streets in protest, defying a state that has once again demonstrated its willingness to use lethal force.

Of course just as in Syria, Russia is pulling the same stunts to protect there puppets and military installations

I think this is extremely wrong considering over 150,000 civilians have died in Syria and the turmoil and ruin Russia has created in Ukraine all for its own gains and interests

reply to post by lightedhype


Hey, I find this a violation of international law.

BAGHDAD —

Car bombs hit several mostly Shiite neighborhoods of Baghdad and a town south of the Iraqi capital on Wednesday, killing at least 34 people and wounding dozens, officials said, the latest bout of violence ahead of the country’s first parliamentary elections since the 2011 U.S. troop withdrawal.

No group immediately claimed responsibility for the attacks but the bombings bore the hallmarks of an al-Qaida-inspired group and other Sunni insurgents, who frequently use suicide and car bombs to target public areas and government buildings in their bid to undermine confidence in the Shiite-led government.

Al-Qaida inspired groups hey, the same one's that were accused of the 9/11 attacks.

the latest bout of violence ahead of the country’s first parliamentary elections since the 2011 U.S. troop withdrawal.

Wait a minute, Us troops withdrew from Iraq knowing that the people suspected of committing 9/11 were openly operating in Iraq and to this day still are? If the people they are looking for are there, why didn't they stay and finish them off? So let's put this into perspective. The USA toppled Saddam, there was pretty much no resistance. Saddam dies, and after that the country is loaded with terrorists. To go with that, the USA find it appropriate to withdraw and say "Job done" when car bombs and terrorists are still running rampant in Iraq. Can you explain to me the tactics used in defeating terrorism because I am confused.