Ukraine Rejects Russian Gas Imports Before Putin Energy Meeting

the2ofusr1
reply to post by strawburry

 

Add to the fact in a strange twist that Russia has agreed to accept Iran oil .Oil is considered as good as gold .Russia will probably sell them weapons as well as help with there Nuclear needs ...Its a win win for both of them ...

I'm not really sure this is a twist.. The last I saw Russia never stopped importing Iranian oil. If anything to sanctions by the west / independent nations on Iranian oil should be a clear signal to Putin that nations are willing to, essentially, hurt their own economy rather than deal with the government of a nation whose ideology is the complete opposite of the expected norm. This is a lesson Russia is going to learn the hard way.

Even in this thread we see the same mindset - Nations reliant on Russia for energy would be insane to walk away from it. Its a knee jerk response that does not take into account the community as a whole.

strawburry
You also forget, Russia IS a NATO partner, in the Partner for Peace program (look out partner for peace members, next time it could be YOU! - Sign up for FULL membership TODAY!) or in Mob parlance, Gee thats a nice country you got there, shame something were to happen to it. Join us and we can gurantee your safety. - Signed, NATO.

Actually no, Russia is not any longer. NATO has ended all military and civilian cooperation with Russia. The only level left is at the Ambassador level at NATO headquarters. Ironically enough a courtesy never extended to their NATIO counterparts based in Russia.

NATO orders end to cooperation with Russia

BRUSSELS (AP) — NATO's foreign ministers ordered an end to civilian and military cooperation with Russia on Tuesday and told their generals and admirals to quickly figure out ways to better protect alliance members that feel threatened by Vladimir Putin's Kremlin.

The 28-member alliance, the keystone of U.S. and European security since the end of World War II, was reacting to its most serious crisis in years: Russia's unilateral annexation of Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula, which the U.S. and its allies have condemned as an illegal land grab.

strawburry
If you think you are gona switch over night, or indeed even in the next couple of years off dependency of Russia, you have lost your marbles.

And to assume that a group of nations cannot work together to remove Russia as their energy supplier is insane. One nation, Russia, cannot overcome the cooperation / technology research / partnership of more than 50 +/- nations.

The days of Europe being dealt with as individual nations by Russia is over with, just like the cold war. Putin has lost his chance to bring Russia into the 21st century and as he is now seeing first hand, the doctrine from the cold war does not work in the 21st century.

If anything history should be a source of reference. Specifically the number of years that western aligned nations went without Soviet / Russia energy resources. The world did not end then and it wont end now. Although Russia's self image as a superpower ended with the end of the cold war and wont be coming back anytime soon.

How long does it take to make a ship to transport GAS fromt he US?

Probably a few years per ship, not to mention the wait time due to current orders being made.

US has no where near the CAPACITY and LOGISTICS to ship GAS to the EU.

You would need a few hundred ships continually shipping gas.

Shale gas, that is going down well with the populus of countries I hear.

All you are going to have with that is bad health, dirty water, taps on fire et al. Shale gas will not meet the capacity without destroying your own country in the process. Mass protests et al. once earth tremors begin and water becomes dirty.

How long to get a piple line to the country, and one would need many pipelines from all those other suppliers. Talk about a nightmare.

It would take the EU decades to ween itself off Russian gas. Anyway Russia doesn't care, they can trade east.

Germany is the FOURTH largest economy in the world. They export a LOT to Russia, I think a lot of businesses have some sway with politicans. Germany is the backbone of the EU and once their economy goes down the #ter, the rest of the EU will suffer BIG.


I cannot wait until we have an alternative to SWIFT/IBAN network, it is too expensive to send money over SWIFT anyway, I would rather use the BRICS alternative that you can be sure is pretty much soon to be turned on. About time we got some alternative network.

strawburry
How long does it take to make a ship to transport GAS fromt he US?
Probably a few years per ship, not to mention the wait time due to current orders being made.

give or take around 30 days +/- - Depending on the cargo type and the receiving facility location.

strawburry
US has no where near the CAPACITY and LOGISTICS to ship GAS to the EU.

I don't understand why you guys are such insular thinkers. You do understand that trade between nations utilizes vessels from more than just those 2 nations right? You guys seem fixed on just the US, while you completely ignore the private industry in addition to government vessels / foreign businesses across the globe.

This is one of the reasons you will see on tv, as an example the oil cargo vessel seized by special forces at the request of the Libyan government, where the vessel picks up cargo in one country, with a destination to a second country, all while flying the flag of a 3rd party.

Please, educate yourself and quit solely fixing on just the US. It undermines your claims / credibility when you do not take into account all aspects.

strawburry
You would need a few hundred ships continually shipping gas.

Which occurs on a daily basis by companies all over the globe.

strawburry
Shale gas, that is going down well with the populus of countries I hear.

Some countries allow it, some do not. It depends on the environmental laws of each nation. However your comment here seems off base so please clarify why you brought it up and in what regards it fits into the topic.

strawburry
All you are going to have with that is bad health, dirty water, taps on fire et al. Shale gas will not meet the capacity without destroying your own country in the process. Mass protests et al. once earth tremors begin and water becomes dirty.

Kindly link to the source where you got this information from please.

strawburry
How long to get a piple line to the country, and one would need many pipelines from all those other suppliers. Talk about a nightmare.

Depends on what country in question and type of pipeline. If you are referring to Russia their nightmare scenario just started since the pipelines they want to build run through NATO countries now. Russia relies on its energy export sector for a chunk of its GDP (with energy being 25% for Russia). What happens to Russia when nations develop their own sources and stops using Russia?

what then?

strawburry
It would take the EU decades to ween itself off Russian gas. Anyway Russia doesn't care, they can trade east.

A claim that has not been supported. By all means, link me to where you get this info . time table from.

strawburry
Germany is the FOURTH largest economy in the world. They export a LOT to Russia, I think a lot of businesses have some sway with politicans. Germany is the backbone of the EU and once their economy goes down the #ter, the rest of the EU will suffer BIG.

While it may be the 4th largest economy in the world, their annual trade balance with Russia accounts for 60 billion dollars.

strawburry
I cannot wait until we have an alternative to SWIFT/IBAN network, it is too expensive to send money over SWIFT anyway, I would rather use the BRICS alternative that you can be sure is pretty much soon to be turned on. About time we got some alternative network.

Ah yes... BRICs will make all the difference... nothing like 5 nations who are all members of the G20 to fix things.

A LNG tanker can be built in 30 days?

Got a link? I would be very very interested to see this.

They are far more complex than a regular oil tanker.

strawburry
A LNG tanker can be built in 30 days?

Got a link? I would be very very interested to see this.

They are far more complex than a regular oil tanker.

My apologies. I misread that and thought you asked the time it takes for a vessel to go from the US east coast to a European port.

Anywhere between 7 and 12 months, depending on type of vessel, size of vessel and containment system inside the vessel. For the US there appears to be about 350+ gas / liquid gas / LNG / etc in service with another 72 to be built.

The one question not being asked is what other nations are building, who those orders are for, and how many vessels of the type above are currently being operated by other nations / companies?

How many vessels can be safely retrofitted for limited time use until newer vessels come into the fleet?

Finally the one area people have not touched is the focus on production of vessels to fill a gap created in the market by removing a market. While 72 are under construction, what is the total build capacity of the industry in affected nations? How high can that capacity go when focus is shifted to allow cargo vessels of the types needed to be given build priority?

You cannot discount a nations exports based on equal footing logic.

Xcathdra

strawburry
A LNG tanker can be built in 30 days?

Got a link? I would be very very interested to see this.

They are far more complex than a regular oil tanker.

My apologies. I misread that and thought you asked the time it takes for a vessel to go from the US east coast to a European port.

Anywhere between 7 and 12 months, depending on type of vessel, size of vessel and containment system inside the vessel. For the US there appears to be about 350+ gas / liquid gas / LNG / etc in service with another 72 to be built.

The one question not being asked is what other nations are building, who those orders are for, and how many vessels of the type above are currently being operated by other nations / companies?

How many vessels can be safely retrofitted for limited time use until newer vessels come into the fleet?

Finally the one area people have not touched is the focus on production of vessels to fill a gap created in the market by removing a market. While 72 are under construction, what is the total build capacity of the industry in affected nations? How high can that capacity go when focus is shifted to allow cargo vessels of the types needed to be given build priority?

You cannot discount a nations exports based on equal footing logic.

Whilst you are there, check the capacity of each LNG tanker AND how much consumption the EU uses in aggregate, and then work out how many LNG tankers are needed, and count that in 7-12 months and that keep in mind the Gas consumption in the EU is GROWING not SHRINKING at a very high rate, AND, how long it takes to ship (30 days as you say) then offload to storage et al. ALSO, keep in mind that exports will reduce the local consumption availability, and now you can see why it will take decades.

Unless they can bomb the shat out of Syria et al. and then the time to get a pipeline online, and securing them from disruption in the bombed out countries.

strawburry
Whilst you are there, check the capacity of each LNG tanker AND how much consumption the EU uses in aggregate, and then work out how many LNG tankers are needed, and count that in 7-12 months and that keep in mind the Gas consumption in the EU is GROWING not SHRINKING at a very high rate, AND, how long it takes to ship (30 days as you say) then offload to storage et al. ALSO, keep in mind that exports will reduce the local consumption availability, and now you can see why it will take decades.

Unless they can bomb the shat out of Syria et al. and then the time to get a pipeline online, and securing them from disruption in the bombed out countries.

Any reason why storage facilities don't factor into your scenario here? In addition to land based storage you also have companies that have sea based storage facilities.

Newer/Current tankers have can hold around 100k-150k with some of the newer vessels able to accommodate up to 250k.

As an example -
Golar LNG Transportation

Again, your position in this area is based on the status quo. Companies can refocus their fleets in order to plug gaps, charter companies can be contracted to assist, storage facilities can be increased.

What happens when companies contracted with Gazprom / other Russian gas companies end their contracts to assist their home countries? Or what if those countries offer more money from western nations to ship for them and drop Russia?

Exactly how will Russia fill the gap if Europe goes elsewhere for their energy needs? Exactly how will Russia fulfill current contracts with no means / severely restricted means of transportation?

My point is this action affects both sides, which is something you seem to ignore.

reply to post by TritonTaranis

How about Qatar? And that new pipeline?

Things in Syria haven't being going well for the Qatar regime state.

Agent_USA_Supporter
reply to post by TritonTaranis

 

How about Qatar? And that new pipeline?

Things in Syria haven't being going well for the Qatar regime state.

That will change when the minority Assad government falls.

besides there is nothing stopping a pipeline from going through Israel or Lebanon is there?

Saudi has already begun fixing their pipelines that head to the Suez area in preparation of a possible shut down of the straights by Iran.

The mindset a pipeline must go through this country or that country is narrow minded to say the least.