Ukraine Rejects Russian Gas Imports Before Putin Energy Meeting

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posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 01:25 PM
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Ukraine Rejects Russian Gas Imports Before Putin Energy Meeting


Ukraine is halting natural gas imports from Russia over price “aggression” before the world’s biggest exporter of the fuel cuts supplies, raising the risk of disrupted flows to Europe.

Ukraine will stop buying gas this month until a price agreement is reached, Energy Minister Yuri Prodan said in Kiev today. Russian President Vladimir Putin is scheduled to meet advisers and cabinet members to discuss energy cooperation with the neighboring country, which owes more than $2.2 billion for gas supplies through March.

About 15 percent of Europe’s supplies flow through Ukraine’s pipelines from Russia, making the country a linchpin in the continent’s energy security. Ukraine, which buys half its gas from Moscow-based OAO Gazprom, is seeking alternative supplies, including imports from Europe. Putin has used gas as a tool to pressure the government in Kiev to abandon attempts to reorient the economy toward the European Union.

“Europe can relax until September,” Alexander Paraschiy, an analyst at Concorde Capital in Kiev, said by phone. “If Poland and Hungary begin gas deliveries to Ukraine soon, like last year, Ukraine can survive without Russian gas and transit to Europe won’t suffer.”


Click link for remainder of article.

An interesting turn of events...

Since the Russian energy sector accounts for 25% of Russia's revenues I am curious about the impact this is going to have on those figures. The EU supports Ukraine's decision to end the shipments from Russia with Slovakia and Ukraine in talks to work out the technicalities for a reverse pipeline.

The energy sector has been discussed in a few threads with each side of the coin giving their opinion. Now that we have something more definitive a few questions -

Thoughts / speculation on what Russia's response might be on canceling the agreement?
Thoughts / speculation on Russia's response, if any, towards Slovakia?
With Russia ending the cheap natural gas discounts for Ukraine and sending the price of NG thru the roof do you think Ukraine is within its right to end the agreement?
Do you think Russia was within its rights to set the huge increase in price?
Do you think Russia acted appropriately by using NG as an economic weapon (Russia says they want this, EU or Ukraine tells them no, so Russia interrupts the supply heading to Ukraine/Europe)?




posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 01:32 PM
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Hope they remember to pay their almost 2 BILLION dollar BILL for USED gas.

Good thing Russia has a Northern Pipeline and Southern Pipeling comming online next year.

Ukraine is a bad customer, 2 years debt of almost 2 BILLION dollars.

I would cut them off too.

I also hope Ukraine remember to pay China and Russia the BILLIONS loaned.

What is left in Ukraine and to be Ukrainian about? Nothing, pillaged by the IMF and US now.

No GOLD reserves in the country anymore, Pensions Cut in half, Medicine prices UP, I would want to leave too.


I think Ukraine just cut off their nose despite their face, cut off the hand that fed them.

I honestly don't think Russia care about Ukraine and Gas supplies to them anymore, this is obvious by the North and South pipelines in the works for years.

edit on 9-4-2014 by strawburry because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 01:34 PM
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Xcathdra
Ukraine Rejects Russian Gas Imports Before Putin Energy Meeting


Ukraine is halting natural gas imports from Russia over price “aggression” before the world’s biggest exporter of the fuel cuts supplies, raising the risk of disrupted flows to Europe.

Ukraine will stop buying gas this month until a price agreement is reached, Energy Minister Yuri Prodan said in Kiev today. Russian President Vladimir Putin is scheduled to meet advisers and cabinet members to discuss energy cooperation with the neighboring country, which owes more than $2.2 billion for gas supplies through March.

About 15 percent of Europe’s supplies flow through Ukraine’s pipelines from Russia, making the country a linchpin in the continent’s energy security. Ukraine, which buys half its gas from Moscow-based OAO Gazprom, is seeking alternative supplies, including imports from Europe. Putin has used gas as a tool to pressure the government in Kiev to abandon attempts to reorient the economy toward the European Union.

“Europe can relax until September,” Alexander Paraschiy, an analyst at Concorde Capital in Kiev, said by phone. “If Poland and Hungary begin gas deliveries to Ukraine soon, like last year, Ukraine can survive without Russian gas and transit to Europe won’t suffer.”


Click link for remainder of article.

An interesting turn of events...

Since the Russian energy sector accounts for 25% of Russia's revenues I am curious about the impact this is going to have on those figures. The EU supports Ukraine's decision to end the shipments from Russia with Slovakia and Ukraine in talks to work out the technicalities for a reverse pipeline.

The energy sector has been discussed in a few threads with each side of the coin giving their opinion. Now that we have something more definitive a few questions -

Thoughts / speculation on what Russia's response might be on canceling the agreement?
Thoughts / speculation on Russia's response, if any, towards Slovakia?
With Russia ending the cheap natural gas discounts for Ukraine and sending the price of NG thru the roof do you think Ukraine is within its right to end the agreement?
Do you think Russia was within its rights to set the huge increase in price?
Do you think Russia acted appropriately by using NG as an economic weapon (Russia says they want this, EU or Ukraine tells them no, so Russia interrupts the supply heading to Ukraine/Europe)?


I thought I just read an article that stated their price was the same as everyone else got (although it was higher than before)...ill try to find it.



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 01:36 PM
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Xcathdra
Slovakia and Ukraine in talks to work out the technicalities for a reverse pipeline.

The energy sector has been discussed in a few threads with each side of the coin giving their opinion. Now that we have something more definitive a few questions -

Thoughts / speculation on Russia's response, if any, towards Slovakia?
With Russia ending the cheap natural gas discounts for Ukraine and sending the price of NG thru the roof do you think Ukraine is within its right to end the agreement?
Do you think Russia was within its rights to set the huge increase in price?
Do you think Russia acted appropriately by using NG as an economic weapon (Russia says they want this, EU or Ukraine tells them no, so Russia interrupts the supply heading to Ukraine/Europe)?


the Slovakia pipeline may be the victim of 'natural disaster', a plane may 'accidentally' crash into it, ...
Ukraine is within their right IF the agreement isn't in breach by either side.
Russia played kinda dirty (US style) in gouging.
what isn't a weapon these days?



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 01:49 PM
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cosmicexplorer
I thought I just read an article that stated their price was the same as everyone else got (although it was higher than before)...ill try to find it.


Its in the op -


Russia canceled discounts it had offered to Kiev, raising the price to $485 per 1,000 cubic meters in two steps this month from $268.50 in the first quarter. Gazprom has said Ukraine may be moved to advance payments over its debt and will have to pay for deliveries to avoid a supply cut.



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 01:58 PM
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HanzHenry
the Slovakia pipeline may be the victim of 'natural disaster', a plane may 'accidentally' crash into it, ...

Possibly but then again constantly discussing these plans out in the open could possibly create a Julian Assange situation. In his instance he was such a high profile person that should he turn up dead somewhere people would assume it came from the US government (or other government he leaked documents from, including Russia if I am not mistaken).

Discussing the reverse pipeline in the media, only to have it destroyed, would be a PR nightmare for Russia.



HanzHenry
Ukraine is within their right IF the agreement isn't in breach by either side.

Then let me ask - Why should the current Ukraine government pay for any of it when Putin refuses to acknowledge them as the lawful government?



HanzHenry
Russia played kinda dirty (US style) in gouging.

Of course.. the US and other nations to the same thing. The underlying issue though was Russian stopping Ukraine Ngas, and by extension, affecting a large chunk of Europe.



HanzHenry
what isn't a weapon these days?

Fair point.



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 02:02 PM
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strawburry
Hope they remember to pay their almost 2 BILLION dollar BILL for USED gas.

Any chance Ukraine can submit a bill to Russian for all of the military assets Russia took when they invaded Ukraine?



strawburry
Good thing Russia has a Northern Pipeline and Southern Pipeling comming online next year.
I think Ukraine just cut off their nose despite their face, cut off the hand that fed them.
I honestly don't think Russia care about Ukraine and Gas supplies to them anymore, this is obvious by the North and South pipelines in the works for years.


Correct me if I am wrong but those 2 pipelines run through EU / NATO countries. What if those countries end the pipeline? What then?



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 02:31 PM
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" Russia has just dropped another bombshell, announcing not only the de-coupling of its trade from the dollar, but also that its hydrocarbon trade will in the future be carried out in rubles and local currencies of its trading partners – no longer in dollars – see Voice of Russia
Russia’s trade in hydrocarbons amounts to about a trillion dollars per year. Other countries, especially the BRICS and BRCIS-associates (BRICSA) may soon follow suit and join forces with Russia, abandoning the ‘petro-dollar’ as trading unit for oil and gas. This could amount to tens of trillions in loss for demand of petro-dollars per year (US GDP about 17 trillion dollars – December 2013) – leaving an important dent in the US economy would be an understatement.

Added to this is the declaration today by Russia’s Press TV – China will re-open the old Silk Road as a new trading route linking Germany, Russia and China," www.informationclearinghouse.info...



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 02:41 PM
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Xcathdra

strawburry
Hope they remember to pay their almost 2 BILLION dollar BILL for USED gas.

Any chance Ukraine can submit a bill to Russian for all of the military assets Russia took when they invaded Ukraine?



strawburry
Good thing Russia has a Northern Pipeline and Southern Pipeling comming online next year.
I think Ukraine just cut off their nose despite their face, cut off the hand that fed them.
I honestly don't think Russia care about Ukraine and Gas supplies to them anymore, this is obvious by the North and South pipelines in the works for years.


Correct me if I am wrong but those 2 pipelines run through EU / NATO countries. What if those countries end the pipeline? What then?



Europe won't end their dependance on Russia's energy any time in the next 30 years, if you think a few ships of liquified gas from the US to Europe is going to fix it, omg please, get me a chair im gona fall laughing.

1) you dont have enough ships, and if you did, the price of shipping would be too high and consumers wont pay the price hike.
2) you dont have the processing capacity for it
3) you cant even fuel yourselves
4) Shale gas yeah, thats going down a treat, as long as its in somebody elses back yard, in this case, sure, drill shale gas in the US as long as its not in my country


You're off your rocker and lost a grip on reality if you buy those political sound bites of the US gona fill the EUs gas needs.



You also forget, Russia IS a NATO partner, in the Partner for Peace program (look out partner for peace members, next time it could be YOU! - Sign up for FULL membership TODAY!) or in Mob parlance, Gee thats a nice country you got there, shame something were to happen to it. Join us and we can gurantee your safety. - Signed, NATO.

If you think you are gona switch over night, or indeed even in the next couple of years off dependency of Russia, you have lost your marbles.


edit on 9-4-2014 by strawburry because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 02:50 PM
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Xcathdra

Discussing the reverse pipeline in the media, only to have it destroyed, would be a PR nightmare for Russia.

Then let me ask - Why should the current Ukraine government pay for any of it when Putin refuses to acknowledge them as the lawful government?

Of course.. the US and other nations to the same thing. The underlying issue though was Russian stopping Ukraine Ngas, and by extension, affecting a large chunk of Europe.


PR, that is not of any concern to Russia, as they view the PR from 'our side' as propaganda, and 'their side' of PR will not care. That is the problem with breakdown of diplomacy. It becomes basically a shouting match with 2 opposing views. Neither cares what the other feels or thinks.

Ukraine is already in debt for previous energy. I compare it to my ISP, when i forget to pay i lose the promo discount and after a certain period they cut service until a payment is made.

Europe is enabling the US in surrounding Russia and China due to payoffs of some type. Russia is like "ok, let me remind you we are not a doormat. You want to align with the US in their moves against us? Fine, then you are against us you no longer get the friend treatment"



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 03:53 PM
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strawburry
Hope they remember to pay their almost 2 BILLION dollar BILL for USED gas.

Good thing Russia has a Northern Pipeline and Southern Pipeling comming online next year.


I think Ukraine just cut off their nose despite their face, cut off the hand that fed them.



I think it's the other way round tbh

Ukriane is close enough to the Middle East to buy cheaper liquified gas via the Black Sea while being bailed out by the IMF and the EU

As for the northern and southern pipelines you forgot the EU will also be sourcing it's gas from elsewhere also, so Russia needs to find another customer and build some more pipelines



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 03:55 PM
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TritonTaranis

strawburry
Hope they remember to pay their almost 2 BILLION dollar BILL for USED gas.

Good thing Russia has a Northern Pipeline and Southern Pipeling comming online next year.


I think Ukraine just cut off their nose despite their face, cut off the hand that fed them.



I think it's the other way round tbh

Ukriane is close enough to the Middle East to buy cheaper liquified gas via the Black Sea while being bailed out by the IMF and the EU

As for the northern and southern pipelines you forgot the EU will also be sourcing it's gas from elsewhere also, so Russia needs to find another customer and build some more pipelines


Sourcing gas from elsewhere, such as?

Last news spin was ships steaming gas from the US to EU's gas aid. We all know thats, bovine methane.

Where else? Perhaps some other country will just buy Russia's gas and sell it on rebranded to EU


You forget one major factor, LOGISTICS.



EU gas consumption is not going down anytime soon, in fact, it is not going down at all, it is RISING.

edit on 9-4-2014 by strawburry because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by strawburry
 


Add to the fact in a strange twist that Russia has agreed to accept Iran oil .Oil is considered as good as gold .Russia will probably sell them weapons as well as help with there Nuclear needs ...Its a win win for both of them ...



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 04:12 PM
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This is more political posturing. The west will up the ante and Russia will respond. Its going to get a heck of alot worse!



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 04:13 PM
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This won't last long.

A) The world (the rest of the entire world) does not have the capacity to replace Russian exports.
B) Ukraine makes around $3 billion per year in transit fees from Russian gas going to the rest of Europe.

Easy to be bold about gas in the spring...not so easy once winter starts to come back. And, no, the world will not be able to build the infrastructure necessary to replace Russia's contributions over 1 summer.

Apt (as the season just started)...Winter is coming.



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 06:11 PM
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strawburry

TritonTaranis

strawburry
Hope they remember to pay their almost 2 BILLION dollar BILL for USED gas.

Good thing Russia has a Northern Pipeline and Southern Pipeling comming online next year.


I think Ukraine just cut off their nose despite their face, cut off the hand that fed them.



I think it's the other way round tbh

Ukriane is close enough to the Middle East to buy cheaper liquified gas via the Black Sea while being bailed out by the IMF and the EU

As for the northern and southern pipelines you forgot the EU will also be sourcing it's gas from elsewhere also, so Russia needs to find another customer and build some more pipelines


Sourcing gas from elsewhere, such as?

Last news spin was ships steaming gas from the US to EU's gas aid. We all know thats, bovine methane.

Where else? Perhaps some other country will just buy Russia's gas and sell it on rebranded to EU


You forget one major factor, LOGISTICS.



EU gas consumption is not going down anytime soon, in fact, it is not going down at all, it is RISING.

edit on 9-4-2014 by strawburry because: (no reason given)



Why would anyone else need to buy Russia's gas when there are many competitors for the EU gas deal?

How about Qatar? And that new pipeline?

How about the mother load of shale gas sitting under the EU ?

Shows how much you know









As you can see there are plenty of alternatives and much of the infrastructure needed is already in place or in construction to start the weening off of Russian gas....

And as you can see also Ukraine doesn't need to look far for a cheaper solution



edit on 9-4-2014 by TritonTaranis because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2014 @ 04:02 AM
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reply to post by the2ofusr1
 


Russia and China agreed some time back that trade between their 2 nations would be conducted using local currencies so the comments on dropping the dollar are a bit out of place since its already occurred and has not had a detrimental effect.



posted on Apr, 10 2014 @ 04:05 AM
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strawburry
Europe won't end their dependance on Russia's energy any time in the next 30 years, if you think a few ships of liquified gas from the US to Europe is going to fix it, omg please, get me a chair im gona fall laughing.

I disagree - The bulk of European countries have laws that prohibit fracking, which is now being reviewed with suggestions to end the ban. Secondly new technology has been developed that can access areas that were previously listed as to expensive to withdraw IE cost to extract would outweigh the return.




strawburry
1) you dont have enough ships, and if you did, the price of shipping would be too high and consumers wont pay the price hike.
2) you dont have the processing capacity for it
3) you cant even fuel yourselves
4) Shale gas yeah, thats going down a treat, as long as its in somebody elses back yard, in this case, sure, drill shale gas in the US as long as its not in my country


You're off your rocker and lost a grip on reality if you buy those political sound bites of the US gona fill the EUs gas needs.

Care to support the above with sources on where you got your info from?



You also forget, Russia IS a NATO partner, in the Partner for Peace program (look out partner for peace members, next time it could be YOU! - Sign up for FULL membership TODAY!) or in Mob parlance, Gee thats a nice country you got there, shame something were to happen to it. Join us and we can gurantee your safety. - Signed, NATO.

If you think you are gona switch over night, or indeed even in the next couple of years off dependency of Russia, you have lost your marbles.


edit on 9-4-2014 by strawburry because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2014 @ 04:25 AM
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HanzHenry
PR, that is not of any concern to Russia, as they view the PR from 'our side' as propaganda, and 'their side' of PR will not care. That is the problem with breakdown of diplomacy. It becomes basically a shouting match with 2 opposing views. Neither cares what the other feels or thinks.

By PR I am referring to nations not involved. While I understand what you are saying, there are nations not involved who see both sides. Which side would those nations choose and how much of that decision is based on which of the 2 countries in question would be more detrimental? While Price would have a lot to do with decisions, the other factors are which nations are going to be the most stable / less aggressive?

Those questions apply to both sides btw.



HanzHenry
Ukraine is already in debt for previous energy. I compare it to my ISP, when i forget to pay i lose the promo discount and after a certain period they cut service until a payment is made.

Ending a service over non payment is normal and I agree with it. The issue I see is how can Russia demand Ukraine pay for it when they don't even acknowledge the government in place?

If would be like moving into a house where the prior owner had cable. You move in, the cable gets cut while the cable company demands you pay the bill.



HanzHenry
Europe is enabling the US in surrounding Russia and China due to payoffs of some type. Russia is like "ok, let me remind you we are not a doormat. You want to align with the US in their moves against us? Fine, then you are against us you no longer get the friend treatment"

I see this comment a lot about "surrounding" Russia and to me its the same bs argument about the US surrounding Iran. People make the claims yet have nothing that supports the accusations. Even in the ME the argument they make is based on false info (specifically the US has no forces other than an air detachment in Saudi Arabia. We have withdrawn our forces from Iraq. Yet people ignore those facts and go back to the "surrounded" argument.

In Russia's case it can more easily broken down into the fact that at the hey day of the Soviet Union, they occupied sovereign nations - from Europe to Central Asia. I can not blame those former republics / occupied nations to align with the west after spending half a decade under Soviet / Russian occupation.

Even more so now with a resurgent Russia and a leader who longs for the days of the cold war. Russia likes to make claims that after the collapse NATO would not expand East. Who is Russia or the US to tell sovereign nations who they can and cannot align themselves with? Russia undermines their own position by using force against those countries who have no desire to be a part of the former Soviet Union again.

Everything Putin/ Russia has done since the collapse has had the exact opposite effect of what they want. When you invade a neighboring country and annex part of that country, do you honestly expect those other nations to not to align with an entity that could guarantee their territorial integrity?

The same argument can be applied to resources. A nation has to ask itself - While we need energy resources, and Russia is the closest supplier, is that relationship based on mutual respect? When Russia has issues with Ukraine, the gas stops for all of Europe. The game plan Russia pushes is by shutting the gas off to Ukraine, and by extension Europe, Ukraine will be faced with pressure from both sides.

Russia will get what it wants because Europe will push Ukraine into the Russian view point to restore their own energy reserves. Its that setup that Russia is afraid to lose, and everything to date suggests Russia is doing all they can to prevent what we are seeing now - Europe shopping around for alternative energy suppliers while also reviewing national laws to improve their own energy self reliance.

You remove Russia as an energy supplier and all you have left is a 3rd rate power with no income to make the changes Russia wants.



posted on Apr, 10 2014 @ 04:32 AM
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strawburry
Sourcing gas from elsewhere, such as?

The United States, Canada, Mexico, Middle East, their own nations where current law prohibits extraction (the US still has laws like this on the books).




strawburry
Last news spin was ships steaming gas from the US to EU's gas aid. We all know thats, bovine methane.

So the US / western nations / European union don't have the capability to work together to establish a supply line that is functional and works? European countries are part of a Union, which over the years has allowed Europe to work together for the common good.

This is why the Russia mindset is self destructive. They still view Europe as individual countries and they think they can still play one against the other. The fact Europe is will to sacrifice their energy dependence on Russia, at least to me, speaks volumes. I seriously think Putin did not see this possibility because of the old mindset. Its counter-productive for a nation to take an action that jeopardizes their energy supplies.

That mindset confuses Putin, and as we see he is going to continue making decisions based on a doctrine that is no longer in existence. Every action Russia takes is going to have the opposite effect.



strawburry
Where else? Perhaps some other country will just buy Russia's gas and sell it on rebranded to EU

Why not?



strawburry
You forget one major factor, LOGISTICS.



EU gas consumption is not going down anytime soon, in fact, it is not going down at all, it is RISING.

edit on 9-4-2014 by strawburry because: (no reason given)

I would be careful making an assumption based on information obtained pre crisis. Never underestimate the will of people who are faced with the possibility of a resurgent Soviet Union on their borders. Watching Russian actions and then putting those actions into the same category as "and this is where we get our energy from" can have a sobering effect. It can also create the mindset of energy conservation / new technologies until alternate fuel sources can be located.

Russia places way to much importance on their energy exports, and it is undermining all they are doing.





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