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Obamacare is working!

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posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 12:55 PM
link   
reply to post by xuenchen
 


Well, I would say there is no historical input for accurate numbers. I admit we would be taking a chance for the good of all.

All I can do is follow the evidence of my own real time life and those around me.

Since you are a numbers man, what is the price you place on my life? My health insurance from years ago said a million dollars. So maybe that is the best way to get to your answer.




posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 01:10 PM
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reply to post by HauntWok
 


no, it's not a crock.

what's a crock is the kind of mental inferiority that makes people hide behind political labels, so they can feel like they're part of something...

what's a crock is how people USE political labels to beat people over the head, assassinate their character, ridicule, and vilify ANYONE they disagree with...

what's a crock is how people justify the above behavior with political labels....i guess it makes it easier to be a scumbag, when you paste the correct political label on it...

that's a crock....

there is no "left", there is no "right"

there's right, and there's wrong...there is respect, and there is disrespect..

there is good, and there is evil...to varying degrees.

we believe what we believe, not because of labels, but because it's what's in our hearts....call a spade a spade, be man enough to NOT hide behind political labels...OWN your beliefs.



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 01:14 PM
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reply to post by MOMof3
 


If you want a "price" on your life or mine or anybody else's, it's arrived at by doing the math I would think.

You need to find somebody who can do that.

I've giving enough hints but nobody is seeing the forest.

End of Transmission.



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by xuenchen
 


Well, if you have the answers, why don't you tell me. You did not like mine. How else are you going to come up with numbers if you don't have a value on the commodity or product? You don't. That is why health care issue is different from supplying oil to the masses. That is why you are angry and did that childish "transmission out" thing.



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by MOMof3
 


OK relax.

Give me an hour or so and I'll put it up.

I have a paper somewhere that outlines a "mock" debate with 3 people about universal single-payer in the U.S.

One "in favor of", one "against", and one "neutral".

They made a good case both ways.

I have to find the document and then copy the debate points.

It's 30 pages long so I need to summarize.

Give me a bit and I'll cough up a post.....

Start of Transmission.



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 01:48 PM
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reply to post by xuenchen
 


Transmission Starting. (Arguments are made before Obama.Care)

Comparisons from National Health Expenditures 2012 Highlights


Part One "In Favor" argument:

The Federal government is already paying around 25% of all medical costs according to the report.

The States and Locals pay around 18%.

They should increase Medicare payroll taxes to eventually get enough to pay for everybody.

Action: Increase the 1.45% to 5.8%, But don't include everybody from day 1.

Start with "uninsurable" people first. Get them into MediCare over a two year period and increase payroll tax to 2.5% to pay for it and create a surplus of money.

Leave MediCaid alone for now (for the children).

Pause for comments and discussion

[ more after comments ]

Disclaimer: xuenchen isn't "in favor of" or totally "against". xuenchen is not convinced it would work and not convinced it wouldn't.



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 02:08 PM
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MOMof3
reply to post by xuenchen
 


That is why I believe we will be forced to single payer, it is the only logical conclusion. We (my husband and I) started paying into Soc Sec in 1968 and now pay taxes on our soc sec, and $100 per month for medicare. The point, why can't every citizen, rich or poor, pay $100 per month, since you start paying into the system anyway when you go to work.


a hundred a month would be 50 per paycheck for most americans (the average is pay every two weeks.)

this is what i've been saying....so you take out 100 a month, in conjunction with regulations on pharmaceutical companies, and medical device manufacturers, to bring pricing under control, and you create an independent board of HONEST americans, to manage the funds for the program..

with that much revenue, and the controls on pharma/med-dev, you could care for everyone, and it could be done well..

and it would cost WAY less than what people are paying the useless middlemen(HMOs), so it would result in a small boost in the economy too, because people would find themselves with a little more disposable income...

now, if we could just figure out a way to slim down the federal government, abolish the income tax, and replace it with a fixed, flat rate sales(commerce) tax, that'd be great...people could keep more of their money, decide for themselves how it's spent(imagine that; YOU deciding how your money is spent...crazy, right?), and perhaps be more prosperous....



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by dawnstar
 


That was my concern also the penalties but here in GA that will not be a problem because legislation is been passed about that as GA is one of the states that are against Obamacare.

If you make under 15,000 you will not qualify for anything but Medicaid and if the state you are do not expand Medicaid you will not get anything and penalties will not apply.



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 03:21 PM
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HauntWok
Oh isn't this delightful? I've nearly got all the FOX News fear-hounds already replying their talking points like good little parrots.


Proving my point is so much fun. Nary a real statistic in sight, no sourced data, no real facts, just fear, fear, and more fear!

Isn't it fun? I mean during the early naughts we were steamrolled with fear getting us into two wars. And it worked! So, conservatives feel that this is the way to go. Instead of being the party of small government lower taxes, and limited spending, instead they are a one trick pony. FEAR!

I for one refuse to be afraid. No matter what those idiots over at FOX News tell me.



You sure like putting people into pigeon holes don't you? If someone disagrees with you they are FOX news hounds, hate gays, blacks, etc.
If you notice some of those left leaning folks think you, along with Obamacare are just spewing hot air!
Someone shows you a chart and mentions how Obama came right out and lied and you do nothing but continue to throw cheap shots?
You find making yourself look silly and uninformed ".... so much fun"
You remind me of the guy that runs out of intelligent things to say so you start name-calling... why am I not surprised?



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 06:54 PM
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reply to post by wulff
 


Oh please, be my guest, show me how Obamacare is destroying this nation!

I've seen evidence how people now have an extra bill to pay. And i'll admit. Yea, it's tough, It's a hardship, But like a lot of things, people are well versed at adapting. And this is a good thing to adapt to. In the long run it's going to be beneficial for the entire united states as a whole. Good for that "general welfare" that the Constitution talks about.

This is a collective decision that the people of the United States have made through our representatives. We have collectively decided that it might be a good idea if everyone in this country had equal access to healthcare without bankrupting all of us. Now, instead of going to the ER every time somethings wrong costing ten times more, we can make an appointment with a doctor.

Yea, there's going to be an adjustment period. And sure, there are things that are going to have to be fixed. But, again, it's a start. And a good start to something better for the whole of the country. It's even better for the GDP of this country and better for employers.

Change is hard, and conservatives have always been hard on change. But this is leading to better times ahead for all citizens of this country.

Yea, it's not perfect, but it will get better, these are growing pains, roll with it, learn with it, and collectively, we as a nation are going to perfect this. In the end probably make it better than the rest of the world.

Instead of freaking out and thinking that the country made a decision equates to the country dissolving into madness and a dystopia to which we will never recover. Maybe, remember what our founding fathers went through after the revolution. Separated from our motherland. On our own. Having to deal with a new ideal. It's a scary thought.

But we survived that. And we will survive this.

You have to keep in mind who is telling you this will fail. Those that have a vested interest in making sure that people pay out of pocket for health care if they can afford it. The health insurance companies while getting a ton of new people on the rolls also are going to have to pay out too. And paying out isn't what an insurance company wants to do.

And making sure that the people who have chronic pre existing conditions are able to get the treatment that they need isn't something that insurance companies want to pay for.

There you have it. FOX News wants you to hate this. They have been brainwashing you for years against the idea. It's ingrained in the people's minds that this is a horrible thing. Why does FOX News care? Because of advertisers.

foxnewsboycott.com... foxnewsboycott.com...

Look through that list and you will see why the Right truly doesn't want people in this nation to get health care. It hurts their bottom line.

The costs are going to go down eventually. And when they do, it's going to be better for everyone.



edit on 12-4-2014 by HauntWok because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 08:27 PM
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sorry wulff, but i had to...


HauntWok
Oh please, be my guest, show me how Obamacare is destroying this nation!


it sets a precedent for federal over-reach of authority....if that's not enough, how about the billions of dollars they'll simply TAKE from those who choose not to comply with this lunacy? or how about the increase in costs to the end-user, as a result of having to buy these ridiculous metal-tiered plans?

when corporations and government collude, you have fascism....do you want fascism? i sure as hell don't.



I've seen evidence how people now have an extra bill to pay. And i'll admit. Yea, it's tough, It's a hardship, But like a lot of things, people are well versed at adapting. And this is a good thing to adapt to. In the long run it's going to be beneficial for the entire united states as a whole. Good for that "general welfare" that the Constitution talks about.


the "general welfare" clause in the constitution DOES NOT provide federal authority for a mandate to the people to buy a product...it just doesn't.

sure, any halfwit can twist it to mean that, but common sense will tell you that's not what it was for.

why should we have an extra bill to pay, just because the federal government thinks we should? we shouldn't HAVE TO adapt, it's our money, what right does the federal government have to tell us how we spend it?



This is a collective decision that the people of the United States have made through our representatives. We have collectively decided that it might be a good idea if everyone in this country had equal access to healthcare without bankrupting all of us. Now, instead of going to the ER every time somethings wrong costing ten times more, we can make an appointment with a doctor.


nonsense. this was a decision made in washington, by a relatively small group of people.....the "representatives" didn't read it, and neither did the people. the spinmasters in washington used the media to LIE to the american people about the benefits of this bill, and the companies that wrote the bill bought up votes....

if you think that the people said to their reps "vote for this", you're nuts.

it's funny....before the ACA, i could go to a doctor, and pay him, and everything was fine. so, i mean, how in the hell is the ACA an improvement on that?



Yea, there's going to be an adjustment period. And sure, there are things that are going to have to be fixed. But, again, it's a start. And a good start to something better for the whole of the country. It's even better for the GDP of this country and better for employers.


if you mean it's a good start toward driving HMO profits through the stratosphere, then you're absolutely right...it's easy to make a profit when you have the government holding a gun to the head of all your customers...

if by "GDP", you mean "HMO profit margin", then again, you're right...

i mean, yeah, i guess it's better for employers, because if they bump people down from full time to part time, then they don't hafta provide coverage, and they get to pay their people less, so sure, that's good for the employers, i guess......sucks for the employees though, because now they'll have less money, and STILL hafta buy some B.S. plan.....so the employer wins, the HMOs win, everyone else loses....wonderful deal....



Change is hard, and conservatives have always been hard on change. But this is leading to better times ahead for all citizens of this country.


yes, change is hard...even moreso when it is completely unnecessary change...going backwards is NEVER easy....you predict better times, but i believe that is because you have no clue how any of this works...



Yea, it's not perfect, but it will get better, these are growing pains, roll with it, learn with it, and collectively, we as a nation are going to perfect this. In the end probably make it better than the rest of the world.


you may be able to polish a turd, but that ain't gonna make it smell better...it's still a turd. this is a lousy system, and there is no way it will ever be the best in the world...you're delusional.



Instead of freaking out and thinking that the country made a decision equates to the country dissolving into madness and a dystopia to which we will never recover. Maybe, remember what our founding fathers went through after the revolution. Separated from our motherland. On our own. Having to deal with a new ideal. It's a scary thought.

But we survived that. And we will survive this.


now i KNOW you're deluded.

you actually have the temerity to compare a destructive law, to the formation of a sovereign country? jesus, do you write this crap yourself, or do you have a pro do it for you? if so, i'd fire him/her immediately, because they are making you look EXTREMELY foolish..

the country did not make this decision..government, and industry did...it's textbook fascism. and it's not madness and dystopia we're worried about....it's homelessness, and destitution....



You have to keep in mind who is telling you this will fail. Those that have a vested interest in making sure that people pay out of pocket for health care if they can afford it. The health insurance companies while getting a ton of new people on the rolls also are going to have to pay out too. And paying out isn't what an insurance company wants to do.


any way you slice it, the HMOs make out....they will make more than enough money from this to turn a profit, regardless of increased subscriber payouts.

and exactly what vested interest do i have? and how are people not paying out of pocket for medical services now? whether or not you have insurance, you're still paying...your statement makes no sense.



And making sure that the people who have chronic pre existing conditions are able to get the treatment that they need isn't something that insurance companies want to pay for.


we BOTH know that provision could have passed all on it's own...in fact, i daresay that is the ONLY beneficial provision in the whole goddamn bill...and here's the thing; people got treatment for "pre-existing conditions" before HMOs even existed.....another nonsense point.



There you have it. FOX News wants you to hate this. They have been brainwashing you for years against the idea. It's ingrained in the people's minds that this is a horrible thing. Why does FOX News care? Because of advertisers.

foxnewsboycott.com... foxnewsboycott.com...

Look through that list and you will see why the Right truly doesn't want people in this nation to get health care. It hurts their bottom line.


nice plug...is that YOUR site, or the people you work for?

so basically anyone who disagrees with your misinformed opinion, is a brainwashed fox-watcher?

got a mind-blower for you; i don't watch fox news...and i completely disagree with you....would you like come up with another label?



The costs are going to go down eventually. And when they do, it's going to be better for everyone.


if you HONESTLY think that they're gonna give the keys to the bank back, you're an idiot.



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 08:29 PM
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HauntWok
reply to post by 3u40r15m
 


It's not perfect. it's not.

For one damn you for getting me to reply to this thread!!!


Now to my response.

No it's FAR from perfect that is for sure.



But it's not the apocalypse, world ending, ragnarok doomsday scenario that conservatives are making it out to be.

I don't identify with any party like conservatives and such, all are the same to me. Anyways.... To those who can't afford the insurance and can't get any of the "breaks" offered it IS doomsday world ending stuff. I mean you either get insurance or you get fined? I mean how insane is that concept? If you live on a strict budget and don't get any help and yet you are required to have this insurance, what are you suppose to do? So for those people it is like a world ending scenario but on an individual scale. I know people who are freaking out because they get no assistance and don't qualify for the so called "help" and are quoted with premiums more than a car payment.


I have insurance for the first time in 11 years. It's not going to cost me an arm and a leg. Yes, it's a hit to my budget, but least now I can go get a physical. And maybe I'll luck out and I'll just be ok.

You are one of the lucky ones and that is why you can't see the other side of it. The only people i have seen who like it are those who benefit from it. Which of course is normal. It is nice to have insurance after so long isn't it? I know I have insurance for the first time in 7yrs but it's not thru ObamaCare, it's thru my husbands job. We have high premiums and our deductibles are pretty darn high. I know everything went up in January and I'm not really sure why. It literally doubled and well it sucks. I have had to miss appointments because I can't afford what they want up front. Now imagine you are one of those people who have ObamaCare without any help and you have such a high deductible you can't even afford to use the insurance you have! It's pretty damn depressing. You pay all this money for something you have to have yet can't afford to use. I know people who are in this predicament right now and they are freaking out.

My whole issue with ObamaCare is how can you force someone to get insurance and then penalize them if they don't? How can Obama sit there and say the things he did about keeping your doctor when that is not the case? He blew smoke up everyones rear and said what they wanted to hear. Nobody had a clue about how it would really turn out. I mean wasn't the bill like hundreds of pages long?

I am all for healthcare reform and everyone having access to it BUT the pharmaceutical companies and health care providers charge an obscene amount of money for services. Services that in other countries are a fraction of the cost. Health care here is a business. They make money off of you being sick! Why can't I get insurance to cover herbal supplements? Yet they will cover deadly pills that cause side effects and oh possible death. For example. I have high cholesterol and if i were to take Crestor it's covered yet my good old red yeast rice is not so I pay out of pocket for most of my "meds" that are herbal. You know what? My cholesterol has dropped 100 points since taking the herbal supplement and I have no side effects. I can't see a dietician unless I"m obese and insurance won't cover test strips for my glucometer because I"m not diabetic. I'm just hypoglycemic. Those things are damn expensive. I have insurance yet most of my meds and treatment I pay out of pocket for because insurance won't cover it. It's pretty depressing and frustrating.



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 08:43 PM
link   
reply to post by mblahnikluver
 


Thank you for your response! While I may not agree with your assessment. It at least doesn't have the usual vitriol that I'm used to on these forums and it's a welcome change.

In your post you most eloquently have narrowed down the actual problem with ACA, the insurance companies themselves. This is why the cost is so high.

And subsequently who people really need to be angry at and protesting.

Why should premiums be so damn high? There really isn't any reason except for greed.

Thank you for your insight, I appreciate your comments here



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 09:03 PM
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HauntWok
reply to post by mblahnikluver
 


Thank you for your response! While I may not agree with your assessment. It at least doesn't have the usual vitriol that I'm used to on these forums and it's a welcome change.

Thanks and you're welcome. We don't have to always agree



In your post you most eloquently have narrowed down the actual problem with ACA, the insurance companies themselves. This is why the cost is so high.

Yup they are the problem. If they didn't charge such insane rates people would have to pay so much and it would actually be affordable for all without any kind of "breaks."

I remember when I had my accident and was given a neck brace by my doctor. It was a foam piece of crap with itchy material around it. VERY basic. They charged my insurance $80 for it! I saw it online for $10 bucks! It's all a money making scheme to those people. The first doctor I saw well lets just say the pharmaceutical companies must love her. She loves to hand out scripts. I could have told her I had all kinds of ailments and she would have just kept handing me script after script. I filled 2 out of the 10 she handed me. My current doctor suggests natural remedies for most of my "ailments" and scripts if they are really needed. My heart meds of course are prescription but everything else I pay for out of pocket and they are NOT cheap but they work! She even told me to take up yoga
I have tried...it's too slow for me. I'm working on that.


And subsequently who people really need to be angry at and protesting.

Yup they do but most people don't even want to hear it. They think that those companies are great because the FDA says so. I know people who think this way and I literally bite my tongue out of frustration. The one thing I love about my doctor is she knows how it is and who is to blame. There are some who get it but sadly the majority do not.


Why should premiums be so damn high? There really isn't any reason except for greed.

Exactly! Greed! I mean why should cancer treatments cost millions?! My husbands dad passed due to cancer. I believe it was lung cancer. I remember his mom telling me the bills totaled over a million dollars. That is just INSANE! They got all that money and he still died. How in the heck?! It's disgusting these companies make money off of people being sick. There will be no "cure" for anything. Why? There is no money in a cure! How can they make money if everyone is happy and healthy? I mean now a days there is a pill for EVERYTHING!


Thank you for your insight, I appreciate your comments here



No problem



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 09:56 PM
link   
reply to post by mblahnikluver
 


just remember: Harry Reid, says you, and those people that you know, are all liars.



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 10:06 PM
link   
reply to post by HauntWok
 


You pretend--when you know better--that the game is won.

In terms of downside for Obamacare, the important figures, other than those silly enrollment numbers, of increased costs for everybody is going to bury that plan yet. I frankly don't know what will happen, but it won't be pretty.



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 10:22 PM
link   

Daedalus
sorry wulff, but i had to...


HauntWok
Oh please, be my guest, show me how Obamacare is destroying this nation!


it sets a precedent for federal over-reach of authority....if that's not enough, how about the billions of dollars they'll simply TAKE from those who choose not to comply with this lunacy? or how about the increase in costs to the end-user, as a result of having to buy these ridiculous metal-tiered plans?

when corporations and government collude, you have fascism....do you want fascism? i sure as hell don't.



I've seen evidence how people now have an extra bill to pay. And i'll admit. Yea, it's tough, It's a hardship, But like a lot of things, people are well versed at adapting. And this is a good thing to adapt to. In the long run it's going to be beneficial for the entire united states as a whole. Good for that "general welfare" that the Constitution talks about.


the "general welfare" clause in the constitution DOES NOT provide federal authority for a mandate to the people to buy a product...it just doesn't.

sure, any halfwit can twist it to mean that, but common sense will tell you that's not what it was for.

why should we have an extra bill to pay, just because the federal government thinks we should? we shouldn't HAVE TO adapt, it's our money, what right does the federal government have to tell us how we spend it?



This is a collective decision that the people of the United States have made through our representatives. We have collectively decided that it might be a good idea if everyone in this country had equal access to healthcare without bankrupting all of us. Now, instead of going to the ER every time somethings wrong costing ten times more, we can make an appointment with a doctor.


nonsense. this was a decision made in washington, by a relatively small group of people.....the "representatives" didn't read it, and neither did the people. the spinmasters in washington used the media to LIE to the american people about the benefits of this bill, and the companies that wrote the bill bought up votes....

if you think that the people said to their reps "vote for this", you're nuts.

it's funny....before the ACA, i could go to a doctor, and pay him, and everything was fine. so, i mean, how in the hell is the ACA an improvement on that?



Yea, there's going to be an adjustment period. And sure, there are things that are going to have to be fixed. But, again, it's a start. And a good start to something better for the whole of the country. It's even better for the GDP of this country and better for employers.


if you mean it's a good start toward driving HMO profits through the stratosphere, then you're absolutely right...it's easy to make a profit when you have the government holding a gun to the head of all your customers...

if by "GDP", you mean "HMO profit margin", then again, you're right...

i mean, yeah, i guess it's better for employers, because if they bump people down from full time to part time, then they don't hafta provide coverage, and they get to pay their people less, so sure, that's good for the employers, i guess......sucks for the employees though, because now they'll have less money, and STILL hafta buy some B.S. plan.....so the employer wins, the HMOs win, everyone else loses....wonderful deal....



Change is hard, and conservatives have always been hard on change. But this is leading to better times ahead for all citizens of this country.


yes, change is hard...even moreso when it is completely unnecessary change...going backwards is NEVER easy....you predict better times, but i believe that is because you have no clue how any of this works...



Yea, it's not perfect, but it will get better, these are growing pains, roll with it, learn with it, and collectively, we as a nation are going to perfect this. In the end probably make it better than the rest of the world.


you may be able to polish a turd, but that ain't gonna make it smell better...it's still a turd. this is a lousy system, and there is no way it will ever be the best in the world...you're delusional.



Instead of freaking out and thinking that the country made a decision equates to the country dissolving into madness and a dystopia to which we will never recover. Maybe, remember what our founding fathers went through after the revolution. Separated from our motherland. On our own. Having to deal with a new ideal. It's a scary thought.

But we survived that. And we will survive this.


now i KNOW you're deluded.

you actually have the temerity to compare a destructive law, to the formation of a sovereign country? jesus, do you write this crap yourself, or do you have a pro do it for you? if so, i'd fire him/her immediately, because they are making you look EXTREMELY foolish..

the country did not make this decision..government, and industry did...it's textbook fascism. and it's not madness and dystopia we're worried about....it's homelessness, and destitution....



You have to keep in mind who is telling you this will fail. Those that have a vested interest in making sure that people pay out of pocket for health care if they can afford it. The health insurance companies while getting a ton of new people on the rolls also are going to have to pay out too. And paying out isn't what an insurance company wants to do.


any way you slice it, the HMOs make out....they will make more than enough money from this to turn a profit, regardless of increased subscriber payouts.

and exactly what vested interest do i have? and how are people not paying out of pocket for medical services now? whether or not you have insurance, you're still paying...your statement makes no sense.



And making sure that the people who have chronic pre existing conditions are able to get the treatment that they need isn't something that insurance companies want to pay for.


we BOTH know that provision could have passed all on it's own...in fact, i daresay that is the ONLY beneficial provision in the whole goddamn bill...and here's the thing; people got treatment for "pre-existing conditions" before HMOs even existed.....another nonsense point.



There you have it. FOX News wants you to hate this. They have been brainwashing you for years against the idea. It's ingrained in the people's minds that this is a horrible thing. Why does FOX News care? Because of advertisers.

foxnewsboycott.com... foxnewsboycott.com...

Look through that list and you will see why the Right truly doesn't want people in this nation to get health care. It hurts their bottom line.


nice plug...is that YOUR site, or the people you work for?

so basically anyone who disagrees with your misinformed opinion, is a brainwashed fox-watcher?

got a mind-blower for you; i don't watch fox news...and i completely disagree with you....would you like come up with another label?



The costs are going to go down eventually. And when they do, it's going to be better for everyone.


if you HONESTLY think that they're gonna give the keys to the bank back, you're an idiot.


I hope you didn't get me mixed up with the OP, I agree 100% with you... the OP is continuing to call anyone that disagrees with him names!
When people speak of a nation of sheep they are talking about people like the OP, dumb and happy to let the government dictate everything and he is ready to back 'em up!
I think his type are the ones P.T. Barnum said was born every minute!



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 10:33 PM
link   
reply to post by wulff
 


Obviously reading the OP was too taxing.

Obamacare isn't perfect. What I was commenting on was that it's pissing off conservatives. And causing them to lose their minds. Which is better for this country than any universal health care law they can come up with.

The more that conservatives lose their collective snip, the better off this country will be, because those independent voters are going to look at conservatives and think to themselves "gee, these guys look a little unstable, I think I'll vote liberal."

I mean social conservatism in this country is just about dead. Too bad you guys can't keep from acting like Alex Jones every time the government does anything. Cause this country could really use fiscal conservatism.



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 10:39 PM
link   
reply to post by xuenchen
 


Now that sounds interesting. Thanks.



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 11:40 PM
link   
reply to post by wulff
 


i apologized, because i replied to a post directed at you, instead of waiting for you to answer yourself.




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