Scientists Say Shroud of Turin Shows Jesus Was Crucified in 'Very Painful' Position

a reply to: DeadSeraph

Doesn't the nose pointing upward really say it all?

a reply to: pleasethink

True in some cases, I was talking about the true hippies from the 70's...

That would be me.

...not the modern liberal political illogical whacked out crazy hippies who are not hippies.

And no, I won't explain the quote to you.

If one understood people, it doesn't make psychological sense for one to dedicate their entire life to preserving the words of someone who did not exist.

It does if their goal is to keep people under their thumb, controlled, meek and submissive, and ignorant while they wallow in their imposed self-loathing.
It makes lots of sense. Obviously.

Nose in the air? You betcha, bub. Get a grip.


And the only "words" they are "preserving" are hand-me-down legendsa based on hand-me-down stories.
The man himself never wrote down anything. But, some people will fall for anything....so - it's not your fault.

Hey, have you ever heard of King Arthur? Or Robin Hood? Zeus? And btw, how much to you "tithe"?

I question the so called blood stains on the arms as quoted by the researchers. Since Jesus was Jewish, he would have be buried with Jewish customs, this includes the complete washing of the body, which would have removed any blood stains on the arms and body. As mentioned before blood does not flow once you are dead. So if the shroud is a real depiction of a dead individual, then that person was probability not Jewish.

originally posted by: MinangATS
I question the so called blood stains on the arms as quoted by the researchers. Since Jesus was Jewish, he would have be buried with Jewish customs, this includes the complete washing of the body, which would have removed any blood stains on the arms and body. As mentioned before blood does not flow once you are dead. So if the shroud is a real depiction of a dead individual, then that person was probability not Jewish.

There are a couple explanations for this argument:

-Jewish custom also dictates that the body must be entombed within a certain time period, especially so in Jesus case since the following day was the Sabbath and they were forbidden to handle the dead on that day. The gospels report that the women who went to Jesus tomb on Sunday did so to prepare his body, which seems to indicate He may have been placed in the tomb in haste, and the burial rituals were left until after the sabbath.

-Even if Jesus body was given a quick washing after he was taken down from the cross, it is possible his body was still able to bleed from some of the more severe wounds after being wrapped in the shroud. Dead bodies don't pump blood, but they can still bleed shortly after death if they are moved or their wounds are agitated.

At any rate, I personally think this is still an issue that remains unsolved (many scientists agree). As I said in my OP, some people will never believe, and others will believe no matter what. When it comes to the shroud I am undecided, but find it a fascinating part of history either way. If it's a forgery, it is still an amazing piece of work.

originally posted by: DeadSeraph

originally posted by: MinangATS
I question the so called blood stains on the arms as quoted by the researchers. Since Jesus was Jewish, he would have be buried with Jewish customs, this includes the complete washing of the body, which would have removed any blood stains on the arms and body. As mentioned before blood does not flow once you are dead. So if the shroud is a real depiction of a dead individual, then that person was probability not Jewish.

There are a couple explanations for this argument:

-Jewish custom also dictates that the body must be entombed within a certain time period, especially so in Jesus case since the following day was the Sabbath and they were forbidden to handle the dead on that day. The gospels report that the women who went to Jesus tomb on Sunday did so to prepare his body, which seems to indicate He may have been placed in the tomb in haste, and the burial rituals were left until after the sabbath.

-Even if Jesus body was given a quick washing after he was taken down from the cross, it is possible his body was still able to bleed from some of the more severe wounds after being wrapped in the shroud. Dead bodies don't pump blood, but they can still bleed shortly after death if they are moved or their wounds are agitated.

At any rate, I personally think this is still an issue that remains unsolved (many scientists agree). As I said in my OP, some people will never believe, and others will believe no matter what. When it comes to the shroud I am undecided, but find it a fascinating part of history either way. If it's a forgery, it is still an amazing piece of work.

yes, the body will still ooze some fluids.
open wounds will be imprinted even if not oozing.
until lividity is set.

whatever happened with the shroud, time wise, i would say it was very soon after Jesus being entombed.

originally posted by: [post=17867972]

" This firm belief, a belief bound up with a deep feeling, in a superior mind that reveals itself in the world of experience, represents my conception of God." Einstein

I don't think you understand the meaning of "metaphor". We know Einstein gave up on religion and realized the bible was a crock, by age 12 (wonder what took him so long?). He found the religious notion of "god" to be an expression of human weakness and frailty. Perhaps look into some of the debates he had with other physicists and see what room he leaves for the type of god you propose.

That you would misrepresent him this way is normal for those with a creationist pov, who are rarely known for intellectual integrity.

Perhaps you confused him with another celebrity from that part of the world, who stated quite clearly and unequivocally many times in "Mein Kampf" that he was a creationist. See how irrelevant "appeal to authority/numbers" fallacies work.

Let the quote mining begin...

originally posted by: [post=17867972]
I see homosexuality as a sin, not unlike adultery or lustfulness, etc.

Let's take a comparative look at the difference between parts of the world where people base such things on the unsupported claims of neolithic charlatans (biblical) compared to those who don't.

In the "promiscuous" and secular Scandinavian countries things like divorce, unwanted and teen pregnancy and STD infection rate are very low (comparitively). So low in fact that some of the good 'ol standards such as gonorrhea and syphilis are very low with the latter considered "eradicated" in some parts.

Yet in the godfearing US where attitudes are shaped largely by the words of ancient people not far removed from cave dwellers, it's a little different. The rate of divorce is much higher, unwanted and teen pregnancy are much higher and the teen STD infection rate (that have a low infection rate or considered "eradicated" in godless Scandinavia) is astronomical. Literally hundreds of times higher. It gets worse regionally, in the bible belt such things are in epidemic proportions.

Welcome to the old testament "Utopia"?

It could be just a statistical "blip on the radar", but it isn't. This poor performance is reflected across the board, the more religious a society is, the less healthy and functional it is and the more it resembles a 3rd world society. Prosperity, technology etc are irrelevant. The only consistent correlation is religious belief. Would you like some links for this, have you read the paper I linked before?

Though you can have any belief you want. It is ironic that those less predisposed to such beliefs, would be the ones likely to stand up for your right. At the same time, it is people's right to have an opposing belief, to see that as primitive and backward, not only bigoted and divisive but a causal factor in the intolerance which sees a large section of community needlessly shunned in many ways. This is the part you seem to have trouble with.

No rendition of "No True Scotsmen", please.

My Bible is in English.

I referred to the original (Vulgate). Christianity is a wonderful resource for vulgar and medieval Latin.

Apart from that, the only good I can see from the more virulent forms of Christianity, is it's propensity to "create" (lol) ex Christians. I can't help but notice they form some of the more intelligent members on these boards. Some of their spiritual views are fascinating also. Possibly because they realize the value of thinking for yourself and their ideas don't require the complete overturning of everything we have been able to discern about our universe, as a starting point.

It tires me for the same reason any interaction like this tires me, it's not meant to understand, it is meant to frustrate.

Disagreement doesn't infer a lack of understanding. Thankfully there are those who are no doubt equally galled by my opinions, yet at the same time are able to look past that and instead quoting verse, look to find why such beliefs don't enrich our culture and societies, instead of burden it. I can't help notice they seem less prone to argument and more prone to emulating their hero. As the original might have said..."acta, non verba" (actions, not words). Quite admirable and certainly to be respected, whether I believe in it or not.

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

Yet in the godfearing US where attitudes are shaped largely by the words of ancient people not far removed from cave dwellers, it's a little different. The rate of divorce is much higher, unwanted and teen pregnancy are much higher and the teen STD infection rate (that have a low infection rate or considered "eradicated" in godless Scandinavia) is astronomical. Literally hundreds of times higher. It gets worse regionally, in the bible belt such things are in epidemic proportions.

It could be just a statistical "blip on the radar", but it isn't. This poor performance is reflected across the board, the more religious a society is, the less healthy and functional it is and the more it resembles a 3rd world society. Prosperity, technology, politics etc are irrelevant. The only consistent correlation is religious belief. Would you like some links for this, have you read the paper I linked before?

I would like a link to these statistics. How would you respond to the suggestion that these rates could be a result of other factors? For instance, you've mentioned Scandinavian society which has a higher percentage of secular people, but also have higher standards of living, less poverty, better education and social programs, etc?

It seems unfair to point at religion as the source of society's ills when so many other factors could play a part here. Even if we grant that there IS some tie to religion with these statistics, how can one pin down a direct correlation? Could there perhaps be a case to be made for the "anti-religious"? If we see these antisocial (if one can call it that) behaviors in greater numbers in the bible belt, how can you quantify if these actions are directly taken by the religious, or as a sort of rebellion against fundamentalism?

I'm not sure you have a case here, but I'd be interested in hearing your reply and viewing the data you've mentioned.

a reply to: DeadSeraph

I would like a link to these statistics. How would you respond to the suggestion that these rates could be a result of other factors?

While we wait for Cogito, Ergo Sum to respond, let me just say "Mississippi"

Public opinion polls have consistently ranked Mississippi as the most religious state in the United States

Teenage pregnancy is a problem in Mississippi. The latest data shows that Mississippi has the highest teenage birth rate in the United States.

The state is ranked 50th or last place among all the states for health care

Per capita personal income in 2006 was $26,908, the lowest per capita personal income of any state

a reply to: DeadSeraph

The gospels report that the women who went to Jesus tomb on Sunday did so to prepare his body, which seems to indicate He may have been placed in the tomb in haste, and the burial rituals were left until after the sabbath.

John 19:38-42

38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

According to John, they worked in secret, into the night preparing the body, in the Jewish manner.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

No offense, sounds like a cop out. Anyways, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how illogical it is. I'm just trying to show that what I have argued is relevant to the discussion. In regards to this you have yet to acknowledge the illogical nature of your and some others arguments.

And I was not born in the 70's, but the hippies I knew in my life were, and they accepted everybody. I can remember clearly my friend telling me that there was actually a whole Jesus movement inside of the culture itself. The direction you appear to lean has no basis in hippie culture, but is instead born of misguided politics and ignorance.

Also, glad you admit to being above us all. It clarifies what I'm dealing with.

And by saying the "man himself never wrote anything" aren't you acknowledging that He actually existed? I don't want to be mean to you, I just want to show that you aren't being logical.

And as a personal note, since this is getting interesting, I have known what self imposed loathing feels like. I struggled with drug addiction for many years. In this time I had whatever I wanted, money, girls, hung out with people who were related to guys who own basketball teams. This is all true. I always felt empty inside despite it all. It felt like a meaningless droning on and on seeking temporary fulfillment and being spoiled by my not caring about anything but myself. I was accepted by everyone I would meet instantly. I was part of a large group of people who ran a small town on a island in the keys. But yet never felt anything. I hated myself and all that I had become and life felt meaningless. My life was literally being a a hole, having meaningless sex, treating women in a very uncaring way, and getting high to escape the monotony of not feeling anything. Sounds great, right? But a strange thing happened. I found G-d in a place I used to look to disprove out of spite. I was similar to you in that way. You know now, I got none of the stuff I used to. I have no girls beating up my phone. My friends are all still partying, and feel I somehow betrayed them by changing. But I was able to connect with my dad in the last days of his life. I understand a contentment that I have never felt before, even though I am not perfect. I feel fulfilled inside, as if the emptiness has been substituted with love. At times overpowering love. It has been harder than anything I have ever done. Yet I am free now. Free to be okay with who I am. Free to feel like my life has a solid meaning and that I am loved, not because of who I know, but because of I Am. I have started to see wondrous things that I never noticed before, despite them being all around me all the time. This is a miraculous life. This is a wonderful G-d. I owe Him my life, as surely I would be dead without Him. Does this make me weak? I prefer to think it was my weakness that He used to make me as strong as He desired me to be. Now I stand strong, unbound.

I am living proof that what you teach is false.

originally posted by: DeadSeraph

I would like a link to these statistics. How would you respond to the suggestion that these rates could be a result of other factors? For instance, you've mentioned Scandinavian society which has a higher percentage of secular people, but also have higher standards of living, less poverty, better education and social programs, etc?

Yes, that's the point. No one is claiming religion as the cause. They are claiming there is nothing else that correlates as strongly with societal dysfunction. It has been hypothesised that poor socioeconomic conditions are causal of higher levels of religious belief but so far no one has shown how or why (attempts seem to have failed for now). As an example...why would the US, as one of the world's wealthiest nations, have people working longer hours for less and such a poor record in looking after it's less fortunate and those in need of health care? Why would this wealth not be shared in a similar way to more secular populations? An average CEO in secular Europe earns 20-40 times what his average employee does. Why does he earn around 485 times as much in the most religious 1st world nation, that also strongly claims the principles of charity and brotherly love? Camel's and the eye of a needle and all of that?

It seems unfair to point at religion as the source of society's ills when so many other factors could play a part here. Even if we grant that there IS some tie to religion with these statistics, how can one pin down a direct correlation?

This is because religious belief and observance is the only correlation anyone can find. Though to stress a point...correlation does not equal causation...The real relationship is not understood as yet. Strangely, while religions seem to get in a flap over it, it is secular observers who urge caution about what really might be causal. There is more recent studies that attempt to take in "developing nations" but the statistics are less reliable.

Start with this paper. I'll look for the regional sources (I have read them some time ago). I can link all number of articles about it, but many are from secularists and even atheists, would you read them, there is no shortage.

www.epjournal.net...

After being suppressed by post WW II campaigns, STDs became epidemic in the 1970s in the 1st world. Since then there has been a general decrease in western nations, but syphilis and especially gonorrhea remain at epidemic levels in the U.S., including middle class whites for the latter (Figs. 7,8; Aral and Holmes, 1996; Panchaud et al., 2000). Teen gonorrhea infection rates, for instance, are dozens to literally hundreds of times higher in the U.S. than in secular western Europe and Canada, and gonorrhea and syphilis have been nearly exterminated in the highly secular Nordic countries and France.

Could there perhaps be a case to be made for the "anti-religious"? If we see these antisocial (if one can call it that) behaviors in greater numbers in the bible belt, how can you quantify if these actions are directly taken by the religious, or as a sort of rebellion against fundamentalism?

Can you supply any data to support such an idea?

I'm not sure you have a case here, but I'd be interested in hearing your reply and viewing the data you've mentioned.

I'm only showing the correlation (that certainly exists and isn't even considered controversial anymore) and asking why? While the religious right ignores or introduces the usual red herrings, genuine Christians look at this and also ask why. Why would religion not enrich both our culture and the practical working of our societies like it should?

In fact I'm not really even atheist in any normal sense, or anti religious. Though I don't like fundamentalist religion or pseudo science. I would like religion to take it's rightful place and be something of value (more so than the figures suggest). I would like it to be something that anyone of any persuasion can look at and say... whether I believe it or not, it's a wonderful institution and something that not only enriches our society, but something valuable this way.

Religious people are obviously as nice and intelligent as anyone else, why should this discrepancy exist?

The passage attributed to Josephus is a well known forgery. The best most "religious" scholars can come up with is that it might have mentioned Jesus, but been altered to show him in a good light. It is more likely a complete fabrication.

Why didn't early Christian scholars mention it, they surely would have made a song and dance about it? Why no mention it for centuries (good 'ol Eusebius lol) ? What might it have meant where his patron Vespasian is concerned (or his memory), for Josephus to mention a "messiah"? In the context of Josephus writings and his position and culture, nothing about it makes sense. It is an obvious forgery.

The other mention is quite clearly not about the Jesus of Christianity. A popular name at the time (well the actual name, not our version of it).

edit. Replace messiah with Christ. It makes little difference. It seems very very unlikely Josephus would pronounce such fanboy status.

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

I was using the man's own words. Take it how you want. Never did I imply he was a creationist, although that was probably true as he identified himself as a pantheist. You should check the definition of that word. What I said was he believed in G-d, which was true. Also, to lump Hitler into this discussion is silly, as he has nothing to do with science, and that was our original discussion, was it not? Seems solely for shock value, not for any intelligent debate.

Also to compare diseases and the like to the United States capitalist system driven by profit, to the socialist healthcare in many european nations in which every human in the country is entitled, is not a fair comparison, as which you seem intelligent, and should be aware. I am actually surprised you went there, as you do seem smarter than some I've come across. I shouldn't have to explain the differences. Also, these "cave dwellers" happened to map the stars accurately to the point they predicted what destroyed the (probably fictional to you) Sodom and Gomorrah. They were also able to guide ships by stars to accurately navigate seas to precise locals. I would like to see you try that today. Not to mention many wonders of the world were built during this time, and still stand today. Doesn't sound as stupid as you seem to be implying, and once again, I am shocked. And just to let you know, basing belief upon stat sheets in itself reeks of foolishness, as every politician knows, a stat sheet is just as good as the money you used to get an "expert" to make it. What I have referenced is historical, well known scientists and documents. What you present over and over is stat sheet. Starting to get the picture?

Also, the Bible was not originally Latin. This is quite evident and is easy to fact check. Just saying. I'm starting to lose faith in you. Also, it was thinking for myself that led me to the Bible, so petty insults based upon prejudice doesn't make you look more tolerant than those "virulent" strains of Christianity you attempt to mock. It seems you only succeed in mocking yourself.

And lastly, debate is the process in which all good things are accomplished. I love intelligent people who can make me think. Also, I am not galled by your opinions, they are more like the "status quo:. I am used to hearing it all over everywhere. It is becoming commonplace. It has gotten to the point where Christians feel they are somehow wrong for being Christians, as it isn't necessarily "pc". I just don't condone anyone being bullied, and see a political agenda being disguised by a illogical lot that doesn't base their arguments upon facts, but more upon "I don't like to be told what to do or how to be, you must accept who I am even though I don't accept you". It is a pet peeve of mine, as it combines two things I despise; illogicality and bullying people who they perceive as weak. I am not weak. I am not illogical. Therefore, come. All you afford me is the opportunity to expose the illogical nature of you ignorance, and the hateful nature of your argument, all hiding under the guise of loving and tolerance. You be the wolf in sheep's clothing. I'll be the lion at rest.

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I will need to take some time to take a look through the material you've linked to and respond to your post in more detail later, as things are a bit hectic here atm with visiting family and such. I would like to say however, that I appreciate the cordial way you've gone about communicating your ideas. One statement struck me as particularly poignant:

I'm only showing the correlation (that certainly exists and isn't even considered controversial anymore) and asking why? While the religious right ignores or introduces the usual red herrings, genuine Christians look at this and also ask why. Why would religion not enrich both our culture and the practical working of our societies like it should?

I can't argue with this at all. At bare minimum, people of any religious persuasion should be interested in investigating such data not only to discover if such a link exists, but how they can take steps to reduce these issues within their own communities, if only pre-emptively.

originally posted by: pleasethink
a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum
Also, to lump Hitler into this discussion is silly, as he has nothing to do with science, and that was our original discussion, was it not? Seems solely for shock value, not for any intelligent debate.

It was to show the utter irrelevance of appeal to authority fallacies and quote mining.

Also to compare diseases and the like to the United States capitalist system driven by profit, to the socialist healthcare in many european nations in which every human in the country is entitled, is not a fair comparison

It is exactly fair. It is not only in these areas religious populations suffer, but basically across the board. Why would "I don't know" not be an acceptable answer. Instead of irrelevant red herrings?

Also, the Bible was not originally Latin.

Obvously. It should also have been obvious I was talking of the Vulgate, as adopted by the Roman Catholic Church and Clergy (it probably had Greek equivalents as educated Romans usually spoke Greek also) and became popular throughout the world up until more recent times.

I'm starting to lose faith in you.

You cannot lose that which was never in your possession.

Also, it was thinking for myself that led me to the Bible, so petty insults based upon prejudice doesn't make you look more tolerant than those "virulent" strains of Christianity you attempt to mock. It seems you only succeed in mocking yourself.

Ok, I'll accept that. There are many Christians who think for themselves and accept many versions of Christianity. I apologize where it might have been a reference to your beliefs.

Though it is an often quoted point by ex Christians, that thinking for themselves was the cause of them going from pro to ex. If you think I mock myself at times or make lots of mistakes...yes absolutely. I get to see it every day.

I just don't condone anyone being bullied, and see a political agenda being disguised by a illogical lot that doesn't base their arguments upon facts, but more upon "I don't like to be told what to do or how to be, you must accept who I am even though I don't accept you". It is a pet peeve of mine, as it combines two things I despise; illogicality and bullying people who they perceive as weak. I am not weak. I am not illogical. Therefore, come. All you afford me is the opportunity to expose the illogical nature of you ignorance, and the hateful nature of your argument, all hiding under the guise of loving and tolerance. You be the wolf in sheep's clothing. I'll be the lion at rest.

Perceive you as weak? lol. Nothing could be further from the truth!

Yes I am ignorant. As a great Greek philosopher (who may or may not have existed lol) once opined. It was in knowing at least that much, that he was ignorant, that set him apart from other wise men.

Hateful ? Come on, now who is being a wolf in sheep's clothing, perhaps maneuvering their way to higher ground? I have some doubts about that.

originally posted by: pleasethink
I just thought of another thing. For years many archaeologists said the Exodus never happened, as there was no indication in the Egyptian hieroglyphs that the Pharaoh ever went to war with the Hebrews. Then, on one of the pillars, their was a small stela, their was an inscription which stated something to the effect of "The pharaoh went out to war with the Hebrews(or whatever name they used) and they were no more". Now this wasn't covered at all, really. Only caught it in passing on a History documentary. Why was that? And why did it say they were no more?

It might be talking about the Egyptians forces giving a small and somewhat irrelevant tribe in (Egyptian controlled) Canaan a bit of "hurry up". I remember reading somewhere that this happened, but the Exodus didn't. It's best to use care when googling, there is some ugly racist stuff out there. These are just some links I found at a glance, there's plenty of mention of and links to genuine scholars (even Rabbis) and on what they base their conclusions. No doubt if you typed it into the search box, there would be plenty. I remember discussing before.

Mainstream history and archaeology now consider the Exodus never to have happened, and the story to be an entirely fictional narrative put together between the 8th and 5th centuries BCE.[1]

rationalwiki.org...

“It’s been decades since we’ve known… what’s the hold up?” asked Israel Finkelstein, the chairman of the Archaeology Department at Tel Aviv University. “The period of the patriarchs, exodus, conquest, or judges as devised by the writers of Scriptures never existed,” asserted Robert Coote, Senior Research Professor of Hebrew Exegesis at San Francisco’s Theological Seminary. “The Genesis and Exodus accounts are a fiction,” noted the biblical scholar Niels Peter Lemche of the University of Copenhagen. “The actual evidence concerning the Exodus resembles the evidence for the unicorn,” concluded Baruch Halpern, Professor of Jewish Studies of Pennsylvania State University. “The patriarchs’ acts are legendary stories, we did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, we did not conquer the land. Those who take an interest have known these facts for years,” declared famed Israeli archeologist, Ze’ev Herzog of Tel Aviv University. “Scholars have known these things for a long time, but we’ve broken the news very gently,” explained one of America’s preeminent archaeologists, Professor William Dever of the University of Arizona… an admission which then inspired Christianity Today’s Kevin D. Miller to concede: “The fact is that not one shred of direct archaeological evidence has been found for Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob or the 400-plus years the children of Israel sojourned in Egypt. The same is true for their miraculous exodus from slavery.”

www.beliefnet.com...

thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com...

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

Well, I believe we have made each others opinions on the subject known. It has been interesting, maybe more so than any other interaction I have had on here. This is a compliment to you. I believe you still hold onto things that are more of a political leaning understanding, but that is certainly okay. I just don't see that logic plays a role. There are some incredibly interesting scientific understandings available in the Bible that have led men throughout history to understand more than they would have otherwise. It has helped many men to find fulfillment. This is entirely true to orders of magnitude. It has also been used by evil impostors to foster hate and division between others, and in this way has been defiled beyond belief. But to point at the Bible and say "That's fake and bad" is irresponsible. It is the actions of men that are wrong. It has always been the actions of men. My favorite book of the Bible is Job. You might be familiar with it. It has wisdom beyond it's age, which is understood to predate Moses and the "In pricipio" you made reference to. I used to have the same questions in which you had. It is this book that dawned the truth in my understanding. It is not G-d who is on trial here. It is us.

We weren't there to see the establishment of this thing. We do not understand where it comes from. We guide ourselves through the fog to perceive clarity. What we see, we attempt to make sense of. Throughout human understanding we have made leaps in bounds in understanding the world around us, but have barely scratched the surface. It will always be this way. There is a understanding present in the Bible that speaks clearly to this. When approached properly, one finds the meaning in which they search for. This is not a negative thing. It is only negative when one uses it to trick others into listening to them instead of listening to the Bible. That is why the Bible was kept in archaic languages by the Roman church for so long. It's so people wouldn't understand and would have to listen to what the priest told them. I, on the other hand, say don't listen to me, and look for these things by yourself. I can lay the outline, but G-d speaks to all those whom He calls in their own way. One must seek in order to find. As is written "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings."

In my experience, this touched me in a moment of ignorance: “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?
12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?

Now, something that you might find interesting, which surely was not known then:
The cluster of the Pleiades is an odd one out as far as star clusters go. Because of the small amounts of dust and gas between the stars in the cluster, it is called a galactic or open cluster, but unlike many such open clusters, it is not breaking up. It is the classic example of a ‘bound’ cluster (1). The energies of motion of the individual stars cannot ever overcome the ‘chains’ of gravity and allow them to move away from the cluster. Nor, indeed, is the cluster expanding, as it has been calculated that it would take 1,000 million years to significantly change the diameter of the cluster (2). This situation is very uncommon as the reverse is usually true of all open or galactic clusters.

Please, continue upon your path, just please don't disrupt the paths of others. The Bible is not evil. Men are evil.

originally posted by: DeadSeraph

I would like a link to these statistics.

Here are some articles with relevant sources. In isolation they seem bad enough, but it could be worth looking for other statistical studies re overall societal health. The trend, worldwide (on available stats), seems to show an increase in societal dysfunction commensurate with an increase religious belief.

If you are a Christian, I commend you for at least being interested. I doubt the average religious observance by most reasonable people is problematic this way. IMO, it results from the more fundamentalist, literalist faiths (though I have nothing to really back that up with).

A look at divorce rates from sociologist Jennifer Glass Ph.d.
contemporaryfamilies.org...

An article entitled "What's fueling Bible Belt divorces", with referred census bureau study.
edition.cnn.com...
www.census.gov...

An article on teen birthrates based on a study by the "Centre for Disease Control". Shows the US improving, though weighted heavily (negatively) to the bible belt.
www.theatlanticcities.com...
www.cdc.gov...

A paper from the "Reproductive Health Journal" entitled "Religiosity and teen birth rate in the United States".
www.reproductive-health-journal.com...

Conclusion

At the level of states in the U.S., conservative religious beliefs predict teen birth rates highly and significantly; the correlation remains high and significant after controlling for income and estimated rates of abortion.

An article on the US, re STD"s from a Ph.d in social science.
www.nbcnews.com...

An overall look at STD's in the US.
www.cdc.gov...

An article from "Education in Review".
www.eduinreview.com...

the Bible Belt is trending in an unholy way. Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana have the most obese populations, the highest amount of cancer deaths, and the fewest teeth. Along with South Carolina, those states also have the most cases of Gonorrhea and Chlamydia. In the southeast, the gonorrhea rate per 100,000 people is over 100, and the chlamydia rate per 100,000 people is 400 plus.

Translation:the STD numbers in the respective states are high enough to be classified as epidemic.

originally posted by: pleasethink
My favorite book of the Bible is Job. You might be familiar with it. It has wisdom beyond it's age, which is understood to predate Moses and the "In pricipio" you made reference to.

It isn't my favourite (I do actually find beauty in various religious texts including the bible), but I am familiar with it. I look at it very differently of course, not so much from the deep religious understanding you mention (because I also doubt that), but in trying to understand how anyone could praise such a vile version of god as portrayed in such texts. If there were reason to believe such a god exists (there isn't) I would acknowledge it, but praise such a thing? Finding anything resembling a redeeming quality would be beyond most.

Are you talking of the text/stories themselves? I doubt anything pre dates "in the beginning".

Now, something that you might find interesting, which surely was not known then:
The cluster of the Pleiades is an odd one out as far as star clusters go. Because of the small amounts of dust and gas between the stars in the cluster, it is called a galactic or open cluster, but unlike many such open clusters, it is not breaking up. It is the classic example of a ‘bound’ cluster (1). The energies of motion of the individual stars cannot ever overcome the ‘chains’ of gravity and allow them to move away from the cluster. Nor, indeed, is the cluster expanding, as it has been calculated that it would take 1,000 million years to significantly change the diameter of the cluster (2). This situation is very uncommon as the reverse is usually true of all open or galactic clusters.

There are no end of claims of advanced knowledge for ancient civilisations, to support many different belief systems. Usually requiring a lot of poetic licence and imagination in what such things might infer. If they wrote something like in the link, it would be more convincing, in fact amazing.

archive.org...

Please, continue upon your path, just please don't disrupt the paths of others.

I offer another point of view. It can be taken or left as people wish.

The Bible is not evil.

I don't argue so much that the bible is evil (it's anthropomorphic and primitive god seems more reflective of the culture that thought it up), first and foremost I argue that it is mythological.

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

If you would ever like to start a thread about scientific facts present in ancient writings, let me know. I will most certainly be skewered, but would love to take a crack at it.

And the reason Job was thought to predate the writings of Moses is because it is referenced not only in books written by Moses but also by Solomon. The information is available if you wish to seek it out. It is thought that it might possibly be the oldest known book in the Bible. But who can say, really.

Anyways, I can appreciate your intelligence. Not everyone can agree. That is okay. I see the world differently. I find wisdom in the Bible, you call it a myth. I will not fault you for that. You are a human just like I. May you find wisdom in the world, and happiness in your heart.

I'll tell you a strange story. When I was younger, I was a bad, hateful bastard. I was in Miami hanging out with some really bad folks. My dad was a preacher on and off all his life. He offered to take me to a place in Pensacola, called Brownsville church. He offered to pay me. It was the only way I would go. We got there and it was the strangest thing I had ever seen. I tell you no lie hundreds of people were in line out to the street to get into church. It was so surreal to me, as I hated church with a fierce passion. I was already looking forward to the end, if you get my drift. I got into this place and there was this sudden fear that shot through me as soon as I walked through the door. There was a weird feeling in this building. and something inside me wanted no part of it. I started scrambling, thinking of ways to get out of there. All of a sudden this girl, the pastors daughter from Miami who came with us, showed up and said "Come sit by me". She was kind of hot, and this feeling instantly went away. All of a sudden I was Don Juan. Right up until the guy started preaching and she shoosed me. This forced me to pay attention. He did a alter call, and started calling out to people. All of a sudden he started to read out my life story to me. Not from a book, not from anyone telling him. It was only me he was talking about. This is so true, and I know you'll probably explain it away, but there was no way he knows this stuff. In my heart I was torn, screaming to go up. I felt so guilty inside for being such a crap. I chickened out, and the moment passed. All of a sudden some strange lady, I remember her still today(short brown hair, taller than me), came up and said "G-d wants me to pray for you. Will you let me?" I said yes, as I felt guilty for chickening out. She placed her hand on my head and started praying for me. Next thing you know I was in the middle of a huddle of hands all on my head. It was so surreal. In my heart I said "Lord, if you are there, forgive me. I have been so bad" This is not a lie: In that instant a power came over me that is indescribable. I fell to the floor and it was as if the whole crowd of thousands was gone and I was in this weird cocoon. It was like love being a physical thing and pressing you down and going through you. I knew nothing could harm me in this weird place. It was like being smothered by love while simultaneously being a part of love. Love you could physically touch. I sobbed and sobbed, feeling I didn't deserve this.

This experience confirms that G-d is real for me. And He is all He says He is. And He gives this even if you don't deserve it. He actually wants to give it. But you have to look for it to find it.

In case you actually read all that, it actually happened. The pastor was named Steve Hill. The church was Brownsville. It is generally referred to as the Brownsville Revival. You can search if you like. It was surreal. This is why I believe, as I know it is true. Nothing could shake me. I have felt His presence, and surely all who cursed Him(me included) will be shamed once they feel it too, as I was. He is not a myth. He is all love.

Anyways, good luck in the future. I wish you well.