Italy's bishops pass Vatican-backed rule that child molestation does not have to be reported

Danbones
what i have trouble wrapping my skull around is the concept of duality:
the judgmental forgiving god?

hell or forgiveness?

and to play devils advocate here
is blaming the "debble" not avoidance of the responsibility we have to decide and carry out justice?

edit on Tuepm4b20144America/Chicago47 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

Well the way I read it, God would have more information than we do can read hearts and minds. It is not OUR place to judge "individuals" we are allowed to judge things being good or bad.

The forgiving is done on the basis of you "will sin no more" not on a keep doing it and repeat.

The idea of hell in the bible clearly is a representation of being away from God not being burned for eternity.

reply to post by Danbones


There is only 2 scenarios behind the reasoning of this


1. the devil is real and has hijacked the vatican using his minions to pose as religious leaders , children being an offering , the violation of innocence in all that is pure as insult to god ect . one would think if there was a satan wouldn't he try to mislead gods people in many faiths ? and indoctrinate them with his own ways ? it kinda makes sense i guess.


2. there is a international pedophile ring that goes deeper then we think, even in the government and financial institutions foreign and domestic. the church is nothing but a front, wolves in sheeps clothing.


It appears more than ever the whole lot of them are pedophiles and its much much worse than we thought obviously. This IS a criminal matter. I am not privy to the law in Italy but here in the US if you do not report a crime having knowledge of it that makes you accessory after the fact . This is as far as i am concerned a criminal enterprise with the most obscene nature. The Catholic faith is known for hypocrisy . From my understanding catholics can sin and then confess and they will be forgiven. Gives these bishops a license to rape kids


Religion sucks

As a Catholic, I was appalled to hear of this, but at least it sent me to go find the actual facts of what these Bishops said.

Describing sexual abuse of minors as "a crime prosecuted by civil law," the doctrinal congregation said bishops should follow local laws when they require reporting cases of sexual abuse to police.

The Vatican has insisted that church law requires bishops and religious superiors to obey local laws on reporting suspected crimes; however, it also has said that where reporting is not mandatory and the victim does not want to go to the police, the victim's wishes must be respected.

Some countries have stricter norms, for example, "in cases where there is a justified suspicion" of abuse, the bishops of Switzerland said the church should go to the police, "unless the victim or his representative objects."

However, they added, if there appears to be an "immediate danger" of a church employee sexually abusing a child again, the police must be informed. (Source)

Now, that's a little different than "molestation does not have to be reported" -- if there is danger of subsequent abuse, it must be reported, but lacking that if the victim asks that it not be reported, it cannot be. That is consistent with church law, which requires Bishops to obey laws on reporting crimes -- if the Italians want the Bishops to report suspected abuse, even when the victim doesn't want them to, they need to change the civil reporting law.

It's not what I would have wanted to hear, but it is consistent with church and local law. The alternative would be forcing a victim into a courts situation that they don't want to be in, victimizing them twice.

ausername

jacygirl
reply to post by windword

 

What are we 'allowed' to do then, after the 491st offense? (sorry, I don't have the bible memorized).

I find it hard to accept that we have a benevolent God who would rather have clergymen keep secrets when children are being abused. (confession) Even harder to accept that all these sins are okay with God.
I'd rather expect that the 'sinners' would be weeded out as they try to climb the religious ladder, but no...they get promoted.

Colour me confused....
jacy

It should be clear now that Satan has not only infiltrated the church, but now works to control the policies of the church.

People of faith would be wise to abandon organized religion completely, and worship privately apart from the church. Especially in these times.

Exactamundo , to me Satan resides in the hearts of men as part of our duality. The more we resist these inhumane impulses the farther we are away from Satan and closer to God being God is part of us. Because i dont believe in the magical mythology of religion since im agnostic but yeah im open to it. That being said for those who believe they should be aware that Satan can and will be facilitating things as a middle man here on Earth. Either way seems the Devil is winning.

reply to post by adjensen

if the victim asks that it not be reported

The victims are generally young children so the confessor would be the abuser in most cases, or a priest who was caught raping.

However, they added, if there appears to be an "immediate danger" of a church employee sexually abusing a child again, the police must be informed.

All I can say to this is wow that wording takes the cake! I guess as long as you're standing there with the guy there is no immediate danger to them (raping) more appropriate word...a child. So no need to do anything.

"unless the victim or his representative objects."

So a parent can arrange with their priest to not report as the child's representative.

ROME (CNS) -- The Italian bishops' conference encouraged its members to cooperate with civil authorities in cases of clerical sexual abuse, but said the bishops have no legal obligation to report abuse allegations to the police or other civil authorities.

In addition, the new Italian church norms say the bishops "are exonerated" from releasing to the state documents in their possession or information connected with abuse cases.

They are "encouraged" not ordered...this whole thing is a license to continue as has been forever!

reply to post by adjensen


Try not to be a label (catholic) but a human being standing alone before god. You are not going have a huge church with all the fancy priests standing with you when your time comes you will stand or fall on your own merit. What are you championing and condoning?

Matthew 6:5

“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

Matthew 6:7

“And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

The age of consent in the vatican is 12.
No brownie points for guessing who proposed that...

Thank god i'm an athiest.

reply to post by rupertg

Vatican City’s equal age of consent is being raised from 12 to 18 following the announcement of an overhaul of the Catholic Church’s criminal code by Pope Francis.

Francis has also ordered that Vatican City adopt international norms to prevent transnational criminal activities.

Vatican City raises age of consent from 12 to 18 following scandals

I have to wonder what took them so long!

However Francis has also made it a crime for agents of the church to leak Vatican information after Vatican butler to Pope Benedict XVI, Paolo Gabriele, leaked information about corruption within the Catholic church - potentially discouraging whistleblowers.

And, there's the rub!

so many thought provoking posts
too many to answer at the moment, but starz to every one

thanks Adj, i hadn't thought to go to the horse's mouth for the direct content
that was smart

yes WW, the thought of correction caused by scandals...
when it should be from the inspiration to do good is disturbing

reply to post by Char-Lee

What are you championing and condoning?

I'm not "championing or condoning" anything. I'm asking a fairly reasonable question -- as a Catholic, I find these scandals to be reprehensible, so if the church is somehow suggesting that Bishops should continue to hide things, I am obviously not in favour of that.

But it begs the question -- if that's what this is, nothing more than the means by which acts like these can be covered up, then why would you even have heard of this ruling? It's internal to the church (to the church in Italy, at that,) so it doesn't make any sense that it's some conspiracy that is getting attention in the media. Either the church is incredibly arrogant, to the point of abject stupidity, or all is not as it seems, and the information was disseminated because it is something other than a license to abuse children.

That made me go look at the actual ruling, and what it says, which is that Bishops have no legal obligation to do something. That's a factual statement, not a judgement on the part of either the church or the Bishops, and when we look at the Italian legal code, lo and behold... no legal obligation.

So, if we can set aside our biases for a moment, I think that we can agree that, when this statement says Bishops have no legal obligation, it says that because, in fact, Bishops have no legal obligation. They must accede to the wishes of the victim. Not the wishes of the abusive priest or the Pope or the Bishop -- the wishes of the victim.

But, because the same document also says that the Bishop has a moral (not legal) obligation to report abuse, that cannot be an excuse not to report the matter to the police, and it absolutely does not say that ignoring it or giving the abuser a "free pass" are options.

You are not going have a huge church with all the fancy priests standing with you when your time comes you will stand or fall on your own merit.

Quite right.

And I will also point out that those who intentionally misrepresent the actions or beliefs of others will be called to answer for violating the commandment against bearing false testimony.

reply to post by adjensen


Would you quit with that rational nonsense? The folks on this thread want to Catholic bash. Get with the program! The nerve!

adjensen
As a Catholic, I was appalled to hear of this, but at least it sent me to go find the actual facts of what these Bishops said.

where reporting is not mandatory and the victim does not want to go to the police, the victim's wishes must be respected.

This could also mean that a child sex abuse victim of pedophiles in the church could be coerced into "not wanting to go to the police" and leaves open the possibility that the Vatican can cover up the abuse of a victim.

The fact that we are even having this conversation and the fact that this has gone on for a long time, leaving thousands of victims many who may have chosen to remain silent out of embarrassment, intimidation, coercion and having parents paid settlements for silence. Pedophile priests that have been known to molest children have been relocated and protected in the past, there is no reason to assume that they will not seek ways to do the same now and in the future in cases where it is possible for them to cover up abuse.

If you want to be appalled, there is plenty of reason to be with or without this new "tweaking' of Vatican policy.

reply to post by ausername

there is no reason to assume that they will not seek ways to do the same now and in the future in cases where it is possible for them to cover up abuse.

Yes, but is there any reason to spell out a policy that is intended to allow them to do that in a public forum?

Given the outrage expressed toward the Catholic Church because of these scandals, why on earth would they intentionally publicize a policy that, according to the majority of posters in this thread, including you, is blatantly saying "up yours" to those people who are so up in arms. Frankly, that doesn't make any sense at all.

What does make sense is the clarification of a stated policy, and its implementation, given the Vatican policy of "Bishops must follow the local laws as regards these issues" (as opposed to saying "Bishops can do whatever they want, legal or not.")

Again, I'm not defending child abuse or the coverup of such that the church has been guilty of in the past, I just wanted to know if this was a continuation of that, and when I look at what this is, it's just a simple statement of fact. If Italians are uncomfortable with this policy, they need to change the law, since that is what is being followed.

reply to post by adjensen


Super simplified explanation in as few words as possible.

It is a cleverly crafted loophole in policy that leaves open the possibility that abuse can be covered up.

Got it?

jacygirl
reply to post by Danbones

 

Hey Danbones!
Why are these high ranking religious officials so damn awful??!!
Aren't they supposed to be good people...representing 'God'...doing good in the world...helping people?
I just don't understand.
Aren't they here to help us, do good, all that stuff? No?
Doesn't their 'God' frown on (aka condemn to a fiery pit in Hell) people who do bad things...to children....?
Yet they persist. Hmmm...what do they know that we don't?

S&F for getting me all fired up before 9 am, lol.
jacygirl

Jacygirl, they use 'god' & 'religion' to do, and get, what they want. Their actions show that they have no real belief in god; much less an omnipresent god, who can see and knows everything they do.

reply to post by ausername

It is a cleverly crafted loophole in policy that leaves open the possibility that abuse can be covered up.

Why? Why leave a loophole and then publicize it? Does that really make sense to you?

I was just reading the 2014 Annual Report of the Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People (read it here) -- in 2013, the Catholic Church spent $123,365,277 to settle civil cases of abuse by priests, and spent $41,721,675 on programs to make sure that it doesn't happen in the future (2013 reported cases of abuse were the lowest that they've been since they have been tracked, and the vast majority were reports of incidents that happened years or decades prior.)

Given that such a liability is known, how can you possibly believe that the church would say "screw it, let's put something in place that intentionally allows abuse to continue and then tell everyone that we're doing it. That'll show 'em!"

Yes, I am Catholic, but that doesn't mean that I'm in any way supportive of priestly abuse, and in this case, media sensationalism and anti-Catholic ranters aside, it clearly is a case of the church saying that the Bishops are held to the laws in the jurisdiction where they are -- nothing more, nothing less.

Now, perhaps you can tell my why the mainstream media is reporting it differently, and where are all the mainstream media headlines that shout "Reported abuse in the Catholic Church is at the lowest levels recorded!"

Funny how so many people whine about "the biased media" until they agree with the biases, no?

why do the Italians or the world for that matter, put up with this crap. they need to go in and take over Vatican city. the western world have been treating these people as if they are something special. these "holy" people have helped Nazi's escape, they are kid touchers, they killed off tens of thousands of women during the dark ages because they were afraid they might try and own land left to them by their husbands. they have those vaults that contain vital information that they stole from other people, about the history of man, and yet they keep it secret. they have untold billions in wealth, which they seem to think is theirs, all the while asking their local parishioners to cough up money to support individual dioceses. down through the ages they have participated in murders, government overthrows, corruption, theft, vile acts on children, etc....and....all they have to say is "forgive me, I have sinned"....and everybody just "forgives" them....what a crock of horse crap.