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Russia trying to 'dismember' Ukraine through protests, Kiev says

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posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 02:18 AM
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reply to post by Vovin
 


Based on the RT article, did they not revert back to the 2004 Constitution




posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 03:23 AM
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Graystone (the old blackwater) has been sent in to help the new puppet government implant installed in the Ukraine to hold on to power and if the west continues to act in this manner then Russia will come in to protect Russians in the Ukraine that are being killed and I don't blame them.

Ron Paul said on TV that $5bn was spent in the Ukraine by the west to finance these protests and i might not agree quite that much was spent but it does go to prove who attacked who.

Russia is also well cheesed off with the USA sending advance tank buster weapons to the terrorists in Syria so lets not blame them when they give the same type of firepower to groups that are fighting the west or Israel.

An eye for an eye is something the USA will understand



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 04:51 AM
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reply to post by VirusGuard
 


Can you link me to your source for Ron Paul and the money?

Ive looked at his public statements on the issue and so far the only thing related I have seen is him discussing a billion dollars being sent to Ukraine to assist in the bank debt, which essentially means the money we send to Ukraine will go to Russia for the gas bill issue.

Thanks.



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 06:06 AM
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VirusGuard
Graystone (the old blackwater) has been sent in to help the new puppet government implant installed in the Ukraine to hold on to power and if the west continues to act in this manner then Russia will come in to protect Russians in the Ukraine that are being killed and I don't blame them.

Ron Paul said on TV that $5bn was spent in the Ukraine by the west to finance these protests and i might not agree quite that much was spent but it does go to prove who attacked who.

Russia is also well cheesed off with the USA sending advance tank buster weapons to the terrorists in Syria so lets not blame them when they give the same type of firepower to groups that are fighting the west or Israel.

An eye for an eye is something the USA will understand


While I agree with most of what you've shared, I can not agree with the last part. When it comes to eye for an eye, it has nothing to do with USA per say. While over 83% of Russians support Putin and his politics, less then 40% of Americans support Obama and his position, so IMHO it would be more proper to state that eye for an eye is something the White House will understand, since they obviously don't speak for the majority of Americans. Naturally much less pentagon, FED, NSA, etc.
edit on 9-4-2014 by renden because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 06:29 AM
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Vovin

Xcathdra

Vovin
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Who cares about your interpretation of Ukraine law?? This is the fight against fascism that threatens to draw the world into war! Are you with the fascists or against the fascists???



Based on the RT article, did they not revert back to the 2004 Constitution?


Again, are you with fascists or against fascists? It is a yes or no answer.

Fascism is a hostile and aggressive threat to world peace and there is no way to morally justify it unless you are with the fascists. Moral justification goes beyond legal justification. I'm sure the SS had laws allowing them to murder and experiment on people like cattle. Do you think they were justified because it was within their law? So what difference does it make if Ukraine was under this or that constitution?


Side stepping the question once again, looks like he is with the fascists, even if he doesn't want to admit to such.



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 06:29 AM
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Double post

Anyone that is in favour of the current government in Ukraine only shows that they are massive hypocrites, they claim that freedom of the Ukrainian people is what is at stake and then defend fascists!? Last time I checked fascism is not the most tolerant of beliefs.
edit on 9-4-2014 by sosobad because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 06:56 AM
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sosobad
Side stepping the question once again, looks like he is with the fascists, even if he doesn't want to admit to such.


If you bothered to read the posts I asked my question before his. Secondly I am against Fascist, and presently they reside in Moscow and Crimea.

This is the dilemma he faces if he actually finds the stones and answers my question.

If he says Yes, Ukraine did in fact revert back to the 2004 Constitution, then his entire position and all Russian justifications go out the window. It would mean the government of Ukraine, when they reverted back, used proper procedure / law by holding the impeachment vote.

If he states no, it places him at odds with Russian media, whose report on the agreement contradicts Putin's position. That is why he is desperately trying to change the topic over to his bs fascists question. I personally believe the Russian government is in fact the fascist regime. I believe the ad-hoc government in Crimea, that rose to power by masked men with guns, is also fascist.

Based on the agreement signed by Parliament / Former President Yanukovych the 2004 Constitution went into effect.
The Parliament voted on the Constitution reversion.
The Parliament then voted to impeach Yanukovych using the 2004 Constitution under the streamlined process.
The vote to remove requires 2/3 majority - with 380+ in favor, easily meeting the requirement.

He and others are so desperate to support any position that is not the US position, that it is forcing him to sidestep the questions / issues that cannot and do not support his position.

The Ukrainian Parliament was also elected by the Ukrainian people, something you guys ignore. That Parliament is the one that removed the President, and that was done after the government resigned. In fact the Presidents own party voted to impeach, in addition to booting his ass out of the party.

If you look at Crimea, you have masked gunmen in the employ / controlled by Russian Military wearing no insignias storming into the Crimean government building and taking the lawfully elected Crimean Prime minister into custody and replacing him with a hand picked successor that the people of Crimea did NOT vote for.

Was there a coup in Ukraine? Not according to Russian media / the EU / Former president Yanukovych / The German foreign ministry / the United Nations.

Was there a coup in Crimea - absolutely.

The fascist regime is in Crimea and Moscow, not Kiev. If you guys are that incapable of exercising common sense then why bother posting? As you guys like to accuse, Pro Russia also comes across as paid shills. A simple question about the Ukraine Constitution is met with obfuscation and an irrelevant question about who is fascist and who is not.

A classic denial because once again the facts cant be refuted, so you guys go after the poster while hoping people forget you never bothered to answer the question. Ironically enough if you need evidence look at our post. You also sidestepped the question while insinuating a position I do not hold.

If the 2004 Constitution question were not so damming, you guys would have answered it and supported it with a landslide in sources. Being you failed to do so, it brings us back to the tactic of attack the poster because you cant attack the facts.

So thank you both for answering my question by doing anything but answering my question.



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 06:59 AM
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sosobad
Double post

Anyone that is in favour of the current government in Ukraine only shows that they are massive hypocrites, they claim that freedom of the Ukrainian people is what is at stake and then defend fascists!? Last time I checked fascism is not the most tolerant of beliefs.
edit on 9-4-2014 by sosobad because: (no reason given)


How about you support your claim against the entire Ukraine government. Specifically please explain / link sources that every member of the Ukraine government is acting as a Fascist.

Also please explain, using your logic, why the former President is not a fascist.

Finally how do you explain the fact Parliament was elected by the people prior to this mess even starting, and they were the ones who moved to impeach. How are they illegal / participating in a coup?

I look forward to your attempt to answer those questions, assuming you don't obfuscate like the other poster and desperately introduce other non relevant crap instead of answering.



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 07:46 AM
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Xcathdra

sosobad
Double post

Anyone that is in favour of the current government in Ukraine only shows that they are massive hypocrites, they claim that freedom of the Ukrainian people is what is at stake and then defend fascists!? Last time I checked fascism is not the most tolerant of beliefs.
edit on 9-4-2014 by sosobad because: (no reason given)


How about you support your claim against the entire Ukraine government. Specifically please explain / link sources that every member of the Ukraine government is acting as a Fascist.

Also please explain, using your logic, why the former President is not a fascist.

Finally how do you explain the fact Parliament was elected by the people prior to this mess even starting, and they were the ones who moved to impeach. How are they illegal / participating in a coup?

I look forward to your attempt to answer those questions, assuming you don't obfuscate like the other poster and desperately introduce other non relevant crap instead of answering.


Haha nice job at trying to put words in my mouth


Finally how do you explain the fact Parliament was elected by the people prior to this mess even starting, and they were the ones who moved to impeach. How are they illegal / participating in a coup?


Where did I mention in my post about illegal or coup?


Also please explain, using your logic, why the former President is not a fascist.


Indeed he needed to go and set it up so there was an election to do so but that wasn't good enough for the fascicts and they decided to forgo the agreement and riot.



How about you support your claim against the entire Ukraine government. Specifically please explain / link sources that every member of the Ukraine government is acting as a Fascist.

Again trying to put words in my mouth, did I say ALL of the government?

Now how would you describe the current situation in Ukraine? Are you honestly denying that there is fascicts sitting in power there at the moment? Hand on your heart you really think that the people currently in power there are ok? Would you want them in power in your country?
edit on 9-4-2014 by sosobad because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 08:23 AM
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sosobad

Vovin

Xcathdra

Vovin
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Who cares about your interpretation of Ukraine law?? This is the fight against fascism that threatens to draw the world into war! Are you with the fascists or against the fascists???



Based on the RT article, did they not revert back to the 2004 Constitution?


Again, are you with fascists or against fascists? It is a yes or no answer.

Fascism is a hostile and aggressive threat to world peace and there is no way to morally justify it unless you are with the fascists. Moral justification goes beyond legal justification. I'm sure the SS had laws allowing them to murder and experiment on people like cattle. Do you think they were justified because it was within their law? So what difference does it make if Ukraine was under this or that constitution?


Side stepping the question once again, looks like he is with the fascists, even if he doesn't want to admit to such.


There's no point with that fella, he's either on the job or is brainwashed beyond repair.

Just looking here explains it all, and it will absolutely not matter what the facts are, what the morality is, regardless of the facts, it'll always be like this with him;


Secondly I am against Fascist, and presently they reside in Moscow and Crimea.


So he's against Fascism, but while Neo-Nazis are stomping thought the streets of Kiev on torch parades, all that doesn't matter, because in his head Fascists on the streets are not real, to him the real ones sit only in his version of imaginary Moscow and Crimea.

That kind of mentality is completely detached from reality, it exists in a virtual construct of propaganda and twisted disinformation. In situations like that it just doesn't matter what you say, because every attempt to deliver factual information will be rejected, ignored, and when it begins to get through, it will be violently rejected. Exactly like those Neo-Nazi extremist in Ukraine right now, all they want to do is kill all Russian speaking people, as they openly scream about it at their rallies, but hey, to some the real Fascists hide in secret bunkers and plot evil doings. These actual, factual extremists that are busy ripping Ukraine apart have no morals, no law, no reason, they were trained at NATO training camps in Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania, their only purpose is brainwashed canon fodder to throw at Russia.

Go ahead and show this guy videos where Ukrainian Neo-Nazis are openly calling for genocide of Russians and Jews, where they hail Bandera as a hero, the guy whose soldiers were murdering children by literally bashing them against a building corner until they die. See what his reaction will be. To him that historical fact will simply not matter, it won't matter there are survivors of Banderas atrocities living in Ukraine to this day, and they don't want the the murderers to return.

After he once again ignores it all, try this, tell him that Banderas murder squads executed entire villages of Ukrainian Jews, and that if that's what he's for, you'll make sure to report it to ADL. They actually do keep a database of all matters involving the genocide of Jews.

This guy is consistency defending and supporting genocidal Nazis that purposefully exterminate people based on their ethnicity, so he simply might be antisemitic and that's why he keeps covering up for Ukrainian Neo-Nazis.

www.tabletmag.com...

All of this is exactly what took place in Syria, and all other "springs". Exact same social dynamics technology. To radicalize the youth and set them against entire establishment, while the puppets secure key power positions to serve their puppet masters.

Same old crap over and over again, and only shills and zombies refuse to see it, so don't keep trying to change this fellas mind, he's either a paid shill or a poor brainwashed zombie.

Save your strength for better things

edit on 9-4-2014 by renden because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 09:20 AM
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sosobad
Haha nice job at trying to put words in my mouth

I didn't.



sosobad
Where did I mention in my post about illegal or coup?

Where im my post did I say you mentioned it? Had you read my post you would know what the question was.




sosobad
Indeed he needed to go and set it up so there was an election to do so but that wasn't good enough for the fascicts and they decided to forgo the agreement and riot.

Re-read the agreement and what occurred. It does not support your statement.




sosobad
Again trying to put words in my mouth, did I say ALL of the government?

You did in the typical blanket classification instead of individual observations. See your quote below and please point out where it states only some members of the Ukraine government / specific individuals in the Ukraine government.


Anyone that is in favour of the current government in Ukraine only shows that they are massive hypocrites, they claim that freedom of the Ukrainian people is what is at stake and then defend fascists!? Last time I checked fascism is not the most tolerant of beliefs.
edit on 9-4-2014 by sosobad because: (no reason given)





sosobad
Now how would you describe the current situation in Ukraine?

The former President signed an agreement reinstating the 2004 Constitution among other things. The Parliament then held a vote to impeach him and remove him from office, which they did in accordance with the 2004 constitution. The members of Parliament were / are also the ones that were elected by the Ukrainian people, making the action lawful and establishes the legitimacy of their actions / interim government.

Russia then invaded Ukraine and is currently using Spetnaz / GRU inside east and south Ukraine in an effort to create riots to justify a second Russian invasion deeper into Ukraine.



sosobad
Are you honestly denying that there is fascicts sitting in power there at the moment?

This would be another one of your claims that implies the whole government and yet you offer nothing to support your claim.
Please, tell me which members of Ukraine Parliament are fascists and please link to your source to support your claim.

I am saying there is a lawful government in Ukraine and you and others are desperately trying to ignore that fact. Again it goes back to unraveling the entire position of Putin / Russia / Crimea / Ukraine. Even you guys are doing this, ignoring the facts while trying to focus on something trivial.



sosobad
Hand on your heart you really think that the people currently in power there are ok? Would you want them in power in your country?
edit on 9-4-2014 by sosobad because: (no reason given)

And once again we have a member, you, who did not bother to answer the question posed and instead concentrated on a trivial issue in an effort to change the topic.

RT Reported the 2004 Constitution is what was agreed to and the agreement shows it in action essentially immediately. Since you and others are all about non west media, please answer the question using RT.



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 09:39 AM
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renden
There's no point with that fella, he's either on the job or is brainwashed beyond repair.

Actually it would be educated and familiar with the region. But bravo for going after me instead of refuting the facts.



renden
Just looking here explains it all, and it will absolutely not matter what the facts are, what the morality is, regardless of the facts, it'll always be like this with him;

Funny - Facts that seem to support your side are ok yet facts that undermine it and it does not matter? Like I said, if you had facts to refute the claims you would have done so by now. Instead you are doing anything but.




renden
So he's against Fascism, but while Neo-Nazis are stomping thought the streets of Kiev on torch parades, all that doesn't matter, because in his head Fascists on the streets are not real, to him the real ones sit only in his version of imaginary Moscow and Crimea.

Please link to your source that shows "Neo-Nazis are currently stomping thought the streets of Kiev".




renden
That kind of mentality is completely detached from reality, it exists in a virtual construct of propaganda and twisted disinformation.

You guys are the ones who support Putin / RT media. All it requires to become re-attached to reality would be for you guys to research and decide for yourself instead of taking a position you cant support.

Had you had the facts to refute, you would have posted them. Once again you attack the poster.




renden
In situations like that it just doesn't matter what you say, because every attempt to deliver factual information will be rejected, ignored, and when it begins to get through, it will be violently rejected.

If you or the others would actually post factual information, including the sources they come from, the discussion would not be a big game of round robin that you and others are playing.




renden
Exactly like those Neo-Nazi extremist in Ukraine right now, all they want to do is kill all Russian speaking people, as they openly scream about it at their rallies, but hey, to some the real Fascists hide in secret bunkers and plot evil doings.

Source to support your claim please.




renden
These actual, factual extremists that are busy ripping Ukraine apart have no morals, no law, no reason, they were trained at NATO training camps in Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania, their only purpose is brainwashed canon fodder to throw at Russia.

Ironic its ok for Russia to train people and ok for them to conduct their affairs as they see fit within their own borders. What occurs in NATO countries are really none of Russia's business. A position you guys have taken time and again when talking about Russian military movement inside Crimea, East/South Ukraine and their illegal occupation of Transnistria.

As for no morals or ethics Putin and Yanukovych have ethics that would raise eyebrows in the court of Caligula.




renden
Go ahead and show this guy videos where Ukrainian Neo-Nazis are openly calling for genocide of Russians and Jews, where they hail Bandera as a hero, the guy whose soldiers were murdering children by literally bashing them against a building corner until they die. See what his reaction will be. To him that historical fact will simply not matter, it won't matter there are survivors of Banderas atrocities living in Ukraine to this day, and they don't want the the murderers to return.

Posting a video without any context does not make it fact. We know this because Russia was reporting that there were riots all over Ukraine, yet magically only used video from the protests in Kiev. Nothing else occurred, yet Russia will lie and apparently a lot of people will buy into it.



renden
After he once again ignores it all, try this, tell him that Banderas murder squads executed entire villages of Ukrainian Jews, and that if that's what he's for, you'll make sure to report it to ADL. They actually do keep a database of all matters involving the genocide of Jews.

Cant refute the facts so you once again attack the poster.




renden
This guy is consistency defending and supporting genocidal Nazis that purposefully exterminate people based on their ethnicity, so he simply might be antisemitic and that's why he keeps covering up for Ukrainian Neo-Nazis.

www.tabletmag.com...

Cant refute the facts you attack the poster. In the time it took you to type your post, you should have been able to link to sources that refute the facts. Since there are no facts that support the claims you and Putin / Yanukovych / Hitler are making, how to you support your position?




renden
All of this is exactly what took place in Syria, and all other "springs". Exact same social dynamics technology. To radicalize the youth and set them against entire establishment, while the puppets secure key power positions to serve their puppet masters.

What we see in East / South Ukraine is what we saw when Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia's one failing in this invasion was using the same playbook they used in Crimea.

As for Syria the UN once again does not support your position.



renden
Same old crap over and over again, and only shills and zombies refuse to see it, so don't keep trying to change this fellas mind, he's either a paid shill or a poor brainwashed zombie.

Cant refute the facts you attack the poster. If you had the facts to support your claims you would have posted them. Instead you "make claims" and try to pass them as facts.

sad really.



renden
Save your strength for better things

edit on 9-4-2014 by renden because: (no reason given)

The follow up invasion into East / South Ukraine by Russia.

I would say if that occurs you guys will need all the strength you can get as it will completely blow up in Putins faces.

So here is a novel idea - Refute the facts and stop the personal attacks.
Refuting facts means you should post the information that supports your claims. It does not mean to ignore the points while attacking the poster.



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 09:42 AM
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Xcathdra
Russia then invaded Ukraine and is currently using Spetnaz / GRU inside east and south Ukraine in an effort to create riots to justify a second Russian invasion deeper into Ukraine.


Where are you from?

I can't wait for Russia to invade your personal bunker, so please make sure to keep us all updated with reports on how Spetnaz / GRU and orcs from middle earth are ravaging your fridge, with plans to invade deeper into your bunker.



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 09:44 AM
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renden

Xcathdra
Russia then invaded Ukraine and is currently using Spetnaz / GRU inside east and south Ukraine in an effort to create riots to justify a second Russian invasion deeper into Ukraine.


Where are you from?

I can't wait for Russia to invade your personal bunker, so please make sure to keep us all updated with reports on how Spetnaz / GRU and orcs from middle earth are ravaging your fridge, with plans to invade deeper into your bunker.



Sure.. right after you support your claims with facts / sources.

It would certainly go a lot farther than constantly ignoring the facts and attacking the poster.

Where are you from? My location was stated already from the very start of my participation in this thread.
edit on 9-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 09:45 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


So I'll take as you are ok with the people in power, members of Svoboda because you side stepped the question 3 times now. Go you, your mother would be proud


ps I know you are going to have a little whinge about attacking the poster
edit on 9-4-2014 by sosobad because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 09:48 AM
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sosobad
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


So I'll take as you are ok with the people in power, members of Svoboda because you side stepped the question 3 times now. Go you, your mother would be proud


I have read your post 2 times now and I am missing the part where you actually answered the question asked and provided sources to support the claims you make. Also feel free to note which members are in Svoboda, what they have done and cite the sources for the info please.

Feel free to point me in the right direction in your post where you posted that info.
edit on 9-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 09:50 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Because you didn't answer mine see how that works


Heil



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 10:04 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Actually they did not revert back to the 2004 constitution but signed an agreement that they will stop protests, that Yanukovich remains president and that he will revert constitution to the 2004 in the next days. Just a day after the agreement they became violent and Yanukovich had to flee. He didn't revert constitution, parliament did few days after. So by Ukrainian laws and constitution, he is still the president of Ukraine and reversal of constitution was illegal since he didn't sign it.

So, now all of your arguments are false.



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 01:29 PM
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baburak
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Actually they did not revert back to the 2004 constitution but signed an agreement that they will stop protests, that Yanukovich remains president and that he will revert constitution to the 2004 in the next days. Just a day after the agreement they became violent and Yanukovich had to flee. He didn't revert constitution, parliament did few days after. So by Ukrainian laws and constitution, he is still the president of Ukraine and reversal of constitution was illegal since he didn't sign it.

So, now all of your arguments are false.


I would be interested in reading this story, do you have a link for proof, like the opposing side does?

God Bless,



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 01:45 PM
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baburak
Actually they did not revert back to the 2004 constitution

As a matter of fact they did -

PDF - Agreement Yanukovych signed

RT - Ukraine president, opposition sign EU-brokered agreement on ending crisis

On Friday, Yanukovich announced early presidential elections and the return to the constitution of 2004, which limits presidential powers and widens the parliament’s authority. Ukraine’s Parliament has already adopted a law restoring the constitution of 2004 with 386 MP’s voting in favor.

Steinmeier has confirmed that the signed deal includes these points. The EU foreign ministers have welcomed Ukraine’s agreement and called for an immediate end to violence.

According to the conditions of the agreement, within 48 hours a law restoring the 2004 constitution is to be adopted and signed, after which in 10 days a national unity government is to be formed.

The agreement also states that as soon as the new constitution is adopted, no later than September, the presidential election must be held until December.




baburak
but signed an agreement that they will stop protests, that Yanukovich remains president and that he will revert constitution to the 2004 in the next days. Just a day after the agreement they became violent and Yanukovich had to flee. He didn't revert constitution, parliament did few days after. So by Ukrainian laws and constitution, he is still the president of Ukraine and reversal of constitution was illegal since he didn't sign it.

The agreement was more than just ending the protests though im not sure why people are ignoring them.
Yanukovych would have been President had he not been impeached.
Yanukovych has stated numerous times that he did not flee but instead attended meetings at a border city. Putin is the only person to make the claims that Yanukovych's life was in danger. Again a point Yanukovych is contradicting.



baburak
So, now all of your arguments are false.

Not so much no... The facts are there, courtesy of Russia and RT media.




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