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Russia trying to 'dismember' Ukraine through protests, Kiev says

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posted on Apr, 7 2014 @ 10:23 PM
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reply to post by renden
 


Sorry I didn't reply earlier to you. Sometimes the heat is on and I miss a reply. No worries, I understand where you're coming from. Good job on the thread.

Regards,

intrptr




posted on Apr, 7 2014 @ 10:26 PM
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MrStyx

renden

MrStyx
They took the land first, then had a "vote".


Just that quote.

I'm not pro or anti, I'm for rationality.

To you, people fighting for their very lives is just a "vote" and land grabbing. Shame on you sir, that is just disgusting, and I dare you to say to ANY people that their voice for true self determination is just something in quotation marks.

If you live in US, feel free to drive out to an Indian reservation, walk out in the middle of the street and tell them that their voice and their "vote" is something equal to a snippet from a fox infotaiment show. Good luck with that.


Now that is funny. Now its shame on me. Spare me your false concerns. Fighting for their very lives? When and where. People are fighting for their lives in Syria. They are fighting for their lives in Libya. Russia didn't care. No, nobody is fighting for their lives in Crimea or Ukraine or Russia. No that is a lie. Where are the bullets, bombs, the blood, the civil war. Only major lives lost were the protestors who got shot up in Kiev square.


That is not funny, you are just ill informed.

Just because you haven't seen videos in which Syrians thank Russia every time, just because you haven't seen videos in which Russian speaking and pro-Russian Ukrainians are beaten, kidnapped, robbed, and murdered in Ukraine, it doesn't mean that Russians don't care. They obviously do, because over 83% of them support their President, do you support yours?

I'll say it again, over a 100 million Russians fully support Putins policy, and if you crave bullets, bombs, blood and civil war in Ukraine to see just how much Russians care, then make sure to remember all those unarmed Berkut policeman that were shot on the same square, by the same sniper!

To you those lives are not major, simply because they are not even mentioned by US media. Who cares about some cops that were actually doing their civic duties instead of beating on somebody or executing them in the streets, right? The cops that were beaten, burned, gassed, and shot, yet still didn't run away like for example the fellas during Katrina. Those lives you don't seem to care about at all, but only those that suit the anti-Russian agenda, and yes, that is a shame.



Votes mean nothing nowadays. I said it. No your lone voice is not heard. Money and power talk in Russia, Money and power talk in the USA. I do dare say your vote is miniscule and means nothing in the grand outcome. I'll say it to the Native Americans, they cant even enjoy their peyote in a country they were already in. We threw em a casino tax free. Sorry for killing you all now go gamble and drink. I'll say it to all Americans. I'll say it to Crimea and Russia too. The rights of the individual are dying in every country around the world. Your vote means nothing.

Crimea was given to Ukraine by Russia, 50 some odd years ago. If Ethnic Russians did not like that. They should have packed up and left home for Russia. Fascist, Nazi, Socialist, doesn't matter who is running Ukraine. Its theirs to run, not Russia's, not the U.S. Russia giveth and now, Russia taketh away.


My vote matters, because I make it matter, and because I make it matter, my vote is not alone. I don't vote to appease the sick game and its players, I vote with every daily decision, and every dollar I spend. If that last freedom of ours will be taken away, I will vote with lead, one shot at a time, and then I will also not be alone. We are not minuscule, we are not useless, we are not apathetic. We carry what they fear most, and it's not guns, it is much, much more powerful then any gun.

If you say it to the Native Americans, be prepared to answer your self about what you have done, because in some states, Natives held an active armed resistance up until the late 60s. 1960s that is.

There are no rights of "individuals", that is a myth. There is natural law, Gods law, and rules of the game. People have rights, players have rules. To people life is a gift, to players life is a game. Peoples first right is the right for freedom, players first rule is to never let people know what the rules are, and the second rule, to never let anybody know that there's a game.

So if you want to play games, be apathetic, or live life, it's your choice, and yours alone, unless you simply give it up, by not making your vote every day you live, and then a day with out life, is a day dancing to the rules in somebodies game.

Given all of the above, it is not up to you to decide what Crimean Russians should do, they are the ones making their choices and standing by them. I for one respect that, and only wish more people in US would pay attention to how it's done - a true vote for freedom, not just endless, empty games and BS politics.
edit on 7-4-2014 by renden because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 7 2014 @ 10:37 PM
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intrptr
reply to post by renden
 


Sorry I didn't reply earlier to you. Sometimes the heat is on and I miss a reply. No worries, I understand where you're coming from. Good job on the thread.

Regards,

intrptr


Cheers.

All the best, keep it going,

Renden



posted on Apr, 7 2014 @ 10:40 PM
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Xcathdra
reply to post by Danbones
 


Read it again...

Crimea not Ukraine.



Since the former President of Ukraine was lawfully removed under the 2004 Constitution that he signed back into effect surely you cant be referring to Ukraine.
- See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

thats the line I'm referring too..and refuting



posted on Apr, 7 2014 @ 10:47 PM
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namehere
unfortunately the kgb/fsb has always been better at such things than we are(staging protests, rigging elections, propaganda, etc), so i have no doubt that the ukraine will be absorbed within 2 years or a lot smaller at least, maybe a few new countries might be created even.
edit on 7-4-2014 by namehere because: (no reason given)


so you are saying the 6 billion dollars obama spent manipulating ukraine was wasted?



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 03:42 AM
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reply to post by Danbones
 


RT - Ukraine president, opposition sign EU-brokered agreement on ending crisis


Ukraine's President Viktor Yanukovich and opposition leaders have signed an EU brokered agreement on ending the political crisis in the country.


.....................................


On Friday, Yanukovich announced early presidential elections and the return to the constitution of 2004, which limits presidential powers and widens the parliament’s authority. Ukraine’s Parliament has already adopted a law restoring the constitution of 2004 with 386 MP’s voting in favor.



According to the conditions of the agreement, within 48 hours a law restoring the 2004 constitution is to be adopted and signed, after which in 10 days a national unity government is to be formed.


From the point of signature on the agreement, the Ukraine parliament finalized the return of the 2004 Constitution. That constitution allows for the streamlined impeachment process, which is what was used and was in part based on the investigations into Yanukovych dating back to 2004.

Yanukovych's signature on the agreement is what is being referred to. The moment he signed the agreement, the 2004 Constitution was in effect the moment the Parliament passed it - 386 voted in favor out of 450. Under the Ukraine Constitution a 2/3 majority was needed and was met.

Yanukovych was removed lawfully and within the Ukraine Constitution.


Huffington Post - Ukraine Agreement Signed By President Viktor Yanukovych And Opposition For Early Election

BBC - Ukrainian president and opposition sign early poll deal

The agreement, published by the German foreign ministry, includes the following:

* - The 2004 constitution will be restored within 48 hours, and a national unity government will be formed within 10 days
Constitutional reform balancing the powers of president, government and parliament will be started immediately and completed by September


* - A presidential election will be held after the new constitution is adopted but no later than December 2014, and new electoral laws will be passed

* - An investigation into recent acts of violence will be conducted under joint monitoring from the authorities, the opposition and the Council of Europe

* - The authorities will not impose a state of emergency and both the authorities and the opposition will refrain from the use of violence

* - Illegal weapons will be handed over to interior ministry bodies

The agreement was later signed by Mr Yanukovych and opposition leaders Vitali Klitschko, Arseniy Yatsenyuk and Oleh Tyahnibok at the presidential administration headquarters in Kiev.


Here is the text of the agreement provided by the German Foreign ministry - It is in .PDF so when you click the link it will ask if you wish to download / open. The link is also contained in the BBC article above.
Ukraine Agreement signed by president yanukovych
edit on 8-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 04:03 AM
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Xcathdra


Yanukovych was removed lawfully and within the Ukraine Constitution.


Really, if you are keep repeating that for free, you're getting jipped. If your not repeating that for free, you are obviously not a lawyer.



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 06:07 AM
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renden
Really, if you are keep repeating that for free, you're getting jipped. If your not repeating that for free, you are obviously not a lawyer.


Read my post above yours and take the time to actually understand it. Even Russian media reports the same thing.

The 2004 Constitution was reinstated, which was then used to remove Yanukovych. Are you that desperate that you would actually ignore any information that does not support your / Russia's version of events?

once again you ignore the facts and attack the poster. If you are able to refute the facts I provided, you would have done so... Since you cant you attack me and try to downplay the info.

Typical.... and smacks of desperation on your part.

Refute my facts with facts or don't bother replying.
edit on 8-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 07:20 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


I found a very interesting article on this subject. Are you aware that the Svobida guy who assumed the presidency was once the head of the Ukrainian Secret Service? I didn't know that either. And it's funny, because the SBU HQ has recently started to fly the American flag.

Anyway, from the article:


Mykola Azarov resigned the Premiership on January 28 2014, and was replaced as Prime Minister by Sergiy Arbuzov. In replacing the legitimate Prime Minister with Arseniy Yatsenyuk and in terminating the powers of the Constitutional Court judges, using a proxy voting system which has been outlawed during President Yanukovich’s Presidency, and in the absence of many of the Party of Regions deputies in the Rada, the action of proclaiming Turchynov as Interim President and of replacing Government Ministers has no legal basis whatsoever and is therefore void under Ukrainian law and as per the Ukrainian Constitution.


Remember that the "Party of Regions" is Yanukovich's party, that had 134 seats in parliament. They were intimidated from the nationalist fervour and ran instead of going into the Rada to vote, where Right Sector and Svobida were calling the shots. But that's ok, because other parliamentarians voted for them:


And look at the picture showing members of the Rada holding the voting cards of other members. This explains the “vote”. Multiple voting for absentee members. Ladies and gentlemen, the photograph on the left denounces massive electoral fraud.


There were pictures of this fraud in the Rada on the net the very day that it happened. I saw them. Parliamentarians sitting in front of their voting consoles, reaching over and voting on consoles belonging to absent members. This is constitutional?



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by Vovin
 


The flaw with the article is the very same in the arguments I see coming from Pro Russian supporters. The article is not using the 2004 Constitution. In fact its using anything but Ukrainian law while ignoring facts. As an example the vote itself - where 380+ members voted to impeach the former President.

The only time I have heard "proxy" voting occurring was in the media releases from Crimea by members of the Crimean parliament. They made claims those who were Pro Ukraine were not allowed to vote, while other members casted their votes in a proxy manner to support the Pro Russian movement. I have only see than in a few media outlets and I have seen nothing at all corroborating the claims.

Under the Constitution once the President was removed, an acting President is named and elections must be held within 90 days. The appointment as acting President as in accordance with the Ukrainian Constitution.

The group of "armed Thugs" did not storm the government buildings and force a vote. The people representatives met after the 2004 Constitution was reinstated and voted to impeach Yanukovych. Armed thugs did however storm the Crimean Parliament building, taking the Crimean Prime minister into custody while appointing a hand picked replacement who as not voted on by the people.

As for the comments bout criminal investigations - Had the writer of the article did his research, he would have mentioned that Yanukovych had one of his Presidential election wins overturned for vote rigging. He has been under investigation since 2004 for the vote rigging, in addition to corruption, diverting state funds for personal use, holding secret meetings with the Russian government and failing to report those meetings to the Ukrainian government. I posted a thread discussing meetings between Yanukovych and Putin, where the acting President commented. Its suggested the meeting was an outline for what we saw in Crimea. An investigation was called for into that incident, as well as one a year or more earlier, for the same accusations.

Then you have the former President stating Crimea belongs to Ukraine. After that interview we don't see much of Mr. Yanukovych in the media anymore.

How was Yanukovych removed by 300 votes?
It was 380 +/- out of 450, with a 2/3 requirement being needed for it to pass, which it did.
The former Presidents own party voted against him in the impeachment vote.

The article is poorly written in the sense it leaves out fundamental information while at the same time outright omitting information. As an example the fact the 2004 Constitution is what was used to remove Yanukovych. Another example is the claim of proxy voting, which is an interesting claim since roll call was taken and 2 major votes were held that day, one was to vote in accepting the reinstatement of the 2004 Constitution and the second vote removing him from office (impeachment).

The article also creates a contradiction between Yanukovich and Putin. Yanukovych has stated numerous times now he never fled Kiev. The article makes the same claim yet when Putin was doing his marathon media interview he stated Yanukovych had fled because they were trying to kill him.

Which is it? Russian media has lied so often they cant even keep their own stories straight.

With that said I will at least applaud the fact you made an effort to support your argument and used a information source to support it. While I don't agree with the source or its conclusions, the effort was made so thank you.
edit on 8-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 10:58 AM
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GreenMtnBoys
As far as I'm concerned Eastern Ukraine has every right to join Russia if they want. They see the writing on the wall…..they don't want EU/US austerity, NATO, or bankers destroying their future. The West already stole their gold……the entire process has been a western takeover of a sovereign nation.


One of many post's in this propaganda thread that show people aren't stupid and don't fall for the rah rah rah America BS anymore.
The OP tries to blind us all with historically confusing geopolitical mumbo jumbo when all you have to do is look at this comment and see that people know whats really going on.
So now TPTB want us all to fear communism again? I guess the Muslim boogeyman isn't cutting it anymore.

Right now I'm way more concerned about American global corporate fascism. This is the system that will enslave us all.



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 



The flaw with the article is the very same in the arguments I see coming from Pro Russian supporters.


"Pro Russian" = Ukrainians. So these facts are coming from Ukrainians who refuse to cooperate with the junta. So these arguments don't fit your agenda.


Source

Below, the ultra-nationalist Right Sector monitors the the Parliament. Nations Presse asks:

- In these conditions, how can one imagine that the Ukrainian Assembly would not go along with the directives of the new president imposed through violence by Washington and Brussels?




This pic is among a few that clearly show radicals standing around in parliament for no other reason than to intimidate representatives. These pictures have been around for awhile, if I remember correctly from around mid-February, after Yanukovich left and parliament was trying to figure out a solution. Surprised you reject knowledge of this event since there's clear evidence of it happening.

Another thing is that you attack the writer of the source I provided because their facts don't agree with yours. Instead of accepting that they are Ukrainian and probably know their situation better than you do, you claim they are "pro-Russian" and act like you're some kind of expert on Ukrainian political processes. Aren't you American?
edit on 8-4-2014 by Vovin because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 03:10 PM
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reply to post by Vovin
 


You mean this? Voting in Rada

And actually one person voted against and was beaten in the restroom by two Svoboda members.

Today they attacked another person in Rada in front of everyona because he said that SouthEastern regions have rights too ... after that one of the members (woman) of Svoboda had an interview and she said that police and army should kill all of the protesters in the SouthEast of Ukraine. It was just one of many genocide threats in the last weeks made by Svoboda and Right Sector members.



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by baburak
 


Yes I saw that about the woman saying those things. Where I saw it, it claimed she was the speaker of the house (parliament). I almost don't want to believe how surreal this situation is.



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 10:05 PM
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Vovin
"Pro Russian" = Ukrainians. So these facts are coming from Ukrainians who refuse to cooperate with the junta. So these arguments don't fit your agenda.

Which has nothing to do with what I am talking about when it comes to the 2004 Constitution and the lawful removal of the former President.



Vovin
Below, the ultra-nationalist Right Sector monitors the the Parliament. Nations Presse asks:

- In these conditions, how can one imagine that the Ukrainian Assembly would not go along with the directives of the new president imposed through violence by Washington and Brussels?



Which has nothing to do with what I am talking about when it comes to the 2004 Constitution and the lawful removal of the former President. Also you would have been better off using Pravda as a source instead of someone blogsite.




Vovin
This pic is among a few that clearly show radicals standing around in parliament for no other reason than to intimidate representatives. These pictures have been around for awhile, if I remember correctly from around mid-February, after Yanukovich left and parliament was trying to figure out a solution. Surprised you reject knowledge of this event since there's clear evidence of it happening.

Which has nothing to do with what I am talking about when it comes to the 2004 Constitution and the lawful removal of the former President.




Vovin
Another thing is that you attack the writer of the source I provided because their facts don't agree with yours. Instead of accepting that they are Ukrainian and probably know their situation better than you do, you claim they are "pro-Russian" and act like you're some kind of expert on Ukrainian political processes. Aren't you American?
edit on 8-4-2014 by Vovin because: (no reason given)

Not at all... What I am stating is the writer failed to use correct information, instead opting for a personal opinion as opposed to fact based.

Which has nothing to do with what I am talking about when it comes to the 2004 Constitution and the lawful removal of the former President.

You have managed to completely sidestep the issues. The article you posted discusses what occurred in Kiev and the manner in which those events are being portrayed are based on non truths. The only way to undermine Ukraine and for Moscow to continue to act innocent is to portray the events in Kiev as a coup. However, the facts don't support Moscow's position, and I have shown that in the RT article with regards to the agreement the former president signed returning to the 2004 Constitution.

Based on the RT article and the agreement did Ukraine not revert back to the 2004 Constitution?
edit on 8-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 10:13 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Who cares about your interpretation of Ukraine law?? This is the fight against fascism that threatens to draw the world into war! Are you with the fascists or against the fascists???



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 10:14 PM
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Vovin
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Who cares about your interpretation of Ukraine law?? This is the fight against fascism that threatens to draw the world into war! Are you with the fascists or against the fascists???



Based on the RT article, did they not revert back to the 2004 Constitution?



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 11:11 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 





Had it been valid, the majority of the planet would have supported the actions. Since they did not rubberstamp Russian action, the action is illegal.


The majority of the planet have NWO controlled press and governments...so actions that are good for Ukrainian people by Russia will be suppressed from public thought deliberately



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 12:51 AM
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reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 


Lol...

The NWO seems to be the blame guy when no other facts are accepted because they undermine the argument. Do people ever get tired of constantly blaming the "NWO"?

In this case Russian policies are not good for Ukraine. Russia invaded Ukraine, not the NWO. Russia is restricting their media coverage to only loyal outlets, not the NWO.

The former President of Ukraine signed the agreement reinstating the 2004 constitution. The Russian government accepted the agreement.

The NWO has nothing to do with this. Russia on the other hand does.

Since others seem to have issues answering a direct question, I will ask you.

Is the Ukrainian 2004 Constitution the one currently in effect, per the RT article a few posts up?



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 01:23 AM
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Xcathdra

Vovin
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Who cares about your interpretation of Ukraine law?? This is the fight against fascism that threatens to draw the world into war! Are you with the fascists or against the fascists???



Based on the RT article, did they not revert back to the 2004 Constitution?


Again, are you with fascists or against fascists? It is a yes or no answer.

Fascism is a hostile and aggressive threat to world peace and there is no way to morally justify it unless you are with the fascists. Moral justification goes beyond legal justification. I'm sure the SS had laws allowing them to murder and experiment on people like cattle. Do you think they were justified because it was within their law? So what difference does it make if Ukraine was under this or that constitution?



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