Faith VS Science & Athiests

reply to post by 168617

Yeah, where does America fit into the puzzle?

Nowhere considering we are talking Sumerians & Muslims!!!
Why would America be in the picture???

Oh yeah, where does the Bible say Abraham was a Jew?

Abraham was the one granted the Promised Land of the Jewish people by G-d...
From the Torah... Long before the Old Testament!!!

Chapter 12
1 The Lord said to Abram, Go forth from your native land and from your father's house to the land that I will show you.

2 I will make of you a great nation,
And I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you
And curse him that curses you;
And all the families of the earth
Shall bless themselves by you."

If she knew the Qur'an that well she would know exactly what I mean.

If you'd care to share the Quranic verse you are so familiar with then please do the courtesy of returning the favour, so I, the person you are talking to, will know what you mean!!!

Peace 16!!!

FlyersFan

168617
Because there is another meaning to it which you cannot see and will never see because you are narrow minded.

No. There is no hidden double meaning. It's very straight forward. And it's not prophecy. Oh .. and I"m not a 'narrow minded' person. I don't think you know what that means.

/USELESS

No, you just cannot see it, it's sort of like I cannot see evolution.

reply to post by 168617

I bet you cut and past that from a 'creationist' site and have no idea what you just said.
Am I right? Be honest. God doesn't look kindly upon lies.

Wanna' talk mutations ... here ya' go ...
(and I"ll add the link, which you failed to do in your post)

Berkeley - Evolution/Mutations 101

The only mutations that matter to large-scale evolution are those that can be passed on to offspring. These occur in reproductive cells like eggs and sperm and are called germ line mutations.

Understanding Mutation - Berkeley

Nature.com

Mutations are essential to evolution. Every genetic feature in every organism was, initially, the result of a mutation. The new genetic variant (allele) spreads via reproduction, and differential reproduction is a defining aspect of evolution. It is easy to understand how a mutation that allows an organism to feed, grow or reproduce more effectively could cause the mutant allele to become more abundant over time. Soon the population may be quite ecologically and/or physiologically different from the original population that lacked the adaptation. Even deleterious mutations can cause evolutionary change, especially in small populations, by removing individuals that might be carrying adaptive alleles at other genes.

Most mutations occur at single points in a gene, changing perhaps a single protein, and thus could appear unimportant. For instance, genes control the structure and effectiveness of digestive enzymes in your (and all other vertebrate) salivary glands. At first glance, mutations to salivary enzymes might appear to have little potential for impacting survival. Yet it is precisely the accumulation of slight mutations to saliva that is responsible for snake venom and therefore much of snake evolution. Natural selection in some ancestral snakes has favored enzymes with increasingly more aggressive properties, but the mutations themselves have been random, creating different venoms in different groups of snakes. Snake venoms are actually a cocktail of different proteins with different effects, so genetically related species have a different mixture from other venomous snake families. The ancestors of sea snakes, coral snakes, and cobras (family Elapidae) evolved venom that attacks the nervous system while the venom of vipers (family Viperidae; including rattlesnakes and the bushmaster) acts upon the cardiovascular system. Both families have many different species that inherited a slight advantage in venom power from their ancestors, and as mutations accumulate the diversity of venoms and diversity of species increased over time.

168617

AngryCymraeg

168617
Hey, Where I come from you would be called a rat... One that isn't trustworthy. If you go running to moderators online, I'd hate to see what you do to people in real life..

Aha. Now you descend to pointless insults. How very brave & noble of you. Oh, wait...
You've admitted to trolling, you've insulted people here quite frequently, you've admitted that you have no wish to understand how Evolution works... why are you here again?

Read my last post and tell me why it's wrong if you have a PHd in evolution.

You seem to think in clichés. Plus you seem to be cutting and pasting from Creationist sites, which do not understand science or worse still misrepresent it. Mutation is a factor in evolution but not the sole source of changes.

168617
And then go read the Talmud because it speaks very highly of our kind.

Islam isn't in the Talmud.
Oh .. and remember you said this?

the Qur'an saying don't take Jews and Christians as your friends is common sense and logic.

Seriously ... you are tripping over your own tongue.

reply to post by 168617


By the way I see that you've abandoned your statement about English pagans and Stonehenge. Look it up did you?

reply to post by 168617


Don't bother I found the Verse and all I can say is well done!!!
Sarcastically...
Because you've taken the whole statement out of context which is sinful, no better than putting words into the mouth of G-d/God/Allah!!!


Peace 16!!!

CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by 168617

 

Abraham was the one granted the Promised Land of the Jewish people by G-d...
From the Torah... Long before the Old Testament!!!

Abraham wasn't a Jew.. Abraham was the Grand father of Jacob who was the father of the 12 tribes of Israel who would go on to inherit the land. Show me one verse in Genesis where it calls Abram, I mean Abraham a Jew? It actually says that many nations will be made out of him which includes Ishmaelites (Palestinians) etc.

Chapter 12
1 The Lord said to Abram, Go forth from your native land and from your father's house to the land that I will show you.

2 I will make of you a great nation,
And I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you
And curse him that curses you;
And all the families of the earth
Shall bless themselves by you."

If you'd care to share the Quranic verse you are so familiar with then please do the courtesy of returning the favour, so I, the person you are talking to, will know what you mean!!!

Peace 16!!!

5:51 - O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

Now there is another meaning to this through another verse of the Qur'an... What you see above isn't what it looks like and doesn't exactly mean don't take "Christians and Jews" as your friends.. But anyway, that's part of it.

CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by 168617

 

Don't bother I found the Verse and all I can say is well done!!!
Sarcastically...
Because you've taken the whole statement out of context which is sinful, no better than putting words into the mouth of G-d/God/Allah!!!

Peace 16!!!

So whats it mean then?

CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by 168617

 

Don't bother I found the Verse and all I can say is well done!!!
Sarcastically...
Because you've taken the whole statement out of context which is sinful, no better than putting words into the mouth of G-d/God/Allah!!!


Peace 16!!!

I haven't taken it out of context, I understand exactly what it means..

168617
What you see above isn't what it looks like ...

In my 52 years on earth (in this life) I've learned that when people claim 'it's not what it looks like' .. then it usually is EXACTLY what it looks like ... and it's never a good thing.

Husband with lipstick on his collar ... 'really honey, it's not what it looks like'
Russia invading Ukraine ... 'really, it's not what it looks like'.
Teen coming in at 3 am staggering .... 'uh .. it's not ...uh ... what it looks like ....' followed by a barf.
168617 on the Qu'ran hating on nonmuslims .... 'it's not what it looks like'

Yeah ... okay.

and doesn't exactly mean don't take "Christians and Jews" as your friends..

and yet you just told us it's logical and makes sense for Muslims not to.

FlyersFan

168617
And then go read the Talmud because it speaks very highly of our kind.

Islam isn't in the Talmud.
Oh .. and remember you said this?

the Qur'an saying don't take Jews and Christians as your friends is common sense and logic.

Seriously ... you are tripping over your own tongue.

Go read the Qur'an again because you really shouldn't comment about something you know nothing about.

168617

FlyersFan

168617
And then go read the Talmud because it speaks very highly of our kind.

Islam isn't in the Talmud.
Oh .. and remember you said this?

the Qur'an saying don't take Jews and Christians as your friends is common sense and logic.

Seriously ... you are tripping over your own tongue.

Go read the Qur'an again because you really shouldn't comment about something you know nothing about.

Says the guy trying to disprove evolution with cliches, soundbites, and straw mans. Oh and has admitted he doesn't want to learn about it.

168617
Go read the Qur'an again because you really shouldn't comment about something you know nothing about.

I've read it. I don't need to read it again to know that the Talmud isn't speaking about Muslims. (you were wrong about that) And I don't have to read it again to know that you just said it was a good thing that Muslims should not be friends with Jews and Christians because the Qu'ran says it.

Perhaps you should take your own advice and not comment on things you know nothing about - like evolution vs creationism?

Perhaps you should take your own advice and not be here talking to non-muslims ... considering that you said that advice was logical and made sense. Again ... if you think that way then why are you here? What's your agenda?

reply to post by 168617


It is meant to convey the distrust between Islam with Christians & Jewish tribes at the time it was said!!!
It wasn't prophetic... It wasn't for future reference!!!

It was designed for the times, like documentation similar to partisanship we get now from newspapers or broadcasts that side with either left or right due to mistrust!!!

It also says "intimate friends"... as in friends you trust to the death...
We all have aquantances who we wouldn't trust with our life... It doesn't mean we dislike or never befriend then!!!

Also the word "never" does not appear, which is why these things get lost in translation & religion is blamed!!!

It's impossible for Abraham to be the "Patriarch of Judaism" & not be a Jew!!!

CharlieSpeirs
It's impossible for Abraham to be the "Patriarch of Judaism" & not be a Jew!!!

Ask the Rabbi - Why is Abraham considered the first Jew?

Chabad Jewish LIbrary - Who is Considered the First Jew and Why?

Abraham, 1813-1638 BCE, is considered the first Jew.

Ask the Rabbi - Was Abraham Considered a Jew? Answer ... Yes, the first Jew

reply to post by FlyersFan


Of course a Jewish Rabbi will tell you that.

Abraham is one of the best-known people of the Bible. He's a key figure in the history of both the Jewish and Arab people. He was the great-grandfather of Judah, whose descendants became known as the Jews, and he was also the father of Ishmael, from whom many of the Arab people are descended. Abraham was a Hebrew, and although the ancestor of both, Abraham himself was neither Jew nor Arab.
Abraham From the Scriptural genealogical record comes some of the most well-known terms relating to Israelite people: Semite and Semitic originate from Noah's son Shem, and Hebrew is derived from Eber, the ancestor of Abraham. According to Bible History -

"The Sons Of Noah: Shem, Ham and Japheth...The sons of Shem: Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud and Aram. The sons of Aram: Uz, Hul, Gether and Meshech. Arphaxad was the father of Shelah, and Shelah the father of Eber. Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan. Joktan was the father of Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, Obal, Abimael, Sheba, Ophir, Havilah and Jobab. All these were sons of Joktan. Shem, Arphaxad, Shelah, Eber, Peleg, Reu, Serug, Nahor, Terah and Abram (that is, Abraham). The sons of Abraham: Isaac and Ishmael." (1 Chronicles 1:4,17-28)

From two other people come two other very well-known identities: Israelites are the descendants of Isaac's son Jacob, who God renamed Israel, and from Jacob's son Judah come the terms Jew and Jewish.

Sorry, your wrong.

168617
Sorry, your wrong.

Sorry, YOU'RE wrong. Of course a Muslim will deny it ... the patriarch of Judaism is Jewish.

Funny, you said it's a logical and sensible thing for Muslims not to have CHristians or Jews as friends...
But you are quoting a fundamentalist Christian site .. and talking to non-muslims on this thread.
Again .. since all this goes against your beliefs ... why are you here?? It's confusing ...

FlyersFan

168617
Sorry, your wrong.

Sorry, YOU'RE wrong. Of course a Muslim will deny it ... the patriarch of Judaism is Jewish.

Funny, you said it's a logical and sensible thing for Muslims not to have CHristians or Jews as friends...
But you are quoting a fundamentalist Christian site .. and talking to non-muslims on this thread.
Again .. since all this goes against your beliefs ... why are you here?? It's confusing...

Say: O people of the book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord. It is the most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But grieve not over these people without Faith. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures), and the Sabians and Christians - any who believe in Allah (God) and the Last Day and work righteousness - on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

From the very same book... Which Jews and Christians are friends with each other yet do not uphold the religious laws? Think about the Global scene. The Qur'an is telling you to turn away from the idiots who are bringing this world to the brink of WW3, not the Muslim down the street or Christian/Jew at Church/Synagogue, the ones who are misleading humanity and have you convinced that they are in fact religious when they are not. This also includes Talmud practicing Jews who do not uphold the law of the Torah but made up their own version through their Rabbi's.

How can you not see that in the Qur'an? Are you sure you read it properly? You are spiritually discerned...

mOjOm
reply to post by djeminy

 

Ok, I'm familiar with that argument actually. Here is the problem I have with it though.

Actually there is a God, but he's in fact infinitely 'more' than immature human beings at present times can comprehend!

If that is the case, then God is unable to present himself to us in a way which we could fully understand and comprehend, at even the very minimum, just the fact that he and I are in fact present to one another. How is that possible that God in all his Divinity would be unable to even allow at the minimum for me to comprehend his presence??? Not his full and complete nature, but just that he was there interacting with me in a way which I totally know is true. Not a dream like, or fuzzy vision or something, but actually there in a way I can grasp.

To say that human beings cannot comprehend him and say that is a "Fact" is not possible. How could you Know that if he's beyond our ability to comprehend??? Or are you not Human???

Hi mOjOm,

through the ages God has made his presence felt to billions upon billions of people, f.ex. by answering
their sincere and deep-felt prayers for help.
According to the prevailing belief-systems at the time, human beings formed their own impressions of
how this 'divinity' should be perceived. In the vast majority of cases this 'divinity' was given "human"
appearance and attributes. One could f.ex. refer to Michelangelo's portrayal in the Sistine Chapel.

It is only now, at this present time, that human beings are presented with a completely different
'picture', as can be glanced by the message quoted as follows:



".......
God, the Lord Almighty, has sent me, His servant, the Bearer of messages to you, that my words,
expressed by you, may reach to all peoples of the Earth.

Mankind! Your God, the Father of your spirit, bade me to speak to you.

At the dawn of earthly time, God’s youngest children pledged to their Father That they would restore
what their older brothers and sisters had destroyed.

After many ages of suffering, grief and disappointment, they have now by the power of their will, by
their love and with their Father’s help, advanced far enough so that they have overcome Darkness,
have delivered their eldest brother and have won him back to the Light and to the Home. But many
eons must still pass before they can fully redeem their pledge: to lead you, God’s very youngest
children, to His glorious Kingdom. For not until the last among you is received into the Paternal Home
will the work of love of the Youngest be fulfilled.

Mankind! Many eons must pass before you can meet with your Heavenly Father, before you can meet
with Him who, out of His profound compassion for the creatures of His fallen children, has bestowed
eternal life upon the human spirit. Many eons must still pass before your journeying is ended, for you
are as young children who comprehend not, who hear without understanding. As children you rejoice
over the colorful fruits, unconcerned that the worm has gnawed the pulp and the core. As children you
are not able to discern between glitter and gold, and with eagerness and desire you reach for the gaudy
tinsel that is of no use, while you spurn the pure and precious ore.

Yes, you are less and worse than immature; for in your blind desire for earthly treasure, for power and
honor,in your hatred and envy of one another you quarrel unceasingly and wage war upon one another,
you murder, rob and ravage and refuse to understand that the sufferings and the sorrows you thereby
bring upon others you also bring upon yourselves. Hard but just retribution will fall upon you for as long
as you continue to abuse and disdain the gift your Father has bestowed upon you—the will to seek the
good, the will to seek victory over evil. And for as long as your will is bent toward sin and misdeed,
toward lies and strife, then can the Will of your Father not prosper among you.

Hear me, all mankind! Your Father calls to you, and through His Servant He asks:

When will you pass over the threshold of childhood?

When will you open your eyes and see your imperfections?

When will you understand that you must be born to the Earth again and again so that each earthly
lifetime can bring you nearer to your God and Father?

When will you learn to follow your conscience and to heed the voice of truth, of love and of justice
that speaks to you?

When will you cease to mock those who are further advanced in knowledge?

When will you with understanding receive the children of the Light who allow themselves to be
born among you to lead you out of Darkness?

When will you learn to appreciate that which is yours without envying your neighbor or taking his
possessions from him?

When will you cease taking your own or your neighbor’s earthly life by force or by negligence1)
before that time and manner of death pre-ordained for each of you by the Lord God?

When will you cease the abominable, bloody and blasphemous wars that are constantly waged
among you?

When will you banish all race hatred and learn to honor and to love one another?

When will you let your own will meet with the Will of your Father?

And when, when will you—of whatever race you may be—all unite to bid a lasting peace welcome
among you?

These questions your Father bade me ask of you. What will be your answer? For the future rests
in your own hands; even as you desire it, even as you will it to be, so do you create your future
and that of those who come after you.

Will you continue to walk in the ways of Darkness, will you cease not to hate and persecute one
another; will you continue to allow thousands upon thousands of your brothers, husbands, fathers
and sons to be slain in deadly warfare so as to satisfy your hatred and lust for power; will you
continue to murder, rob, ravage and burn, ever tearing down what has been built up, and scattering
that which has been gathered; then shall your Father grieve over you; then shall sorrows, sufferings
and disappointments hinder the Youngest in their work of love for you; then shall your journey
toward the distant goal become endlessly long and endlessly troubled.

But will you walk in the way of the Light that the eldest of the Youngest, your leader and guide,
of his own free will has hereby shown you; will you take the hand he lovingly offers you; will you
receive with trust the message hereby presented you in the name of your Father, so as to bring
you the clarity and peace of mind that you all desire; then shall your Father rejoice in you; then
shall the children of the Light with greater joy let themselves be born among you, to lead you out
of Darkness; then shall your journey, though it become arduous and long, be shortened by many
eons. For then will the seeds your Father has planted in your heart sprout in victory over Darkness,
and blossom and bear fruit, not ten, not twenty, nor even sixty-fold, but a thousand times a
thousand-fold!

Mankind! Choose now the ways that you and those after you shall walk in the time to come! Choose
without constraint! For Almighty God compels no one, and none shall compel his neighbor. But pray
you all that your Father strengthen your will that it may overcome evil and bring you forward toward
the Light!
......."

Sincerely hope you can hear the Truth and Love above!


Cheers