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Chicago’s newly armed residents send murder rate plummeting

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posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 12:40 PM
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NonsensicalUserName
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


" less guns == less crime" ?

anyone who says that needs to edit their posts or actually read some statistics.

"less guns == less crimes where guns are used"
is probably more accurate, though I doubt you would agree with it anyway since it goes against your narative.


Who is the one with the narrative? What you are saying is like declaring progress because we have no more horse and buggy deaths on our public streets. The whole "guns crimes" as a separate statistic was invented by those with an anti-firearm freedom mindset to confabulate the truth that gun control does neither reduce crime nor make anyone safer. It's like looking down at a dead guy, stabbed through the heart, and say, "thank God the murderer didn't use a gun." It is both illogical and disingenuous.




posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 12:53 PM
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NavyDoc

Phage
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


I love the cognitive dissonance with anti self defense people. If crime is up, it must be cause of gun ownership unless there already are gun bans in place in which case it must because of something else.
He didn't actually say that. He said nothing about gun owners being the cause of increased crime.




I disagree. That's certainly the implication in the posts--that less gun ownership means less crime, and using restricted gun ownership (fallaciously) in Europe as an example.
edit on 8-4-2014 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)


The post about age and crime was to point out that crime rate are falling because the population is ageing. This is not in reference to gun crime at all. We have the same thing happening in the UK, and we don't have guns. The falling crime rate in the West is down to an ageing populaiton, not lack of guns or to giving the populace concealed carry permits.

However: fewer guns means less gun crime. Duh

I went through this debate a couple of months ago. The most important things to remember are:

There are more homicides when you let a population have guns and the excess deaths are from guns. It's harder to kill by stabbing/strangling etc.
Crime and gun homicides are about eight times more common in black Americans than white. Most gun homicide victims are black males, their killers are other black males usually. So you can't compare homicide rate between countries with different demographics fairly.
Most murder victims are repeatedly convicted criminals. Boo hoo.
A gun owned by a white owner is 43 times more likely to be used in a family suicide than for self defense.

I'm not anti gun. I own guns, and used to come from a hand gun owning family. The British are allowed to have shotguns and hunting rifles as long as they aren't criminals or crazy. We have to keep them very securely stored and be trained to use them. Most of us decline to do this.

What I am is anti handgun, their main use seems to be for crime. We very rarely see muggers or burglars with guns here. About 1/1000 muggers will have a real gun in the UK, it's about 40% in the USA. So claiming gun control means only criminals have guns is ridiculous.

You very rarely see long guns used in UK crime because you can't conceal them easily.



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 01:24 PM
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Antigod

NavyDoc

Phage
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


I love the cognitive dissonance with anti self defense people. If crime is up, it must be cause of gun ownership unless there already are gun bans in place in which case it must because of something else.
He didn't actually say that. He said nothing about gun owners being the cause of increased crime.




I disagree. That's certainly the implication in the posts--that less gun ownership means less crime, and using restricted gun ownership (fallaciously) in Europe as an example.
edit on 8-4-2014 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)


The post about age and crime was to point out that crime rate are falling because the population is ageing. This is not in reference to gun crime at all. We have the same thing happening in the UK, and we don't have guns. The falling crime rate in the West is down to an ageing populaiton, not lack of guns or to giving the populace concealed carry permits.

However: fewer guns means less gun crime. Duh

I went through this debate a couple of months ago. The most important things to remember are:

There are more homicides when you let a population have guns and the excess deaths are from guns. It's harder to kill by stabbing/strangling etc.
Crime and gun homicides are about eight times more common in black Americans than white. Most gun homicide victims are black males, their killers are other black males usually. So you can't compare homicide rate between countries with different demographics fairly.
Most murder victims are repeatedly convicted criminals. Boo hoo.
A gun owned by a white owner is 43 times more likely to be used in a family suicide than for self defense.

I'm not anti gun. I own guns, and used to come from a hand gun owning family. The British are allowed to have shotguns and hunting rifles as long as they aren't criminals or crazy. We have to keep them very securely stored and be trained to use them. Most of us decline to do this.

What I am is anti handgun, their main use seems to be for crime. We very rarely see muggers or burglars with guns here. About 1/1000 muggers will have a real gun in the UK, it's about 40% in the USA. So claiming gun control means only criminals have guns is ridiculous.

You very rarely see long guns used in UK crime because you can't conceal them easily.


But that is not entirely true in that gun control has not been found to reduce crime either, at all. The violent crime rate in the UK is still much higher than it was (including murders) than it was before you had any gun control. Compare violent crime when your granddad was a youth to today.

The reasons why handguns are used in crimes are the same reasons why they are great for self defense--portability, concealability, and maneuverability. If you are facing an intruder in your house, you may not be able to bring a long arm to bear in a confined space, or he may be able to grab the barrel as you round the corner and disarm you. You certainly can't walk around with a shotgun when you go out and it's heavy to carry a double barrel when you go about your business and you certainly won't be able to wield it if your are being carjacked.

If you are responsible and law abiding to own a shotgun or a long arm, you are responsible enough to own a handgun. As you stated above, there are many other reasons while their is crime. Gun ownership by law abiding citizens is not one of them.

It is not ridiculous to say that banning guns leads to only criminals having guns. You still have criminals with them and your citizens have less ability to defend themselves from those who use other items to commit crime.



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 01:48 PM
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NavyDoc

Antigod

NavyDoc

Antigod

NavyDoc

xuenchen

mugger
While it is good news that these citizens can finally exercise their 2nd amendment rights, the article is a bit misleading.
The first concealed carry permits were issued in late February, so the decrease in crime can’t yet be attributed to more people carrying guns. I'm sure in time, we will have a better record of how this pans out.
www.theblaze.com...


It was the mass fear and panic by the petty criminals.

They're dumb, but they knew what was going to happen, and they were also scared some people might take things into their own hands ahead of time.

I know this. I live here.

And a very good friend of mine is a Chicago Cop.

The police saw a difference right away.

And of course, many criminals didn't actually know when the CCW law was going into effect.

Rumors were all around that it was immediate.

Like I said, the petty criminals aren't that smart. They don't pay attention to laws anyway.





That's really the whole point of the deterrent effect of CCW. Criminals do not know who or when their potential victim might be armed. Even though the law wasn't really in effect, the THOUGHT they might see more CCW and this was a possible deterrent.



A lot of countries that have guns, don't allow hand guns. The UK is a prime example.

Handguns are great for crime, long guns (like rifles and shotguns) are hard to hide down the back of your pants when you want to rob a liquor store. Switzerland's guns are mainly rifles. I suspect when you find countries with guns but not so much gun crime it will be because they have mainly rifles and shotguns.


You the Swiss can buy handguns and even full auto and keep them in their homes as can the Czechs--who can even CCW like in the US with a permit. I think that you find that in Europe, rate of crime has more to do with societal factors--homogenous populations, low poverty rates, higher education, etc. than who can legally own what gun type.



The Swiss aren't allowed to have ammunition at home.

Still, there are more domestic homicides and suicides with a firearm in Switzerland than pretty much anywhere else in Europe except Finland. So much for guns not causing deaths.

The Czechs have exams and stringent criminal record checks, and secure storage. Still, czech firearms deaths are massively higher on a pc basis than the UK (1.76 vs 0.25). That's seven times higher.

Hmm, the Czechs are a mainly white group, so this is probably a baseline for white only gun deaths with fairly open access to guns. In the UK, as in America, most of our gun deaths are 'ethnic'. I wonder what the gun homicide rate is for black Americans vs white or Asian.


Yes, the Swiss can have ammunition at home.



Most types of ammunition are available for commercial sale, including full metal jacket bullet calibres for military-issue weapons; hollow point rounds are only permitted for hunters. Ammunition sales are registered only at the point of sale by recording the buyer's name in a bound book.

Like most anti-gun folks, you don't know what are you talking about do you?
The government stopped providing a tin of ammunition for them to keep at home with their militia weapon a few years ago, which is where this myth comes from, but a Swiss citizen can go down to the local gun shop and buy all of the ammunition they want on their own dime.

Higher, but still very tiny. Also, "firearms deaths" is a disingenuous number ignoring crime as a whole. The overall murder rate for he Czechs is 0.8/100,00 vs the UK's 2.08/100,000k. Even though guns are more free to the Czechs, overall their murder rate is lower, which shows that gun ownership does not increase crime.

Suicides are the highest in Japan, where there is no gun ownership at all (except the Mob of course). Thus using suicides as anti-gun data is pretty silly.


Including the culturally suicide-happy Japanese in this means what? Nothing.

There were 550 murders in the UK, for about 64 million people. So about 0.8. Not 2.08. Of course,a ten year average worked out to be more like 1.2, which is the one I usually quote. Seems we both made a mistake in our posts. Over a ten year period the Czech republic average out at about 1 per 100k. Bear in mind the Czechs do get checked before they can get a gun, not like in America. They are also lacking seething poor minority masses, which is where the high homicide rate in America comes from. The gun crime rate for Czechs and white Americans is probably pretty similar.

Bearing in mind the UK has a large poor urban black/South Asian population, whereas Switzerland is rich, white and homogenous...

You keep making the mistake of thinking I am anti gun. I am anti HANDGUN. I am anti 'giving teenage boys assault rifles' and other things like that.

Reasonably affluent white populations don't commit any major amount of gun crime. It's not them having a securely stored rifle or whatever I'm bothered about. It's the minority teenage thug with a hand gun nicked from it's legit owner tucked into his pants that worries me. And we very, very rarely get them here because they can't get hold of the guns. Most gun crimes here are replicas or airguns.



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 01:59 PM
link   

Antigod

NavyDoc

Antigod

NavyDoc

Antigod

NavyDoc

xuenchen

mugger
While it is good news that these citizens can finally exercise their 2nd amendment rights, the article is a bit misleading.
The first concealed carry permits were issued in late February, so the decrease in crime can’t yet be attributed to more people carrying guns. I'm sure in time, we will have a better record of how this pans out.
www.theblaze.com...


It was the mass fear and panic by the petty criminals.

They're dumb, but they knew what was going to happen, and they were also scared some people might take things into their own hands ahead of time.

I know this. I live here.

And a very good friend of mine is a Chicago Cop.

The police saw a difference right away.

And of course, many criminals didn't actually know when the CCW law was going into effect.

Rumors were all around that it was immediate.

Like I said, the petty criminals aren't that smart. They don't pay attention to laws anyway.





That's really the whole point of the deterrent effect of CCW. Criminals do not know who or when their potential victim might be armed. Even though the law wasn't really in effect, the THOUGHT they might see more CCW and this was a possible deterrent.



A lot of countries that have guns, don't allow hand guns. The UK is a prime example.

Handguns are great for crime, long guns (like rifles and shotguns) are hard to hide down the back of your pants when you want to rob a liquor store. Switzerland's guns are mainly rifles. I suspect when you find countries with guns but not so much gun crime it will be because they have mainly rifles and shotguns.


You the Swiss can buy handguns and even full auto and keep them in their homes as can the Czechs--who can even CCW like in the US with a permit. I think that you find that in Europe, rate of crime has more to do with societal factors--homogenous populations, low poverty rates, higher education, etc. than who can legally own what gun type.



The Swiss aren't allowed to have ammunition at home.

Still, there are more domestic homicides and suicides with a firearm in Switzerland than pretty much anywhere else in Europe except Finland. So much for guns not causing deaths.

The Czechs have exams and stringent criminal record checks, and secure storage. Still, czech firearms deaths are massively higher on a pc basis than the UK (1.76 vs 0.25). That's seven times higher.

Hmm, the Czechs are a mainly white group, so this is probably a baseline for white only gun deaths with fairly open access to guns. In the UK, as in America, most of our gun deaths are 'ethnic'. I wonder what the gun homicide rate is for black Americans vs white or Asian.


Yes, the Swiss can have ammunition at home.



Most types of ammunition are available for commercial sale, including full metal jacket bullet calibres for military-issue weapons; hollow point rounds are only permitted for hunters. Ammunition sales are registered only at the point of sale by recording the buyer's name in a bound book.

Like most anti-gun folks, you don't know what are you talking about do you?
The government stopped providing a tin of ammunition for them to keep at home with their militia weapon a few years ago, which is where this myth comes from, but a Swiss citizen can go down to the local gun shop and buy all of the ammunition they want on their own dime.

Higher, but still very tiny. Also, "firearms deaths" is a disingenuous number ignoring crime as a whole. The overall murder rate for he Czechs is 0.8/100,00 vs the UK's 2.08/100,000k. Even though guns are more free to the Czechs, overall their murder rate is lower, which shows that gun ownership does not increase crime.

Suicides are the highest in Japan, where there is no gun ownership at all (except the Mob of course). Thus using suicides as anti-gun data is pretty silly.


Including the culturally suicide-happy Japanese in this means what? Nothing.

There were 550 murders in the UK, for about 64 million people. So about 0.8. Not 2.08. Of course,a ten year average worked out to be more like 1.2, which is the one I usually quote. Seems we both made a mistake in our posts. Over a ten year period the Czech republic average out at about 1 per 100k. Bear in mind the Czechs do get checked before they can get a gun, not like in America. They are also lacking seething poor minority masses, which is where the high homicide rate in America comes from. The gun crime rate for Czechs and white Americans is probably pretty similar.

Bearing in mind the UK has a large poor urban black/South Asian population, whereas Switzerland is rich, white and homogenous...

You keep making the mistake of thinking I am anti gun. I am anti HANDGUN. I am anti 'giving teenage boys assault rifles' and other things like that.

Reasonably affluent white populations don't commit any major amount of gun crime. It's not them having a securely stored rifle or whatever I'm bothered about. It's the minority teenage thug with a hand gun nicked from it's legit owner tucked into his pants that worries me. And we very, very rarely get them here because they can't get hold of the guns. Most gun crimes here are replicas or airguns.


And it is quite illegal for a teenaged convicted felon thug to acquire a handgun here as well. It is also very illegal to have heroin as well. As demonstrated, bans do not prevent criminals from possessing something they want.

The highest murder rate in North America is in Mexico with, interestingly, the strictest gun bans. It is almost impossible for one to legally own a firearm in Mexico.

Thus, my position is that gun bans work about as well as bans on anything and only affect those who are willing to obey the law in the first place--the people you don't have to worry about.

Interesting racial twist on the post above. Are you saying that non-whites tend to be more criminal than whites?

Also, interesting comment on you being pro-gun just anti handgun. You do realize that many, if not most, of your countrymen feel the same way about your lawfully possessed long arms the same way you feel about my lawfully possessed handguns? That your long arms are just as dangerous and criminal and should not be owned at all and cite the exact same reasons to rid you of them.



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 02:06 PM
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And it is quite illegal for a teenaged convicted felon thug to acquire a handgun here as well. It is also very illegal to have heroin as well. As demonstrated, bans do not prevent criminals from possessing something they want.


Funny, because gun control really works a treat stopping them getting guns here.

Probably because we don't have a huge open border.




But that is not entirely true in that gun control has not been found to reduce crime either, at all. The violent crime rate in the UK is still much higher than it was (including murders) than it was before you had any gun control. Compare violent crime when your granddad was a youth to today.



Back then hardly anyone owned a gun. Posh people and farmers had shotguns, a few soldiers back from war had trophy guns. You know this when you are from the country in question. We've never been big on guns.

The white homicide rate in the UK has been pretty stable, we peaked about 1000, when our black youth population peaked. As in America, a disproportionate number of our murders are committed by minorities, and when you see our homicide rate hike, that shows when mass immigration started and when baby boomers hit prime murder committing age. Nothing to do with guns. Demographics again.



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 02:13 PM
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Antigod




And it is quite illegal for a teenaged convicted felon thug to acquire a handgun here as well. It is also very illegal to have heroin as well. As demonstrated, bans do not prevent criminals from possessing something they want.


Funny, because gun control really works a treat stopping them getting guns here.

Probably because we don't have a huge open border.




But that is not entirely true in that gun control has not been found to reduce crime either, at all. The violent crime rate in the UK is still much higher than it was (including murders) than it was before you had any gun control. Compare violent crime when your granddad was a youth to today.



Back then hardly anyone owned a gun. Posh people and farmers had shotguns, a few soldiers back from war had trophy guns. You know this when you are from the country in question. We've never been big on guns.

The white homicide rate in the UK has been pretty stable, we peaked about 1000, when our black youth population peaked. As in America, a disproportionate number of our murders are committed by minorities, and when you see our homicide rate hike, that shows when mass immigration started and when baby boomers hit prime murder committing age. Nothing to do with guns. Demographics again.


Exactly. Nothing to do with guns.

Does gun control actually stop them from getting guns though or are there other cultural and legal things that keep them from using them? Gun control hardly stopped the IRA from getting their hands on whatever they wanted.
edit on 8-4-2014 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 02:15 PM
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Interesting racial twist on the post above. Are you saying that non-whites tend to be more criminal than whites?
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Hispanics commit 2.5 times more homicides, black eight times more. A black male is seven time more likely to be murdered than white, and murder is the leading cause of death for young black men. Most homicide victims are black with at least one conviction. The majority of gun crime victims have multiple convictions.

You can check the crime stats. Similar whichever side of the Atlantic you are on (although no Hispanics here). Not some racist fabrication, sadly.

White countries generally have low homicide rates. White Americans are about as likely to kill or be killed as a white European in gun control area, there's only a moderate increase with guns and these tend to be from crimes of passion and spree killers, not as much economically motivated as with black gun crime.



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 02:17 PM
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Antigod



Interesting racial twist on the post above. Are you saying that non-whites tend to be more criminal than whites?
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Hispanics commit 2.5 times more homicides, black eight times more. A black male is seven time more likely to be murdered than white, and murder is the leading cause of death for young black men. Most homicide victims are black with at least one conviction. The majority of gun crime victims have multiple convictions.

You can check the crime stats. Similar whichever side of the Atlantic you are on (although no Hispanics here). Not some racist fabrication, sadly.

White countries generally have low homicide rates. White Americans are about as likely to kill or be killed as a white European in gun control area, there's only a moderate increase with guns and these tend to be from crimes of passion and spree killers, not as much economically motivated as with black gun crime.


Oh, I'm not debating your numbers at all.
If you brought up such facts here, you'd be branded a racist--which is why we cannot even begin to have an honest debate on the true nature of our problems.



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 02:24 PM
link   

NavyDoc

Antigod




And it is quite illegal for a teenaged convicted felon thug to acquire a handgun here as well. It is also very illegal to have heroin as well. As demonstrated, bans do not prevent criminals from possessing something they want.


Funny, because gun control really works a treat stopping them getting guns here.

Probably because we don't have a huge open border.




But that is not entirely true in that gun control has not been found to reduce crime either, at all. The violent crime rate in the UK is still much higher than it was (including murders) than it was before you had any gun control. Compare violent crime when your granddad was a youth to today.



Back then hardly anyone owned a gun. Posh people and farmers had shotguns, a few soldiers back from war had trophy guns. You know this when you are from the country in question. We've never been big on guns.

The white homicide rate in the UK has been pretty stable, we peaked about 1000, when our black youth population peaked. As in America, a disproportionate number of our murders are committed by minorities, and when you see our homicide rate hike, that shows when mass immigration started and when baby boomers hit prime murder committing age. Nothing to do with guns. Demographics again.


Exactly. Nothing to do with guns.

Does gun control actually stop them from getting guns though or are there other cultural and legal things that keep them from using them? Gun control hardly stopped the IRA from getting their hands on whatever they wanted.
edit on 8-4-2014 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)


Try to understand, guns have never been a major factor in UK street crime. You'd see the odd one on a bank job (sawn off shotguns) and someone might shoot someone with an old army pistol. But we've never had punks mugging people with them. When it does happen its on the national news, it's that rare.

Yes, our gun control does stop most criminals getting access to guns. Only 1/500 have anything that looks like a gun in their hand, most are fake (most gun crimes here are replicas or airguns).

Americans sent the IRA gun money, Libya sold them guns



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 02:26 PM
link   

Antigod

NavyDoc

Antigod




And it is quite illegal for a teenaged convicted felon thug to acquire a handgun here as well. It is also very illegal to have heroin as well. As demonstrated, bans do not prevent criminals from possessing something they want.


Funny, because gun control really works a treat stopping them getting guns here.

Probably because we don't have a huge open border.




But that is not entirely true in that gun control has not been found to reduce crime either, at all. The violent crime rate in the UK is still much higher than it was (including murders) than it was before you had any gun control. Compare violent crime when your granddad was a youth to today.



Back then hardly anyone owned a gun. Posh people and farmers had shotguns, a few soldiers back from war had trophy guns. You know this when you are from the country in question. We've never been big on guns.

The white homicide rate in the UK has been pretty stable, we peaked about 1000, when our black youth population peaked. As in America, a disproportionate number of our murders are committed by minorities, and when you see our homicide rate hike, that shows when mass immigration started and when baby boomers hit prime murder committing age. Nothing to do with guns. Demographics again.


Exactly. Nothing to do with guns.

Does gun control actually stop them from getting guns though or are there other cultural and legal things that keep them from using them? Gun control hardly stopped the IRA from getting their hands on whatever they wanted.
edit on 8-4-2014 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)


Try to understand, guns have never been a major factor in UK street crime. You'd see the odd one on a bank job (sawn off shotguns) and someone might shoot someone with an old army pistol. But we've never had punks mugging people with them. When it does happen its on the national news, it's that rare.

Yes, our gun control does stop most criminals getting access to guns. Only 1/500 have anything that looks like a gun in their hand, most are fake (most gun crimes here are replicas or airguns).

Americans sent the IRA gun money, Libya sold them guns


Right and gun control did not prevent them from arriving on your shores or in their hands. That just supports my point--bans do not keep guns out of the hands of those criminals who want them.
edit on 8-4-2014 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 02:31 PM
link   

NavyDoc

Antigod



Interesting racial twist on the post above. Are you saying that non-whites tend to be more criminal than whites?
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Hispanics commit 2.5 times more homicides, black eight times more. A black male is seven time more likely to be murdered than white, and murder is the leading cause of death for young black men. Most homicide victims are black with at least one conviction. The majority of gun crime victims have multiple convictions.

You can check the crime stats. Similar whichever side of the Atlantic you are on (although no Hispanics here). Not some racist fabrication, sadly.

White countries generally have low homicide rates. White Americans are about as likely to kill or be killed as a white European in gun control area, there's only a moderate increase with guns and these tend to be from crimes of passion and spree killers, not as much economically motivated as with black gun crime.


Oh, I'm not debating your numbers at all.
If you brought up such facts here, you'd be branded a racist--which is why we cannot even begin to have an honest debate on the true nature of our problems.


Same here- hung up by the ears.

Our black youths are massively more likely to be involved in street crime here, but every time the police crack down on street crime they moan about racism. It's always 'you a disproportionally targeting young black men in stop and search', when they commit most of the street crime. Who else should we stop? Little old Chinese nannas?

Basically, if there was no minority population sharing your space you wouldn't be in need of concealed carry weapons
Doesn't apply to Jews and Asians, who are safer to be around then WASPs.

As I understand it from your newspapers, black Americans are more in favour of gun control because they are seeing the deaths. Is it true?



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 02:34 PM
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You people are funny....LOL...you all really believe that CCW would actually cause TRUE criminals to stop being criminals? Maybe, it would stop silly, crackhead criminals who don't have guns themselves?

You are all aware that other ARMED criminals get targeted, robbed and killed right? In fact, a large portion of the murder victims are criminals who were caught slipping. Gang members who were caught slipping. I mean seriously, sorry to break up your Dirty Harry fantasies, but I have to bring you to the real world.

Even if you could OPEN carry, that won't prevent you from being robbed...it just assures that you will be KILLED to be robbed.

As someone well versed in the street life: A person having a gun (as most other criminals will have) does not make other prideful criminals afraid of them. The mindset isn't, "Oooohh, so ____________ is known for keeping a few "chickens" laying around. I would rob ___________ but he might have his GUN on him. Guess I better leave him alone."

No, the way that situation is handled is that instead of telling ___________ to give up his goods...he is simply SHOT on sight!!!! Then he is robbed.

Civilians (basically you funny people believing that because you have a gun you will be immune to thuggery) are generally given the chance to lay their goods down and leave with their life in a robbery. However, it seems most of you want the same level of respect armed targets are given as I described above? To simply be shot, because your gun isn't glued to your hand in the firing position. And despite the Jason Bourne movies you have watched, if it is more than one person you are not going to have a shoot out and walk away unscathed.....LOL!



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 02:34 PM
link   

NavyDoc

Antigod

NavyDoc

Antigod




And it is quite illegal for a teenaged convicted felon thug to acquire a handgun here as well. It is also very illegal to have heroin as well. As demonstrated, bans do not prevent criminals from possessing something they want.


Funny, because gun control really works a treat stopping them getting guns here.

Probably because we don't have a huge open border.




But that is not entirely true in that gun control has not been found to reduce crime either, at all. The violent crime rate in the UK is still much higher than it was (including murders) than it was before you had any gun control. Compare violent crime when your granddad was a youth to today.



Back then hardly anyone owned a gun. Posh people and farmers had shotguns, a few soldiers back from war had trophy guns. You know this when you are from the country in question. We've never been big on guns.

The white homicide rate in the UK has been pretty stable, we peaked about 1000, when our black youth population peaked. As in America, a disproportionate number of our murders are committed by minorities, and when you see our homicide rate hike, that shows when mass immigration started and when baby boomers hit prime murder committing age. Nothing to do with guns. Demographics again.


Exactly. Nothing to do with guns.

Does gun control actually stop them from getting guns though or are there other cultural and legal things that keep them from using them? Gun control hardly stopped the IRA from getting their hands on whatever they wanted.
edit on 8-4-2014 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)


Try to understand, guns have never been a major factor in UK street crime. You'd see the odd one on a bank job (sawn off shotguns) and someone might shoot someone with an old army pistol. But we've never had punks mugging people with them. When it does happen its on the national news, it's that rare.

Yes, our gun control does stop most criminals getting access to guns. Only 1/500 have anything that looks like a gun in their hand, most are fake (most gun crimes here are replicas or airguns).

Americans sent the IRA gun money, Libya sold them guns


Right and gun control did not prevent them from arriving on your shores or in their hands. That just supports my point--bans do not keep guns out of the hands of those criminals who want them.
edit on 8-4-2014 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)


IRA was different, not mainland UK. It was coming in via Ireland, not in the UK, with huge numbers of sympathizers covering their tracks. We don't get an issue with mass gun smuggling here. Some, but not much and it normally gets pulled in by the specialized task forces pretty quickly. Mainly the issue is with converted blank-firing guns, which break and have very little power, and some stuff from eastern Europe.
edit on 8-4-2014 by Antigod because: gun info.



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 02:37 PM
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spirited75
reply to post by demongoat
 


a study where the researchers spoke to criminals locked up in
prisons all across America in the 1990's found that the number
one reason a criminal did not commit a crime on a particular
person or their property was because
the criminal thought they were armed and
feared they would get shot.





Only unarmed criminals. An armed criminal would simply shoot and kill you while you were unaware.



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 02:46 PM
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Antigod

NavyDoc

Antigod



Interesting racial twist on the post above. Are you saying that non-whites tend to be more criminal than whites?
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Hispanics commit 2.5 times more homicides, black eight times more. A black male is seven time more likely to be murdered than white, and murder is the leading cause of death for young black men. Most homicide victims are black with at least one conviction. The majority of gun crime victims have multiple convictions.

You can check the crime stats. Similar whichever side of the Atlantic you are on (although no Hispanics here). Not some racist fabrication, sadly.

White countries generally have low homicide rates. White Americans are about as likely to kill or be killed as a white European in gun control area, there's only a moderate increase with guns and these tend to be from crimes of passion and spree killers, not as much economically motivated as with black gun crime.


Oh, I'm not debating your numbers at all.
If you brought up such facts here, you'd be branded a racist--which is why we cannot even begin to have an honest debate on the true nature of our problems.


Same here- hung up by the ears.

Our black youths are massively more likely to be involved in street crime here, but every time the police crack down on street crime they moan about racism. It's always 'you a disproportionally targeting young black men in stop and search', when they commit most of the street crime. Who else should we stop? Little old Chinese nannas?

Basically, if there was no minority population sharing your space you wouldn't be in need of concealed carry weapons
Doesn't apply to Jews and Asians, who are safer to be around then WASPs.

As I understand it from your newspapers, black Americans are more in favour of gun control because they are seeing the deaths. Is it true?


LOL. I'm beginning to like you. I think we are more alike than we initially thought.

A lot of black Americans are against gun control and for CCW. I am friends with several myself. Considering some of he first gun control in the US was part of Jim Crow to keep newly freed slaves disarmed, they feel that gun control has racist roots.

OTOH, a very vocal group of inner city and liberal blacks call for more gun control for several reasons. You have the Al Sharptons of the world who are following the progressive line and you have many people who blame everyone but the criminals for criminal behavior. Very common amongst the American left.



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 02:49 PM
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DZAG Wright

spirited75
reply to post by demongoat
 


a study where the researchers spoke to criminals locked up in
prisons all across America in the 1990's found that the number
one reason a criminal did not commit a crime on a particular
person or their property was because
the criminal thought they were armed and
feared they would get shot.





Only unarmed criminals. An armed criminal would simply shoot and kill you while you were unaware.


No, criminals like to go after the easiest pickings.

I find your posts illogical. "Criminals gonna criminal anyway so let's disarm innocent people. "



posted on Apr, 8 2014 @ 03:50 PM
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SO I wonder if this will lead to Chicago becoming more conservative? since people having guns are not the wrost thing maybe conservative values and principle ar enot bad either??
edit on 8-4-2014 by American-philosopher because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 07:37 AM
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It is a simple fact that EVERYWHERE in the US that gun laws are loosened in favor of honest citizens, all crime, but most especially violent crime, goes down..

The right to self-defense is an individual right of mankind, recognized in the Constitution. If you don't like the Second Amendment, then change it.

Till then however, denying it is just a leftist delusion, as the second is just as important and just as real as the other amendments.



posted on Apr, 9 2014 @ 08:40 AM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 



Agreed, logistics is key and we have won wars cause of it.

However, again in the unlikely bat crazy level fight between our military and civilians: our military has enough fire power to blast us out of the atmosphere before having to even replenish their inventory. Plus our inventory is manufactured and scattered through out the world not just back home.

My point is that civilians being armed with legal arms is not much of a deterrent for our gov't not to go to war with the civilian population. I'm not saying that they aren't going to consider armed civilians , but it would be more so for strategic or political reasons than hesitation. Without a doubt an armed population was a threat to the gov't at one time, but once we went to WMD such a biological agents,drones,stealth, missile guided systems and nuclear weapons that era ended.

Today the main thing keeping our gov't at bay is not our civilian weapons but rather politics, and what would be the purpose of wiping out a population of able body and confirmative civilians.

All I'm saying is that IMO a US civilian armed population is not really a significant threat to the American Military in a bat crazy scenario. I base this on a few things:

1. Better Armed countries with military grade weapons hasn't deterred us from going to war with them.

2. Better Armed countries with military grade weapons haven't done to good against us. Note we have the technology to blow them to smithereens, We have not done so, not because the lack of technology but rather politics , image and who knows maybe even ethics among our elected officials has had a role in it.

3. US Military grade weapons too technologically advance from civilian grade weapons. Civilians weapons are worthless when you are being attacked remotely by stealth technology. By the time you realize you are being attacked its too late.

Like I said I'm for gun ownership , but I don't see the argument that we need to be armed in case we need to get back control of our gov't as holding any water. There a many other valid reasons to have guns but that is not a realistic one in my book.

The only likely scenario that I see the civilian population winning such a war would be: for our Men and Women of the armed forces to show their c0jones and overies to stand down against the orders to attack its civilian population.

edit on 48430America/ChicagoWed, 09 Apr 2014 08:48:29 -0500000000p3042 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)



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