Nato's Eastern Europe build-up plans alarm Russia

MrSpad

TrueAmerican

MrSpad
Only at ATS would that be considered a good solid vote with nothing fishy at all lol.

A good solid vote is one that uses PAPER ballots and glass ballot boxes that all can see through. Like the way it was done in Crimea. Not electronic voting machines that can be hacked, like it is done here.

But of course only at ATS would we realize that. Which is why I don't understand wtf YOU are doing here. Oh yeah, well maybe I do.

So just to be clear if you say, lived in Texas and one day Mexican trroops showed up in the streets to protect the ethnic mexicans from whitey. They then say we are going to have a vote you can vote to be a part of Mexico or you can vote to be a semi automous Texas sort of but we are still not leaving. You can not vote to stay in the USA that is not an option. You can not campaign against the join Mexico option. You do not have time to debate or disuss your options. Just to make you feel safe while you vote we have Mexican troops at the polling stations. And you may get smacked around if you say anything negative about this vote. And we are going make sure everybody can see how you voted as you put you ballet in the box. Now that is your idea of fair vote? I do not buy you think that for one second.

I don't agree with you very often, but I agree with you here. The Crimea incident was designed to look like some kind of humanitarian operation on Russia's behalf and people are buying it hook, line and sinker. Sure, they made the whole thing look transparent with glass boxes, the works. Hey they didn't even fire a shot so it was a good thing, right? Wrong. Masked Russian troops from the Black Sea base (which Ukraine never agreed they could storm Crimea, only have their base there) stormed into Crimea, forced the Ukrainian military to stand down, stripped their weapons and told them to sit in the corner, shut down all local media, and created a referendum. This was created on THEIR terms with Ukraine not even being a check box on the ballot. I doubt that any country in the world would put up with that.

The question isn't whether Crimea should have separated from Ukraine. Crimea already had that option without Russia's intervention. How anyone can buy the pro- Russian propaganda here is beyond me.

reply to post by Wookiep


in Democracy, majority decides and they didn't have any need whatsoever to threaten people on how to vote, with so many ethnic Russians and clearly overwhelming support for Russia they were not even thinking about rigging elections.

reply to post by demus


All you're doing with responses like that is proving my point. Judging by that response I believe it's safe to assume you didn't read a WORD of what I said concerning Crimea. Don't bother posting RT vids. You've picked your side and nothing else matters, totally blinded by one-sided propaganda. If you're not going to at least pay attention, then I'm not going to bother paying attention to you.

reply to post by Wookiep


actually, I like USA.
a lot.
also I like Russia.
and every other country in the world.

I hate blood thirsty governments and the lie spreading media.
Cannot stand the dogs of war.
Hate to see and hear civilians dying.

And I always like to hear opinions from another side.

why I posted video from RT?

because others didn't bother to show people celebrating in Crimea because it didn't fit their interests.

you are talking about Crimea like everything that was happening was perfectly normal - it was not.

Violent takeover of the power by people closely connected and backed by Neo - nazi groups happened in Kyiv; so you cannot say: "they already had right for this and that"

the point for me is that it was more or less peaceful: people welcomed "Mother Russia", USA lost this one.

I will take 1000 takeovers "Crimean style" over 1 Iraq for example or any other conflict that was "legal" but destroyed more lives.

reply to post by midicon


Yes I called you it. Now your statement turns to opinion

Your statement is in quotes and you cant take that back you said and I'll quote you again.

"All I can say is 'thank god for Putin'. Without him and his timely intervention there would have been civil war in the Ukraine."

That is a statement. You didn't say in my opinion or might have been. Nothing to that effect. You chimed in as a fact. Yet your facts don't match up so now you call it an opinion. Yeah OK gotcha. You've been made

MrStyx
reply to post by midicon

 

Yes I called you it. Now your statement turns to opinion

Your statement is in quotes and you cant take that back you said and I'll quote you again.

"All I can say is 'thank god for Putin'. Without him and his timely intervention there would have been civil war in the Ukraine."

That is a statement. You didn't say in my opinion or might have been. Nothing to that effect. You chimed in as a fact. Yet your facts don't match up so now you call it an opinion. Yeah OK gotcha. You've been made

oh it's good to know that we have to use "in my opinion" or something similar to make it sure it is our opinion...
so next time I make a statement I will be careful not to use "might have been" or that could qualify merely as my opinion and not a statement...
wait, what?

demus


oh it's good to know that we have to use "in my opinion" or something similar to make it sure it is our opinion...
so next time I make a statement I will be careful not to use "might have been" or that could qualify merely as my opinion and not a statement...
wait, what?

Oh come now demus, I thought we reached an understanding, you just want to pick a fight. . Yeah you do. On ATS everything you put up is scrutinized, and facts are checked and double checked. So yeah when you make statement it will be treated as such. You can clearly see the difference in the explanation, but if you want to split hairs.

MrStyx
reply to post by midicon

 

Yes I called you it. Now your statement turns to opinion

Your statement is in quotes and you cant take that back you said and I'll quote you again.

"All I can say is 'thank god for Putin'. Without him and his timely intervention there would have been civil war in the Ukraine."

That is a statement. You didn't say in my opinion or might have been. Nothing to that effect. You chimed in as a fact. Yet your facts don't match up so now you call it an opinion. Yeah OK gotcha. You've been made

I put those words in quotations as it was something I was saying not as some sort of established fact. But if you are happy with some sort of triumphant 'gotcha' then it just shows what you are...and now I have been 'made'...smashing.

reply to post by midicon


What I am? I was never hiding my friend. I'm not speaking of the thank god portion. I enjoy religious freedoms. It was the rest that i put in quotes. That as I read it, showed no markings of an opinion. That sounded like a statement like "The sky is blue on a clear day". Fact. Smacked me dead in the face. You've since cleared that up no worries, and I apologize for any misunderstanding.

reply to post by MrStyx


The word I was thinking of was 'petty'...but I take that back.

In general I am apolitical, you know more about politics than I do but I did think if the unrest in Kiev spread to the Crimea it would end up an east west Ukraine conflict.

And now we have the sanctions saga...and the military build ups etc,
Not to mention the supposed looming threat of Russia spreading out.

It's all madness.

I didn't thank god in the literal sense...it was just an unfortunate choice of words.


I can be an idiot sometimes.

demus
reply to post by Wookiep

 

in Democracy, majority decides and they didn't have any need whatsoever to threaten people on how to vote, with so many ethnic Russians and clearly overwhelming support for Russia they were not even thinking about rigging elections.

Let me ask you this. What do you think people do when they find themselves under occupation by armed foriegn troops? Let me tell you what they do. Anything they can to ingratiate themselves. When the Nazis invaded Ukraine they were greeted as liberators. As they were in most places. Because the people were really happy to see them? No. They just do not want trouble. Remember those Iraqis celebrating the US invasion? Were they really happy to have US troops knocking down the city? No. Of course not. Welcoming invaders is what people to do to get by.

Even the most pro Russian Ukranian who was run out of office is upset that Russia took Crimea. Not even he supports that idea. If Russia really though they could win that vote they would have allowed debate and the opposition to have its input, they would have had the option to remain as is part of the Ukraine on the ballot. They would have pulled their troops from streets and invited the UN to come monitor and keep the election fair. if they had done all that and won, then they would at least have leg to stand on and places like China could back them. That would put a wrench in any western sanctions etc. If they truly though they had that kind of support they would have run a legit monitored election that nobody could argue with. That they chose no to is telling.

AP Interview: Yanukovych admits mistakes on Crimea

ROSTOV-ON-DON, Russia (AP) — Defensive and at times tearful, Ukraine's ousted president conceded Wednesday that he made a mistake when he invited Russian troops into Crimea and vowed to try to negotiate with Vladimir Putin to get the coveted Black Sea peninsula back.

"Crimea is a tragedy, a major tragedy," Viktor Yanukovych told The Associated Press in his first interview since fleeing to Russia in February, following monthslong protests focused on corruption and his decision to seek closer ties to Russia instead of the European Union.

Putin said last month that Yanukovych had asked Russia to send its troops to Crimea to protect its people — a request seen as treason by many Ukrainians. Russian troops quickly overran Crimea, which has an ethnic Russian majority, taking over government and military facilities on the pretext of protecting Russians.

Asked about the move, Yanukovych said he made a mistake.

"I was wrong," he told the AP and Russia's state NTV television, speaking in Russian. "I acted on my emotions."

and the kicker....

"We must search for ways ... so that Crimea may have the maximum degree of independence possible ... but be part of Ukraine," he said.

Apparently the relationship between Putin and Yanukovych are having issues...

andy06shake
reply to post by demus

 

Oh thats right 97% of the Ukraine backed Russia in the Crimea vote if you believe the propaganda. Which nobody with half a mind is inclined to do so but apparently thats the democratic process in action.

edit on 3-4-2014 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)

I have stated this in another thread, but I will do here again. I have communicated with about 10-15 Ukrainians who live in Crimea. They all said that the atmosphere was calm, joyful and positive. They themselves all voted for Russia, but they also saw some individuals who openly stated that they want to stay in the Ukraine. These individuals could do so without the fear of being harmed! There were security forces present, but nowhere near the voting boothes. And they were unarmed!

BTW, there were international observers present during the referendum. They could move freely, and they all report the same as the people/friends that I have communicated with.

If you or MrStyx state here that the referendum was BS, rigged and the result is pure propaganda, please show me your proof/reports of witnesses!!

cm23
I have stated this in another thread, but I will do here again. I have communicated with about 10-15 Ukrainians who live in Crimea. They all said that the atmosphere was calm, joyful and positive. They themselves all voted for Russia, but they also saw some individuals who openly stated that they want to stay in the Ukraine. These individuals could do so without the fear of being harmed! There were security forces present, but nowhere near the voting boothes. And they were unarmed!

BTW, there were international observers present during the referendum. They could move freely, and they all report the same as the people/friends that I have communicated with.

If you or MrStyx state here that the referendum was BS, rigged and the result is pure propaganda, please show me your proof/reports of witnesses!!

.

Huh.... interesting...

So there was no incidents where Ethnic Russians were being targeted by Ukrainians in Crimea, as Russia has been claiming? So there was no justification for Russia to invade Ukraine, since there were no actions against "ethnic Russians"?

Xcathdra

cm23
I have stated this in another thread, but I will do here again. I have communicated with about 10-15 Ukrainians who live in Crimea. They all said that the atmosphere was calm, joyful and positive. They themselves all voted for Russia, but they also saw some individuals who openly stated that they want to stay in the Ukraine. These individuals could do so without the fear of being harmed! There were security forces present, but nowhere near the voting boothes. And they were unarmed!

BTW, there were international observers present during the referendum. They could move freely, and they all report the same as the people/friends that I have communicated with.

If you or MrStyx state here that the referendum was BS, rigged and the result is pure propaganda, please show me your proof/reports of witnesses!!

.

Huh.... interesting...

So there was no incidents where Ethnic Russians were being targeted by Ukrainians in Crimea, as Russia has been claiming? So there was no justification for Russia to invade Ukraine, since there were no actions against "ethnic Russians"?

I was talking about the referendum! It was stated here on this thread that the referendum was rigged, the result is BS and so on. I´m just reporting that there seemed to be no problems during the referendum!

cm23

Xcathdra

cm23
I have stated this in another thread, but I will do here again. I have communicated with about 10-15 Ukrainians who live in Crimea. They all said that the atmosphere was calm, joyful and positive. They themselves all voted for Russia, but they also saw some individuals who openly stated that they want to stay in the Ukraine. These individuals could do so without the fear of being harmed! There were security forces present, but nowhere near the voting boothes. And they were unarmed!

BTW, there were international observers present during the referendum. They could move freely, and they all report the same as the people/friends that I have communicated with.

If you or MrStyx state here that the referendum was BS, rigged and the result is pure propaganda, please show me your proof/reports of witnesses!!

.

Huh.... interesting...

So there was no incidents where Ethnic Russians were being targeted by Ukrainians in Crimea, as Russia has been claiming? So there was no justification for Russia to invade Ukraine, since there were no actions against "ethnic Russians"?

I was talking about the referendum! It was stated here on this thread that the referendum was rigged, the result is BS and so on. I´m just reporting that there seemed to be no problems during the referendum!

not even Western propaganda machinery is trying to claim that Crimea referendum was rigged but some posters here are clearly more radical than the mainstream propaganda outlets.

Xcathdra

cm23
So there was no incidents where Ethnic Russians were being targeted by Ukrainians in Crimea, as Russia has been claiming? So there was no justification for Russia to invade Ukraine, since there were no actions against "ethnic Russians"?

Can you please provide a picture of this invasion that I missed where Russia invaded the Ukraine please and also this massive Russian build up of tanks along thte border that I keep hearing about.

The only pictures I have seen so far is NATO playing war games across Europe and libary pictures on TV that showed russian tanks inside of Russia from about two years ago but they got pulled from our "News" when it ws shown that our news media was telling pork pies.

Now we have NASA Playing silly games over the ISS and bankers who were behind this all along trying to upset Russia.

cm23
I was talking about the referendum! It was stated here on this thread that the referendum was rigged, the result is BS and so on. I´m just reporting that there seemed to be no problems during the referendum!

The referendum resulted because ethnic Russians were being discriminated against / etc. I still have not seen anyone in Crimea actually go on record stating they were attacked for being ethnically Russian. Your comment and contacts don't touch on that topic either.

Since the results in Crimea were based on the initial accusations of danger, I still have yet to see anyone reporting the seeing it in person.

So either the people not seeing it are lying or the Russian media that is constantly stating ethnic Russians are being attacked are lying.

demus
not even Western propaganda machinery is trying to claim that Crimea referendum was rigged but some posters here are clearly more radical than the mainstream propaganda outlets.

They don't need to claim the vote was rigged since they have outright stated it was illegal and wont be recognized. If its not recognized, there is no need to argue the "rigged" elections now is there?

Your logic on this topic is faulty.

VirusGuard
Can you please provide a picture of this invasion that I missed where Russia invaded the Ukraine please and also this massive Russian build up of tanks along thte border that I keep hearing about.

The only pictures I have seen so far is NATO playing war games across Europe and libary pictures on TV that showed russian tanks inside of Russia from about two years ago but they got pulled from our "News" when it ws shown that our news media was telling pork pies.

Now we have NASA Playing silly games over the ISS and bankers who were behind this all along trying to upset Russia.

No we have NASA suspending cooperation with Russia since they invaded Ukraine.

Sure - there are plenty of threads on this site showing Russian military units crossing the border into Ukraine, surrounding Ukrainian bases and arrestying Ukrainian military officials. There is also video of masked Russian soldiers with no insignias arresting lawfully elected officials in Crimea and arbitrarily replacing them with people who are not elected.

What you would need to do is exercise your due diligence and research on your own instead of ignoring all that has been posted because it does not support your position while asking people to continue to post more information you will just ignore, creating a stupid round robin bs argument... As you are currently doing in this thread.

Think for yourself and research... If you are unable to find your own answer, or at least information to support your position, that's on you - no one else.