FBI seizes Native American, other artifacts at rural Indiana home

OpinionatedB
reply to post by diggindirt

 

Way back when, when people found something... they sold it.

Do you know how the Dead Sea Scrolls were found? You are about to read the most extraordinary and thrilling archaeological adventure of the 20th century.

Once upon a time in the winter of 1946-47 is when our story starts. The place is the northwestern shore of the Dead Sea in Palestine. Picture a lost goat running up a cliff and into a limestone cave. A young Arab Shepherd is close behind. The Shepherd throws a rock into the cave to get the goat’s attention. He misses the goat but hits something. Strange sounds come from the cave. In the stillness of the air the Shepherd hears the sounds of broken pottery. Jum’a Muhammed the young Bedouin Shepherd yells out to his two cousins to join him.

It is uncertain which cousin first noticed the cave. Muhammed Ahmed el-Hamed, known as Muhammed the Wolf claims he was the first to enter the cave. The third teen-age cousin that accompanied the Bedouin was the oldest. His name was Khalil Musa.

These three Shepherd boys first took three scrolls out of the cave. This cave would soon be known as Qumran Cave #1. These scrolls included the complete Isaiah scroll, the Manual of Discipline, and the Habakkuk Commentary. From this cave the boys found four more scrolls. They now had seven scrolls of antiquity. What would they do with them?

The Bedouin Offer Scrolls for Sale3

On April 1947 Jum’a and Khalil, the Shepherd boys took these scrolls over to Bethlehem. They showed what they had to various antiquity dealers. One of these dealers suggested the boys go to Khalil Iskander Shahin, a Syrian Orthodox Christian who owned a cobbler shop and had an antiquities shop in the back. This cobbler was simply known as Kando. Kando offered Jum’a and Khalil £5 for the scrolls. In the future Kando would act as a middleman for the Bedouin.

www.mywordswritten.org...

It is not right to confiscate everything someone owns in order to decide if during the time purchases were made if any laws were broken and so on and so forth. People sell artifacts they find... its always been a fact of life. You cannot hold someone to new laws that were not even thought of during the time purchases were made.

You don't and never had had to dig up graves to find artifacts... never... they sell them on the street for goodness sake.

edit on 3-4-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)

Yes, I'm fully aware of that. They also steal artifacts from museums and sell them.
Do you realize how rare it is to "find" artifacts of the quality he is displaying in the video?
It is also illegal to have human remains without the required permits. The posted video plainly shows human remains in the collection. You really okay with that? Your great-grandma in somebody's warehouse with people parading by????
The FBI is looking for evidence of stolen property transported across state or national boundaries I'm thinking. I believe your TV is safe but if you have human remains in your basement, you might have reason to be fearful of law enforcement coming in and taking them away from you---even if you are 91 years old. The last time I heard, being a nonagenarian wasn't a defense in a court of law.

reply to post by diggindirt


No, I'm not okay with people having dead bodies, yet museums do it everyday. Nothing gives them the right just the same as nothing gives anyone else the right.

But then... I don't believe in desecrating the dead.. and museums and archeologists etc do it every day, for a living.

As far as my grandmother, well... if its my child that sells her dead body then there is simply not much I can say about it... their great-grandmother must have been theirs to sell. If someone dug up a grave looking for rings or jewelry or other items in the grave with her... more power to them. Not like she took it with her.

ETA

My TV is no safer than anything that wasn't specifically on the warrant related to his property. Period.

reply to post by OpinionatedB


Actually, you did present a Strawman argument.

Better definition:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

You're Person B, you've presented a distorted view of my argument by changing rare archeological artefacts to televisions, coffee pots and alarm clocks.

You then say the FBI wouldn't take them, so therefore they wouldn't take the artefacts either.

Strawman.

reply to post by TrueAmerican


God damned fascists. Man, what a joke. What excuse will they use next to procure anything of value from the public?

reply to post by diggindirt


Another tragedy about Slack farm is that it represented a unique culture, urn burials and unique works of art now scattered to the four winds, all out of context.

If they had specific information that certain items were stolen and in his possession they could get a warrant for Ithose specific items.

By removing his entire collection, the criminals in the FBI are on just another witch hunt.

OpinionatedB
reply to post by diggindirt

 

No, I'm not okay with people having dead bodies, yet museums do it everyday. Nothing gives them the right just the same as nothing gives anyone else the right.

But then... I don't believe in desecrating the dead.. and museums and archeologists etc do it every day, for a living.

As far as my grandmother, well... if its my child that sells her dead body then there is simply not much I can say about it... their great-grandmother must have been theirs to sell. If someone dug up a grave looking for rings or jewelry or other items in the grave with her... more power to them. Not like she took it with her.

ETA

My TV is no safer than anything that wasn't specifically on the warrant related to his property. Period.

edit on 3-4-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)

No, your child can't sell human remains or dig up graves to collect treasure. There are laws in place to prevent that sort of barbaric behavior. Archaeologists can't do that either. Permits must obtained if human remains are encountered. You obviously know nothing of the laws governing museums and archaeologists. Educate yourself.

As for the warrant---who said there was a warrant?
Even thought the headline, which is apparently about all you absorbed from the article, screams "seizes" there is no mention of a warrant and the other posted links clearly state that the man contacted the FBI and is working with them.

FBI spokesman Drew Northern called 91-year-old Donald C. Miller of Waldron "an amateur archaeologist," who had collected the artifacts over his lifetime. * "Mr. Miller has a large collection of artifacts and we are working with him to help him repatriate those items to the appropriate folks," Northern said. "There are treaties and statutes that deal with repatriation of cultural artifacts, and Mr. Miller is working with us to return those." Northern said he couldn't specify whether the artifacts in question were of native American or foreign origin. "But they are items of great cultural value that Mr. Miller has amassed in his private collection over the years, and the FBI is there, we have our resources meticulously cataloging and collecting and working with Mr. Miller to preserve these items," Northern said. Northern said Miller had contacted the FBI about returning the items, but couldn't elaborate on why Miller was looking to repatriate the artifacts now. "There's no way to know at this point how long the process will take," Northern said. "The goal is to do this as quickly as possible, also maintaining the integrity of the process and protecting the cultural items."

www.shelbynews.com...

You go ahead and believe whatever you want. One pseudo-journalist hoped for the exact reaction I'm seeing here---people not bothering to read and comprehend.
Why would a 91 year-old collector call the FBI? To prevent them from arresting his heirs when they attempt to sell his collection perhaps? Because this collection includes interstate artifacts they are the ones to sort it out. He obviously knows that parts of his collection are illegal to sell and wants it sorted out before he passes. Is that really so hard to understand?

I've seen dozens of people walk into museums and archaeology departments with boxes of artifacts that they wanted to "turn in" because they didn't want them in their homes. I've seen dozens walk in and ask for a valuation of a box of artifacts, ask the museum or anthropology department to buy them. But their collections could be held in a shoebox....not several warehouses...

So please, calm down, have a cuppa tea and actually read the links provided...and remember that some journalists are just as nefarious as government agencies....

reply to post by AlphaHawk


I said they legally cannot take something that is not specified in a warrant - and that specification CANNOT legally be overly broad.

Period.

So them making an overly broad warrant such as - the entirety of the house and all the premises looking for artifacts and art and seize all you find - is the same as them searching the entirety of my house and looking for anything that is electronic, and seize all you find.

This is the EXACT SAME - the only difference is the object. Warrants CANNOT be overly broad they must be specific. ie: you cannot have a BLANKET warrant, no matter if what you are looking for is artifacts or electronics. It cannot be a blanket warrant it MUST be specific.

That is what the 4th amendment protects us from - AND YOU SIT and act like because its art the 4th amendment should not apply.

Well I say the 4th amendment applies for everything - no matter what

and THAT is not a straw man - you apparently cannot understand that the 4th amendment applies to art as much as it applies to your underwear or anything else you own.

If we sit back and do nothing when the 4th amendment is trampled on when its other people - then no one will be there when it's our turn.. NO ONE.

As someone who is married to a Native American tribal member... I have ZERO sympathy for this man if he knowingly collected artifacts illegally. Keyword being KNOWINGLY. How that can be proven, I have no idea. And I won't hijack the thread, but really, Native American people have been trampled on from day 1, and I'm sick and tired of the crap-ass response of "They have casinos, they should stop bitching."

Again, if he knowingly collected things illegally, he should have consequences. I don't care how damn old he is.

FBI seizes Native American, other artifacts at rural Indiana home



By removing artifacts makes it easier to change history books again and have them republished saying something different.

reply to post by OpinionatedB


What happens if the cops raid a property with a warrant to dig up a suspected body in the back yard and they find multiple bodies, do they just leave them because they didn't have a warrant for them?

You can argue it all up you want but a human skeleton isn't the same as a coffee pot.