FBI seizes Native American, other artifacts at rural Indiana home

AlphaHawk
Nice Strawman argument.

No, it wasn't. It is an argument that you can't debate because you already lost. Thank you very much.

reply to post by TrueAmerican


Check my edit.

This isn't about winning or losing or who gets the most stars and who is popular and cool mate, this is about finding the truth.

The truth is he is cooperating with them and had been in contact for months prior as well.

reply to post by TrueAmerican


This article says Mr Miller contacted the FBI..

www.shelbynews.com...

Case closed.

reply to post by AlphaHawk


Ok then, that article puts this in a different light. Figures. I should know better than to trust CBS (MSM) as a source for ANYTHING. *sigh* Cause they damn sure made it seem like the big bad FBI SEIZED his stash. Will wait for further information. I still want to know how the FBI found out about it. I seriously doubt the geezer contacted them first. Bet you he didn't. Someone probably turned him in. Ok, done speculating. But close off roads? I mean come on! Something about this stinks. Not sure what it is, but I can smell it.

Northern said Miller had contacted the FBI about returning the items, but couldn't elaborate on why Miller was looking to repatriate the artifacts now.


Obviously the FBI made a deal with Miller, simply because the FBI couldn't elaborate on why Miller was looking to repatriate the artifacts. I bet the only reason he contacted the FBI is the threat of jail time, a typical FBI tactic to get their underhanded way.

Looking at the photo, it looks very invasive, no one would invite the FBI in like that.
www.shelbynews.com...

TrueAmerican
reply to post by AlphaHawk

 

Ok then, that article puts this in a different light. Figures. I should know better than to trust CBS (MSM) as a source for ANYTHING. *sigh* Cause they damn sure made it seem like the big bad FBI SEIZED his stash. Will wait for further information. I still want to know how the FBI found out about it. I seriously doubt the geezer contacted them first. Bet you he didn't. Someone probably turned him in. Ok, done speculating. But close off roads? I mean come on! Something about this stinks. Not sure what it is, but I can smell it.

Smells like $**t if you ask me, something is DEFIANTLY up. TrueAmerican, I see all this talk about who and where but not what...apparently the vastness of his collection is wowing people but what does this collection consist of???? stones tablets? pottery? ancient tools? all of the above?..no pictures have been released because why? is it "top secret"? My two cents: there not there for the collection, its a select few artifacts that they don't want anyone to see once this man dies and passes them on. Of course this is speculation on my part but nonetheless quite stinky indeed.

I see that there is reporting saying he initiated the contact with the FBI--I hope that is true.

Have you all checked out the home video of the collection in his basement, taken by a friend? Wow!
wishtv.com...

reply to post by imitator

I bet the only reason he contacted the FBI is the threat of jail time, a typical FBI tactic to get their underhanded way.

Well, unless we hear directly from Mr. Miller - I guess we'll never know. But, I think it's pretty fun to guess :-)

This is obviously a lifelong love - perhaps bordering on obsession. Mr. Miller might be 91, but that doesn't make him a doddering old fool - or an innocent. At least, not necessarily. He knows exactly how legitimately or not-legitimately he came by some of this stuff - and he also knows that when he dies it will end up god knows where

I don't think he contacted them because he's afraid of jail. He's handing it over so it's all cataloged, accounted for and out of danger of being lost forever - maybe to a rival or other 'collectors'. It's his after all - he spent his life on it. Right or wrong - I get it

That's my guess anyway :-)

Guilt works too - there's always guilt

Grave robbers and thieves have deprived a lot of people of their historic and cultural artifacts. Not saying he's either - but regardless of how he came by it all - I sure would love to see it

My guess is that, being 91 yrs old, Miller knows he only has a brief time 'left' on Earth and not having anyone he wants to 'will' the items to, he decided that the right thing to do would be get the items back to their country of origin...

At his age and with so many artifacts, contacting the FBI was probably the only way he could think of to get the items returned...

Also, when the FBI says that some items may have been acquired illegally, that doesn't necessarily mean that Mr. Miller is the guilty party - he could have bought things, which were being sold in some bazaar, not knowing that the seller had gotten them illegally..

Ran across a bit of interesting info. about Donald Miller (the 91 year old man who owned the collection.) Apparently he was involved at some level in the development of the 1st Atom bomb. From article:
"During his working years, Mr. Miller was employed as a school teacher, but was also involved in the development of the first nuclear bomb which process was known as the “Manhattan Project”."

www.eCanadaNow.com

P.S. My first post!

reply to post by AlphaHawk


Concerning your ETA:

Robert A. Jones, special agent in charge of the Indianapolis FBI office, would not say at a news conference specifically why the investigation was initiated, but he did say the FBI had information about Miller's collection and acted on it by deploying its art crime team.

Channel 10 News


So which is it? The FBI's story - at the very least originally was the above ^^^ Have they decided to CHANGE their story?

I Must say I am inclined to believe the first words out of someone's mouth - BEFORE they have time to think it all the way through. The FBI recieved information - and deployed a crime team to investigate Miller...

Much more logical than Miller saying hey I want to repatriate all this stuff... he is the one who knows where it came from and he is the one who can repatriate it if he wants... just call up each national museums in each country and ask them to pay for shipping... I am sure they would.


ETA

A strawman is:

A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally, is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of the original topic of argument. To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.

To replace one object with another in the exact same situation is not a straw-man, is showing you if its legally wrong for one object, then it has to be legally wrong for every object, whether that object be art or electronics. A blanket warrant is illegal, no matter if its art or electronics.

The specification on the warrant cannot be broad, it cannot say electronics, nor can it say art or artifacts. It must be specific, ie: television set (model such and such) search location: living room or bedroom - or it can say- statue of fat woman approx. 1000 years old. 7 inches high - search location: basement.

definitions.uslegal.com...

Putting the matter in a context you can better understand is never a straw-man...

reply to post by FerociousE


Very good first post it is!

I live in Shelby County Indiana...where Waldron is, next to Rush County. I saw this on the news yesterday and almost posted it, but had to leave, I'm glad you find this as shocking as I did and still do. When they first came on the news talking about this, my jaw dropped...leave him alone. He's been showing his collection to families involved in Boys' Scouts for years...Then some jealous plumber had to snitch, for what, what gain? Doesn't the FBI have more important things to worry about. Our gov surely sucks anymore.

reply to post by AlexanderDeLarge


How do you know it was a plumber who snitched?

Skyfloating
...and then there is always the danger of having artifacts that don't match the approved version of History. Can't let that happen.

I really don't think that is the case here. He's not hiding any Mayan ray guns or anything. Just stuff he's "collected" over his years of traveling around the world.

The attitude toward that kind of "collecting" has changed over the years, though. Used to be you could visit all kinds of places around the world and if you happened to have a crowbar handy you could jack the jeweled eye out of any local idol and stick it in your pocket and the locals couldn't do squat about it. Such is not the case anymore.

Yeah, you tend to kind of feel sorry for this guy, until you start considering how you would feel if this guy decided to "collect" something from the grave of your grandmother or some other ancestor. Hey, your dead grandmother didn't need that locket with your grandfather's picture in it anymore, right? Finder's keepers, loser's weepers?

The days when you could go gallivanting around the world grabbing artifacts as you see fit is pretty much over.

reply to post by Blue Shift


But back then you never had to do any graverobbing... locals were only too happy to sell off any artifact they could find for a few dollars. If the locals are selling the artifacts of their own ancestors, then it is not anyone's fault who makes the purchase.

Had I ever been faced with that I would have made the purchase as well... I do not see anything wrong with that, its their own artifacts they are selling to the highest bidder.

OpinionatedB
But back then you never had to do any graverobbing... locals were only too happy to sell off any artifact they could find for a few dollars. If the locals are selling the artifacts of their own ancestors, then it is not anyone's fault who makes the purchase.

Well, hopefully he kept the receipts.

reply to post by Blue Shift


lol... I have a houseful of stuff... not one receipt. If the FBI came knocking on my door I couldn't prove I owned any of it...I never keep receipts beyond 30 days.. I cannot stand trash and there is no need to keep receipts laying around making a mess.

I could not imagine having to provide proof... I cannot even prove I purchased the bed I sleep in every night...lol

I read stuff like this and it just amazes me... we are supposed to follow the 4th amendment for God's sake. If they came to my house they could end up confiscating everything, even my damn underwear... and that is scarey as hell. Living in a country where suddenly the 4th amendment no longer matters is terribly frightening.

I spent over 20 years in the field of archaeology. If this man was out looting sites, I don't care about his age, he is a thief.
The reason the FBI become involved? They had reliable information about any number of the artifacts in the collection being stolen property. That would be they had museum accession numbers on them. Having worked in a museum that was burglarized for profit, I can tell you that it is heart breaking to see these items disappear into private collections. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see some of the artifacts from our museum appear in those warehouses!
If you believe that one person can acquire that many artifacts legally, I have some serious reservations about exactly how much you know about artifacts. When an obsession is that great....legality goes out the window.
If you want to know how it really happens use google and put in "Slack Farm." I was there in the aftermath of that discovery. It was massive disrespect. National Geographic did a fine article on the massive destruction of this prehistoric/historic site.
We spent months just trying to collect and record the human bones and try to make some sense of what was left behind by the treasure hunters. They used backhoes to dig into the cemeteries. What if it were your grandparents' graves these treasure hunters were looting?
One of the men believed to be associated with the Slack Farm looting escaped prosecution for that particular crime but was convicted later of looting a site in Indiana owned by General Electric. articles.baltimoresun.com...
All this was before the Native American Graves Protection Act. In fact, the Slack Farm incident was a big boost for those of us who were trying to get protection for prehistoric graves. Kentucky led the way with it's legislation on grave desecration. Archaeologists and Natives (I am both) came together in an unprecedented manner to demand protection for prehistoric culture, particularly graves.
One note: Most of the news stories say that the looters paid the owner of the farm. That is not accurate. They paid the man who was leasing the land as farm land. The owner was not aware of the arrangement until contacted by Kentucky State Police.

Now before you go flaming and dissing me...I have no problem if you want to go artifact looking on your property. I have no problem with surface hunters who collect in farm fields. Farm machinery destroys artifacts so saving them and recording when/where they are found makes sense. However, in most states, if human remains are discovered, you must contact the authorities, usually the local coroner.
I have a big problem with people who loot graves and sell the artifacts.
The only prehistoric artifacts I own are a couple of stones I collected from the creek on my property. I have a lot of reproductions made by friends. The general public can't tell the difference.

reply to post by diggindirt


Way back when, when people found something... they sold it.

Do you know how the Dead Sea Scrolls were found? You are about to read the most extraordinary and thrilling archaeological adventure of the 20th century.

Once upon a time in the winter of 1946-47 is when our story starts. The place is the northwestern shore of the Dead Sea in Palestine. Picture a lost goat running up a cliff and into a limestone cave. A young Arab Shepherd is close behind. The Shepherd throws a rock into the cave to get the goat’s attention. He misses the goat but hits something. Strange sounds come from the cave. In the stillness of the air the Shepherd hears the sounds of broken pottery. Jum’a Muhammed the young Bedouin Shepherd yells out to his two cousins to join him.

It is uncertain which cousin first noticed the cave. Muhammed Ahmed el-Hamed, known as Muhammed the Wolf claims he was the first to enter the cave. The third teen-age cousin that accompanied the Bedouin was the oldest. His name was Khalil Musa.

These three Shepherd boys first took three scrolls out of the cave. This cave would soon be known as Qumran Cave #1. These scrolls included the complete Isaiah scroll, the Manual of Discipline, and the Habakkuk Commentary. From this cave the boys found four more scrolls. They now had seven scrolls of antiquity. What would they do with them?

The Bedouin Offer Scrolls for Sale3

On April 1947 Jum’a and Khalil, the Shepherd boys took these scrolls over to Bethlehem. They showed what they had to various antiquity dealers. One of these dealers suggested the boys go to Khalil Iskander Shahin, a Syrian Orthodox Christian who owned a cobbler shop and had an antiquities shop in the back. This cobbler was simply known as Kando. Kando offered Jum’a and Khalil £5 for the scrolls. In the future Kando would act as a middleman for the Bedouin.

www.mywordswritten.org...

It is not right to confiscate everything someone owns in order to decide if, during the time purchases were made, any laws were broken and so on and so forth. People sell artifacts they find... its always been a fact of life. You cannot hold someone to new laws that were not even thought of during the time purchases were made. Nor can you take everything someone owns, "just in case"...

You don't and never have had to dig up graves to find artifacts... never... they sell them on the street for goodness sake.