reply to post by DazDaKing
Since you agree to what is at least a rudimentary translation of the term Anunnaki, I suppose your other wrong-headed ideas (belief in the various -
which one? - King's lists, transposing Berossus' Oannes onto Adapa [they are the same, but Oannes was the Assyrian version a thousand years later] and
your odd belief in a "pre flood" civilization, when the archaeological record prior to Sumer is somewhat well-established) are slightly less annoying
At any rate, can we agree that a figurine that appears to be from the Ubaidic period depicting some sort of snake demon (though identified as
Pakistani, which would put it in the Indus Valley civilization timeframe) is not an "Anunnaki figurine?"
That was the point, after all. The OP's claims are utterly unsustainable.
In regards to your previous post - no, you still don't quite understand what I'm saying. My point really is, if we take the whole collection of
stories, the 'Anunnaki' are no where near as important as characters such as Enki, who is well depicted and documented in these ancient beliefs.
In the past I have probably incorrectly applied the word Anunnaki as to include Gods such as Enki and Enlil, where as now I understand that the group
is never directly identified.
Which is why, I believe it MAY be the group of entities that Adapa formed. They are the 7 wise sages in some stories, and the Anunnaki are the 7
Judges of the Underworld in the Epic of Gilgamesh - coincidence?
The story of Adapa is clearly one of a Hybrid creation of the 'Gods' and an Earthly creature. Back to the 'rudimentary' meaning of Anunnaki - since no
one actually knows EXACTLY what it means, the general theme seems to be a linking word between the Sky and the Earth.
I've heard princely offspring of the Sky and the Earth and I've heard 'that which came from the Sky to Earth'.
If we take the first meaning, from the context of the stories, with the Sky representing the home of the Gods and the Earth representing our home,
wouldn't that make it a fine reference to the Seven Judges/Sages, who are within the same texts described as a union of the Gods and the Earth?
I'm just speculating here, but honestly I'm not putting my hopes into any 'real', mainstream historian figuring this out any time soon.
Moving on...My 'wrong-headed' beliefs in the Sumerian Kings List?! Look Harte, I DONT BELIEVE the SKL is an actual calendar of mans history, because
we need more evidence.
That being said, if we want to analyse this from the AA POV, we can then take this SKL to be accurate, since we are assuming the ancient Sumerian
civilisation had such knowledge of things. It all depends on what 'angle' we are taking. There's more than one Devil to advocate in this world.
Once again, where did I say I had a BELIEF in a pre-flood civilisation? What I actually said was, looking at the Sumeian texts and the SKL - they both
CLEARLY suggest a pre-flood civilisation. Whether this was a global flood or local flood really doesn't matter.
What's your problem with the idea of a pre-flood civilisation? There's been multiple floods throughout our history that have probably reset parts of
civilisation and caused a rupture between what was then a pre-flood civilisation and what became the post-flood civilisation. This will happen for as
long as man is plagued by the natural disasters of the Earth - it is NOT a conspiracy.
Also, why are you SO CONVINCED of our archaeological record? We only found the majority of these Sumerian/Babylonian clay tablets in the 1900s lol.
I'm sure in the late 1800s and early 1900s you had people smugly stating that there is a clear archaeological record showing that there was no
signicant civilisation prior to the ancient Egyptians! We are discovering temples 12,000 or so years old that we didn't account for before.
We are finding small flashes of artistic expression from 40,000 BC and NOTHING ELSE around that time. Doesn't that strike you as odd? We've obviously
lost a significant part of our past, whether due to natural reasons or events such as the destruction of ancient libraries and scholarly archives.
Harte, I don't for one second believe we have a CLEAR record of our history. No chance. For crying out loud when I was a child we were taught that
there were only two advanced humanoids over the last 300,000 years - Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens. Now we have FOUR advanced humanoids who all roamed
the Earth collectively.
We are shattering our knowledge of the past all the time.
Yes, we can agree that the figurine you speak of isn't Anunnaki as far as we can conclude. Though its interesting that I believe that figurine is
reminiscent of a Naga from Ancient Indian mythology - which was a part human part sea serpent like divine creature - much like Adapa - who can be
linked to the Anunnaki.
That's just speculation however.
Ultimately, I truly couldn't care less what anyone else believes - I personally see the POSSIBILITY and therefore try to make both sides see that
this endless debate isn't really worth it.
Do you see where I stand, Harte? I see the possibility of it all coming together under an AA type scenario, and you don't. There's no other difference
between us, and at the end of the day I believe we both actually follow the 'mainstream view' of our history and conception - believe it or not.
Except, I feel that paradigm breaking apart personally for me, slowly but surely.
On another note; what interests me about all of this (regarding the early Sumerian beliefs) possibly more than any AA aspect is the fact that as far
as we know these are our FIRST TRUE STORIES. The ORIGINAL story!
That's a #ing beautiful thing man! Yeah, sure, someone can link me random myths maybe predating this or that - but the first collection of stories
around one overlapping theme comes from these guys!
And almost EVERY MAIN BELIEF prevalent today in someway originates from these stories. They ARE the source.
If we overlap the stories into the most coherent version, this is what we'd probably get:
Gods descend on Earth, establish Kingship (over 250,000 years ago if we include the SKL). They 'toil' the Earth. After 6 generations of 'Younger
Gods', the Igigi rebel to Enlil about their labour. The Igigi are in one text (can't remember name) referenced as being 300.
I believe this is where the 300 rebelling 'watchers', led by Samyaza, appear from in the Book of Enoch - who rebel against 'God' (Enlil effectively
becomes God in the Bible while stealing many good aspects of Enki's actions as well)
Enki's suggestion is to make a creation to do the work of the Gods. It is never clear if we were made as well as Adapa, or we were used to make Adapa,
or we are the offspring of Adapa - from the context of the stories.
Either way, these 'creations' are set as advisors to the Kings at the time (who ruled for stupid numbers of years according to the SKL and hence were
of 'them' and not 'us').
Some texts say we overpopulated and were sent disease and famine by Enlil, while others speak of some of the Gods breeding with us (source of
The Eridu Genesis (~2800-3000 BC) picks up from here (we were created to serve the Gods and eventually became too 'noisy').
The Gods learn of a impeding flood that will surely destroy us. Enlil/They (Anu, Enlil and Ninhursaga) decide to allow it be. Enki disagrees but is
bound to silence.
He goes against the wishes of the Gods however, and warns/instructs a man (and his family presumably) on how to survive. (All repeated in the Bible -
3000 years later)
Enlil learns of this after the flood and is enraged. Enki explains that they cannot punish the guiltless and that we were their creation and therefore
they had brought us into this state and had to take responsibility for it now.
Enlil and the other Gods agree and the decision to leave Earth to us seems to be established.
Enki begins to teach us the basics like domestication of animals and agriculture, and various Gods during this 'post-flood' period hand us 'Me's,
which are different gifts of the Gods in the Sumerian beliefs, such as Civilization itself, or knowledge of medicine for example. There's great lists
to be found of these "Me's".
At that point, humans are granted 'Kingship' (pretty sure I've seen that in a text somewhere) which corresponds to our SKL. The SKL has the post-flood
Kings ruling much more human like lengths, with a few crazy ones who were supposedly 'Demi-Gods', like Gilgamesh.
At one point all of man is said to speak to Enlil in ONE VOICE. Enki decides to confuse the tongue of man. A lot of historians are confused by this,
because Enki is 99% of the time seen as being the good guy in these texts. However, it makes perfect sense.
Enlil never had good intentions for us from the stories, but Enki did. If we all spoke to Enlil in one voice - it meant he had established total rule
of us, and received complete worship in return. Enki, understanding the dangers of this, literally gives us our 'free will' back, and allows us to
think for ourselves and against the thoughts of others.
This runs parallel to not only the Serpent in the garden of Eden but more obviously the story of the Tower of Babel.
Or the story where Enki accidentally prevents the post-flood hero the gift of immortality, by telling him not to eat the food of Anu (who had summoned
him to 'Heaven') because it is the food of death.
Anu actually offers him the food of immortality, and is offended when he refuses it, cursing him and all humans to mere mortal life spans. This
mirrors the punishment of short life stories from the Bible and such.
And then ALL of our modern history comes about. Egyptian, Ancient Greek, Ancient Hindu, Gnostic, Christian, Islamic etc beliefs pretty much all arise
from these sets of stories in one way or another - but we don't have the actual source for the story of Enlil/Enki/Anu etc other than 'primitive
humans' and localised floods.
It's flipping fascinating. All these stories of angels, demons, watchers, naga, archons, and stories of God and the Devil/Satan and so forth all trace
back to these stories in their core. Why aren't more people amazed by that!
Why does it just have to be: 'oh well, another primitive human race rambling about sky wizards because they can't explain anything'. It's just a cop
out card for people to kill all imagination and investigation into our ancient history. We should all be open minded about it.
These original stories are ironically some of the most complex and paint the 'Gods' in a more human way than any other text I've read.
All the human emotions and abstract concepts are conveyed and yet they hold consistent personalities and sometimes fall into gray areas of morality.
For example, I've read in some texts that Enki had a huge 'liking' for Earthly women, despite generally being shown as this noble and wise figure.
I believe the closest parallel we find is that of Zeus and his gang. It is blisteringly obvious that there was a HUGE influence on Ancient Egyptian
and Greek culture from these Sumerian stories that we are only now just truly learning.
Why did Ancient Egypt generally start 'advanced' and decline over centuries? The GP and Sphinx demonstrate an engineering and mathematical knowledge
that isn't rivalled for possibly over 1000 years.
I know the general theme in school is that history is linearly progressive. Therefore if you plot 3000BC to 2014 AD on a graph against our 'knowledge
and intellect' you should have a diagonal line from bottom left to top right. However, that's complete BS.
It's more a 'U' shape in fact. We have a great explosion of Civilization from 3000 BC to 2500 BC where we are writing some of the most important
stories known to man and creating the most fascinating structures to this day.
Then we have a bit of a decline until the Greeks figured out a lot from the Egyptians and continued the knowledge crusade. Remember that Egypt was
pretty much a dictatorship run Civilization at the time that was hindered scientific growth beyond the mystery schools who kept the stories of the
Then we have a massive dark period after the Greeks where really and truly we decline in EVERY SENSE up until about 1950 lol (possibly excluding the
Rennaisence and the individual efforts of great scientists/thinkers).
Seriously. If these original stories are just primitive ramblings, let me tell you what Harte - the Civilization that reigned from ~3500-2500 BC was
smarter than any other civilization to follow it until our modern day technological accomplishments.
The concepts covered in those stories - as opposed to the beliefs that mankind would later force (Heaven/Hell - Worship or Suffer) and just the
relative complexity of them for being the FIRST TRUE STORIES, and the relative impressiveness of their structures at the time (considering mostly
everyone else was running around in fur coats and spearing animals) means that SOMETHING DOESN'T QUITE ADD UP.
The fact we have Amazonian tribes who have not adopted everything they see as a God, who attack planes on sight rather than worship them as a snake
sky god, and who have never tried to build a pyramid let alone to have a complex system of worship and sacrifice.
These people aren't stupid lol. They see the universe in more detail and observe it with more focus than you or I do on a daily basis.
They would've realised by now that weather will act independent of their actions as will nature. Why would they waste their energy to build a
If someone attempted to claim Kingship over them, they will just kill him lol. If someone randomly said 'hey lads, did you know a guy called Enki
created us and I am his son so you should worship me' he would have a few spears through his body in a jiffy.
Why is it that one set of us humans got sent on this ridiculous path of scientific knowledge and technological progression while hundreds of tribes
across the world who have formed complex social systems do not have one such desire?
The only way to find out is to follow the history of our timeline to our original stories - which happen to tell us in detail what happened and why we
are on this pathway.
Yet, how do you prove to anyone that its not just primitive ramblings? Or that it is an earlier civilization? Or it is aliens? All cases can be argued
with the 'evidence' at hand in their unique ways lol - it all becomes a moot argument.
Which is why I won't take a stance. I'd rather just keep absorbing knowledge for now. Its sad that less than 1% of people I meet even know who the
But in reality, people will look back at our artefacts in 6,000 years and either think we were complete idiots or that we were ancient aliens lol.
This will never stop! It's the beauty of it I guess. The universe - the platform, the advanced humanoid body - the tool, consciousness/free-will - the
As long as this beautiful combination is possible, thousands of races will fare the stars and travel the planets. Thousands of races will have been
observed and interacted with without even realising it - whether in their past or present.
Races have been made and races have been destroyed. Kings have been claimed and Kings have been slain.
It doesn't really matter if anyone believes in AA theories or not, because one day we will be crusading space and #ing up the timelines of whatever
poor bastards. One way or another we will continue to create AA theories lol.
So, it's almost comical to attempt to claim it definitely (like some do) hasn't happened to us in our past - when you then have our earliest stories
basically telling us this is the case. Who flipping knows?
But once again, it doesn't matter. Long after we are deceased, our own race will end up disturbing the spiritual path of a primitive race out there.
Mark my words - we are a nasty creation because of the means we have come about. All we know is survival of the fittest and establishing hierarchies.
The medieval era sums up the true human character the best.
When the free will of the few affects the free will of the many, and those few encompass these exact negative human aspects - you can be sure we will
come to encompass everything that Enlil represented in those stories.
We are already trying to create AI to do our work for us lol. People want to 'download' consciousness into machines. I'm sure biologists out there
want to create intelligent life artificially. We don't know what the hell we're playing with but we're going to do all these things anyway given the
It is no different. We are repeating the exact prophecy of those stories, and becoming Gods like we were apparently allowed to do.
So, what does it matter if we were disturbed in our past or not, when the more important matter is what we will do to other races out there.
Isn't it funny/a big coincidence that ever since we detonated a nuclear bomb UFO sightings began and NUMEROUS militaries have officially reported
objects invading airspace and stopping right above nuclear storage units then accelerating from motionless to over Mach 6-7 in seconds. This is not a
Something is going on. I believe we are part of a much bigger game that we are only just beginning to truly comprehend. I honestly can't put my finger
on what it is, but my gut instinct is telling me we are missing critical knowledge of our past and present. Neither do I know how many 'layers' there
truly are to this reality.
I guess that's why I tend to give so much thought to some of these things.
Sorry - I rambled again. But it's some insight into my opinion on the whole thing. I wish you'd stop seeing me as some rival in the world of AA
theories and just as an open minded individual who's open to alternative theories to some of the stuff we have been spoon-fed our whole lives.
You don't need to checkmate me into accepting this or that is or isn't Anunnaki lol. But please do point out to me if I'm wrong about something. I
don't want to argue but rather learn.
edit on 6-4-2014 by DazDaKing because: (no reason given)
edit on 6-4-2014 by DazDaKing because: (no reason given)