American Conservatives Are Liberal Next To Libertarians

Isn't Adam a free market fundamentalist? Is that the same as a Libertarian? Political terminology was so much easier before I joined ATS.

I find free market fundamentalism an interesting ideology. I do have concerns and maybe those can be addressed here.

If there was no government, surely elites would still form in communities to take the role of "being in charge", whether they be an elite of rich individuals or organised criminals, like the Triads,mafia, drug cartels. Maybe these groups would impose some kind of taxation or "protection money"on their patch. So instead of having the ability to vote for someone to represent your interests and protect your constitutional rights, you are now subject to the rules of the most powerful group in your community.

If you don't have a national government. What would you do if another country decided to invade, like China or Russia or even Mexico? Who would be in charge of all the nations nukes and military tech? Who would have authority to use them?

It just seems like its a kind of return to the jungle, dog eat dog way of running a society. I can understand why it's appealing to some, I just doubt whether its a reality at this point in history.

woodwardjnr


If there was no government, surely elites would still form in communities to take the role of "being in charge", whether they be an elite of rich individuals or organised criminals, like the Triads,mafia, drug cartels. Maybe these groups would impose some kind of taxation or "protection money"on their patch. So instead of having the ability to vote for someone to represent your interests and protect your constitutional rights, you are now subject to the rules of the most powerful group in your community.

I`d agree with this prediction of what would happen if Libertarianism were widespread today. The world would be ruled by mafia-like cartels. We`d have "freedom" similar to Somalia.

That's why I say people aren't yet ready for true freedom, because they behave irresponsibly, like children. Libertarianism is something for the distant future, for more enlightened people.

reply to post by speculativeoptimist


I just watched the video and what I found interesting was that neither man seemed to be solidly based in any type of philosophy. The interviewer had the advantage because he knew what he was going to ask ahead of time and the interviewee had obviously been caught off guard however that doesn't excuse his apparent lack of understanding of his own positions.

The interviewer stated that he thought we don't need government. I'm not sure what that had to do with Libertarians because Libertarians aren't Anarchists.

The quick conversation about the definition of Communism was disappointing, neither man mentioned Socialism as an economic system and that is critical to any discussion of Communism. They were also unable to define "Liberal".

The interviewee was clueless as far as history was concerned, especially the Revolutionary period and WWII. He actually said that America emerged from WWII as the world's lone superpower.

The interviewer used an especially dirty trick where he got the interviewee to agree with two things that Communists and Social Democrats also believe and then implied that because the other man agreed with those two things that he agreed with Communists.

The idea that taxes are theft wasn't explored anywhere near enough in my opinion. The topic of taxes alone could take up several threads and generate many interesting viewpoints but the interviewers assertion that taxes are theft, plain and simple, implies that he has no idea what a social compact is or just dismisses it outright.

reply to post by Skyfloating


There will always be hierarchy. I don't think Libertarianism denies that. Even the animal kingdom has hierarchy. As long as we have limited resources, we will have competition, and as long as we have competition, we will have parasitic relationships where groups form with common goals to exploit the resources from everyone else.

The difference in our "civilized" structure now, compared to a post-apocalyptic scenario is who the "elites" become. In a more natural state, we have the ancient-type hero like Hercules, Achilles, Gilgamesh, even Alexander and Genghis Khan. Might and aggressiveness win out, and people gravitate to follow those people who can best protect and provide for them. In a civilized society, then the elites become Caesars, Pharaohs, and Monarchs. Instead of fighting their way to the top, they persuade their way to the top, or they are born into a ruling class that already controls the resources.

As long as the ruling class is fair, and the people are provided for adequately, then the society stays civilized. Once the wealth distribution becomes too imbalanced, then the society breaks down, and the mightiest warriors become the elite class again.

We will never reach the utopian existence where resources are unlimited and all people can live equally and unintrusively. The Native Americans might have embodied the closest humans have ever come to that utopia, but then settlers showed up and taxed the resources.

It's a funny thing, cause the older I get the more conservative I get. I think when I was younger and into my punk rock phase, I was totally an anarchist, Then I went totally left...never democrat...I don't like taxes...then I was actually a registered libertarian for a while...now I'm independent. I tend to want a way smaller government and less taxes really believe in the right to own arms...very conservative. But some of my views tend to be very libertarian though,, then my environmental views are totally to the way left of any democrat. I'm an Amazacratarian.

Skyfloating

woodwardjnr


If there was no government, surely elites would still form in communities to take the role of "being in charge", whether they be an elite of rich individuals or organised criminals, like the Triads,mafia, drug cartels. Maybe these groups would impose some kind of taxation or "protection money"on their patch. So instead of having the ability to vote for someone to represent your interests and protect your constitutional rights, you are now subject to the rules of the most powerful group in your community.

I`d agree with this prediction of what would happen if Libertarianism were widespread today. The world would be ruled by mafia-like cartels. We`d have "freedom" similar to Somalia.

That's why I say people aren't yet ready for true freedom, because they behave irresponsibly, like children. Libertarianism is something for the distant future, for more enlightened people.

I don't know why organized crime is being presumed to be associated with the free market.

greencmp
I don't know why organized crime is being presumed to be associated with the free market.

Oh come on, you know why you're just too polite to say it.

What I can't figure out is why I'm seeing so many stories in the media about Libertarians and libertarian thought. Libertarians have practically zero influence on our country, there must be some unreleased poll results sitting around somewhere that have some big-wigs hot and bothered.

why were governments, that common citizens were able to vote people in to represent them, created in the first place???....it was to give voice to people that WERE NOT wealthy and powerful....the wealthy have always had power, that was the problem. the vast majority of "others" did not. you had kings and dictators for thousands of years that represented, or were part of, the wealthy.
to say "I'm against government" is saying you want to go back to being ruled by a wealthy dictator or king

Goteborg

greencmp
I don't know why organized crime is being presumed to be associated with the free market.

Oh come on, you know why you're just too polite to say it.

What I can't figure out is why I'm seeing so many stories in the media about Libertarians and libertarian thought. Libertarians have practically zero influence on our country, there must be some unreleased poll results sitting around somewhere that have some big-wigs hot and bothered.

Indeed, I do. I think it is a very good sign that so many in the media are rabid anti-libertarians. It means that we have done something right if we require rebuke in the public square.

jimmyx
why were governments, that common citizens were able to vote people in to represent them, created in the first place???....it was to give voice to people that WERE NOT wealthy and powerful....the wealthy have always had power, that was the problem. the vast majority of "others" did not. you had kings and dictators for thousands of years that represented, or were part of, the wealthy.
to say "I'm against government" is saying you want to go back to being ruled by a wealthy dictator or king

Hmmm.

Maybe the Democratic style "vote" privileges were actually part of a master plan?

Set-up by TPTB to act as a replacement for Monarchy.

Maybe all the 19th Century political/economic theories were just an illusion.

Economic domination and insurrection is still a form of Monarchy.

Left and Right just means government types. It doesn't have to do with environmentalist or anything. People start throwing every topic into the right and left paradigm then it gets muddy and confusing.

Far left = oligarchy left = Democracy , Right = Republic far right = anarchy.

Do u prefer a Democracy, Republic, or Oligarchy? PRetty simple. And as u go down the line the government size gets smaller. Most people would probably be moderates. Me, I think government should be limited and smaller.

reply to post by speculativeoptimist


The self-proclaimed conservative in this video must not understand conservatism. The interviewer was asking a lot of questions that should have had legitimate answers, but instead the interviewee just stumbled around. This video in no way reflects the integrity or lack of integrity of conservatism. Id like to see how well the interviewer would do up against someone like Bobby Jindal or Marco Rubio or Rick Perry.

reply to post by speculativeoptimist


Man... It's such a shame to see these arguments again and again! Yet we don't move forward... I mean there really isn't much debate here! It is a slaughter! Even the guy admitting he "sounds like a liberal", and that he's getting "hit from all angles"... He was squirming and floundering! WHY???? What is so hard with saying hmmmm, okay you have a point, can you tell me more?

You're pretty much getting SMASHED on every point but you still stand there arguing, growing evermore uncomfortable.... Uncomfortable because you KNOW you are wrong and are fighting invalid points, you KNOW you are getting your ass handed to ya and you are looking like an ass!

I mean, this is just tribalism! My football team is better than your football team! I bet the guy wanted to fight Adam during this! Lol... It's some pride mixed in too, I mean can't admit we're bloody wrong can we!

But hey he did admit TAX is theft so he gets kudos from me there! I actually think with a little self reflection and a little research this guy would be an anarchist in no time, just gotta listen to the arguments... Think about it... Really THINK about it...

Adam is right and THAT is the MOST important thing here... Government should be abolished!!! Can we just get to it already please???

smithjustinb
reply to post by speculativeoptimist

 

The self-proclaimed conservative in this video must not understand conservatism. The interviewer was asking a lot of questions that should have had legitimate answers, but instead the interviewee just stumbled around. This video in no way reflects the integrity or lack of integrity of conservatism. Id like to see how well the interviewer would do up against someone like Bobby Jindal or Marco Rubio or Rick Perry.

edit on 5-4-2014 by smithjustinb because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-4-2014 by smithjustinb because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-4-2014 by smithjustinb because: (no reason given)

Ha, I'm sorry but all the above whom are career politicians are trained fo lie and derail etc... Adam would still clear the floor with them, but hey seeing as you feel you're raising the bar with these I'll throw stefan molyneux into the ring.

Adam got all this reasoning from stefan! I have NEVER seen stefan lose a debate! And he doesn't pull guys off the street! Lol

Adam is merely in training and I tell you what he's still pretty damn knowlegable on the subject. But yeah stefan is on another level... I would so love to see this debate more in the public eye but I can't see it happening some how! Lol

I think what would happen is the same as in this video, the politician would call for the end and scury away double quick! Lol

I think I'll just stick with the Lunatic Fringe.
I'm somewhere between libertarian and anarchist I suppose.
I voted for Gov. Johnson and will vote for Jesse Ventura if he runs. Not because I agree with either of them 100% but because they make more sense than any party hack I've heard.
I would have voted for Ron Paul if given the opportunity because I like his stand on many issues.
I believe the Constitution for the United States is one of the finest documents ever conceived by men.
I ran for office on the Reform Party ticket, not because I was a member of the party but because they nominated our slate as their candidate on the ballot. They had ballot access, which is a dear thing in my state.
During the more than 20 years that I was a crew chief for archaeological field schools, I ran the camps as a libertarian Dictator. (The Dictator part was due to this being a university operation for which I was responsible so I did have the final say.) With one notable exception my crews were hard-working, hard-partying, well-oiled machines that understood the goals set forth and accomplished those goals with minimal disruptions. (The one notable exception was a crew made up of 7 females. I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone---what a bunch of whiny, witchy women who couldn't understand/accept the concept of personal responsibility.) Those years working with crews from all walks of life, lots of different nationalities and varying ages of students taught me that if you respect others, outline clearly what is required and treat all equally, you will get respect and cooperation in return for your efforts.
During those years my number one rule was this: If you have a problem, take the time to think about not only the problem, but a possible solution to the problem that will be fair and equable to all involved, then come to me, present your problem and your suggested solution. My crews lived and worked together 24/5 so we had to get along and we did. Only twice in all those years did I ever have to kick a student out of the program for non-compliance. My goal was to have them leave the camp knowing more about archaeology and about getting along in a community than they did when they arrived and to have a lot of happy memories to share. From the number of students who still keep in touch, I think I accomplished that--- because they were treated like human beings, not livestock.
So, yeah, I'll stick with the Lunatic Fringe. It seems to be my niche.

reply to post by diggindirt


Voting is immoral... Ron Paul is a hypocrite... He will say it is wrong for government to be in your business, yet states can! Lol... Just doesn't add up, but yeah he does give some great speeches and I like him too don't get me wrong. But on that MAJOR point above he fails hard...

Jessie I like too of course, but I don't want anyone ruling over me, simple as that... Say jessie was awesome, say he straightened it all out... Say he was super nice and we all lived in peace and happiness... Then the seat changes hands again... Then we slip back to what we have now...

Eventually we have to admit... Gov doesn't work! Not only does it not work but it immoral!!! To see that just ask yourself, can you take money from people by force and then claim to provide them a service and keep them safe? You know kinda like the mafia does lol. Can you force people to not consume a certain product you don't like?

There is no argument here, there really isn't. It's been had... anarchism won... People just need to get up to speed now! Instead of fighting over which liar is the lesser liar!

EDIT: One final thought to ponder... How much time is spent arguing/debating over who the ruler will be? Then how much time is spent arguing/debating on the let downs? On the power grabs, injustices and false flags etc?

Imagine.... Imagine if we used this time to discuss HOW we can do what needs to be done WITHOUT government... I mean, why don't we? Why are we piling all our energy/emotion into the failed system?

It's time to move on... Long overdue actually, wake up sleepy heads...