American Conservatives Are Liberal Next To Libertarians

Ran across this today and thought it was an interesting conversation that many here may enjoy. It shows just how much gray area there is and how fortification of a single perspective, left or right, does not cover everything. Sometimes a political view encompasses variables from the opposition, and often problems out there affect both sides, so to me this vid represents the ambiguity of political principals, depending on a situation. There is no single answer as to gov or no gov, but rather a minimum gov should suffice. The conversation is all over the place, but takes us through numerous pertinent aspects of gov in our lives and what we expect and want from them. There is no yes/no answer for regulations, it is a matter of how much and how expensive. Righteousness is not exclusive to a political party either, yet becomes an attitude so often. I have experienced this, but now recognize it and continue to question my own views in an attempt to learn and find resolve.

An excerpt from an article titled "Why Liberals and Conservatives Can’t Get Along"

Tetlock: One of the big questions your book wrestles with is: Why is it so hard for liberals and conservatives to understand each other? Why is it?

Haidt: The very nature of morality — the big thing that it does that isn’t sufficiently appreciated — is that it binds us into groups that can do things in the world. In the animal kingdom, the only time you get cooperation is pretty much kinship. You get pairs of individuals occasionally. But elsewhere in the animal kingdom, it’s just family. Human beings have this incredible capacity to come together in groups and do big things. When you look back at the early history of cooperation, you always find temples, gods, religion — people circling around sacred objects that bind them together. But at the same time, it blinds them; they can’t think for themselves, or they become partisan, and they become members of the group.

Each country has its own particular battle. Liberals and conservatives are bound around different sacred principles, and they absolutely cannot understand each other. They are forbidden from understanding each other, lest they be kicked out of their tribe.

knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu...
I guess I am trying to show reasons why there seems to be such a disconnect. It does not help that pundits start each day as the spin masters, twisting up truth to serve their ratings. Politics can be so confusing and I hope for efforts to continue to find common ground as opposed to shunning one for their political view without even determining how they arrived at their conclusions. We are all on the same ride, and I do not want to be limited to sit on one side only, because life is not black and white, imo, and the issues require effort from both sides at times sometimes, which means finding common ground.

reply to post by speculativeoptimist


Right and Left linear 1d line which is based on government size. Total government < > No government

The 2d graph is based on fiscal and social views. X-line = Fiscal , Y-Line = Social

People seem to not understand the difference of measurement which has really clouded their judgments.

reply to post by speculativeoptimist

I consider myself to be a libertarian. I am not more conservative than a a 'conservative'. A conservative would hate me for my positions on LGBT, drug legalization and abortion issues.
A liberal would hate me for my positions on govt spending, 2nd Amendment and States rights.

I am about personal freedom.

It all depends on how you are defining "conservative" and "liberal" and "libertarian."

When I test myself on an graph that tests more on two axes (sp?), I'm how I describe myself -> I have socially conservative beliefs, but I don't believe in legislating them. I want small, fiscally sound government. So, I'm legally libertarian and personally socially conservative.

butcherguy
reply to post by speculativeoptimist

 

I consider myself to be a libertarian. I am not more conservative than a a 'conservative'. A conservative would hate me for my positions on LGBT, drug legalization and abortion issues.
A liberal would hate me for my positions on govt spending, 2nd Amendment and States rights.

I am about personal freedom.

I will argue the social conservative positions, but that doesn't always mean I want them legislated. I do think that we shouldn't use the law to enforce what people think of as their personal freedom on others.

reply to post by ketsuko

I have socially conservative beliefs, but I don't believe in legislating them - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yes.
That's my position on THE big social issue.

How can this be the case? Libertarians are fiscally conservative and socially liberal. We are a mix of both conservative and liberal ideals. I mean I guess with the whole smaller government thing we are definitely more conservative than republican conservatives. But using that same argument we could be called more liberal than democrat liberals since we want freedoms for many progressive things like drugs, gambling and prostitution that democrats are happy to keep illegal.

butcherguy
reply to post by speculativeoptimist

 

I consider myself to be a libertarian. I am not more conservative than a a 'conservative'. A conservative would hate me for my positions on LGBT, drug legalization and abortion issues.
A liberal would hate me for my positions on govt spending, 2nd Amendment and States rights.

I am about personal freedom.

Yet I consider myself conservative and still support gay marriage, legalization, gun rights, state rights.

I can't abide abortions, big government.

I'm just called a rat bast### by everyone else.

reply to post by speculativeoptimist


I think that is backwards. American Liberals are Conservative next to Libertarians. Actually, only Libertarians, and a smattering of Constitutionalists are actually fans of Liberty. Both Conservatives and Liberals, Democrats and Republicans all seek to impose their will on others. Libertarians seek to allow individuals the responsiblity to prosper on their own and accept whatever natural consequences come as a result of their actions.

In all actuality, we should come up with a new term to redefine "conservative" in America. It shouldl indicate a notion to stick to the nations roots and oppose change for the sake of change, but it actually seems to indicate imposed morality and close-mindedness. Our left-leaning voters want to pass more laws to assert their form of morality, and our right-leaning voters want to pass more laws to assert their form of morality, but only the Libertarians are wanting to folks to stop asserting anything and let morality find its own center.

All political positions have something to do with telling others how they are supposed to live. Libertarianism is about reducing our tendency to impose on others and instead develop their ability to make responsible choices for themselves. Its more of a psychology of societal success than a political position.

You won't see it gain widespread followers in this lifetime because people aren't ready for freedom. They`ll need Government as a parent-substitute to handle their affairs and act as a scapegoat for their silly projections. But give it only a few thousand more years and humankind will have gained the maturity and responsibility to go Libertarian.

Until then we keep busy by doing good deeds...

3shadesofblack
reply to post by speculativeoptimist

 

I think that is backwards. American Liberals are Conservative next to Libertarians. Actually, only Libertarians, and a smattering of Constitutionalists are actually fans of Liberty. Both Conservatives and Liberals, Democrats and Republicans all seek to impose their will on others. Libertarians seek to allow individuals the responsiblity to prosper on their own and accept whatever natural consequences come as a result of their actions.

In all actuality, we should come up with a new term to redefine "conservative" in America. It shouldl indicate a notion to stick to the nations roots and oppose change for the sake of change, but it actually seems to indicate imposed morality and close-mindedness. Our left-leaning voters want to pass more laws to assert their form of morality, and our right-leaning voters want to pass more laws to assert their form of morality, but only the Libertarians are wanting to folks to stop asserting anything and let morality find its own center.

edit on 2-4-2014 by 3shadesofblack because: (no reason given)

*meh*

From now on, I'm a Beezzertarian.

To heck with labels.

because life is not black and white

Yes it is which is what is creating the cognitive dissonance in the realm of the political world.

Too many shades of grey that create a fundamental lack of consistency.

Most political issues are the pot calling the kettle black.

For example someone claiming to be 'free market' which is the epitome of liberalism.

Think government has the power to force people to buy one corporate product (healthcare) and ban another one ( guns )

This is the problem.

There is no consistency.

Governments function is not to pick 'winners' or 'losers' it's job is to stay the hell out of the way.

Both right, and left fail epically on this.

No one living has ever seen a true republican, or a true democrat, a liberal or conservative.

Both sides define the other for nothing, but getting in to Washington, and staying in Washington.

That is my opinion.

Others will vary with mileage.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I'm afraid you are correct. And I do see the need for government regulations. When I buy a product off the shelf, I like to know it is mostly what it says it is. Or when I pay for my gas, I like to know I got pretty much the volume I paid for. I also like my private property rights, and I don't want my neighbor raising 4000 screaming goats in the little courtyard of his townhouse, LOL!

BUT, I hate to see folks call themselves "conservative," or "liberal," when they really don't embody those things in their decision making or votes. Every "R" or "D" vote, is a vote for bigger government and less liberty.

beezzer

3shadesofblack
reply to post by speculativeoptimist

 

I think that is backwards. American Liberals are Conservative next to Libertarians. Actually, only Libertarians, and a smattering of Constitutionalists are actually fans of Liberty. Both Conservatives and Liberals, Democrats and Republicans all seek to impose their will on others. Libertarians seek to allow individuals the responsiblity to prosper on their own and accept whatever natural consequences come as a result of their actions.

In all actuality, we should come up with a new term to redefine "conservative" in America. It shouldl indicate a notion to stick to the nations roots and oppose change for the sake of change, but it actually seems to indicate imposed morality and close-mindedness. Our left-leaning voters want to pass more laws to assert their form of morality, and our right-leaning voters want to pass more laws to assert their form of morality, but only the Libertarians are wanting to folks to stop asserting anything and let morality find its own center.

edit on 2-4-2014 by 3shadesofblack because: (no reason given)

*meh*

From now on, I'm a Beezzertarian.

To heck with labels.

I'm in! I will now self-identify as a Beezzertarian/Libertarian.

Or maybe a Tallcoolone-ian?

reply to post by butcherguy

So much hate derived from labels, it is maddening but I agree with your last sentence.
I used to consider myself liberal because I thought it meant equality, fairness and live and let live attitude. I did not even care about politics until after 911 and Faux news and some other right wing radio shows used to make me livid, so I did not care about conservative views. Then someone turned me onto Barry Goldwater Republican and I thought , that makes a lot of sense, but what happened? Oh yea sensationalist rating drive took over, and pitted so many of us against each other.
Recently I was made aware of a neoliberal movement, just when I thought neocon was the top of the destructive list! Now I see an agenda, which makes me less supportive of a liberal movement, and even more displaced and confused.

I like your guy's perspective on Libertarian and I think it suits my current views. I just want balance and common sense and reduce the animosity fervor. We can't even sit at the dinner table anymore without bickering and division. My passion lies in middle ground, although I realize some issues have no middle ground, most do imo and often we have to extract bits from different stances to find solutions. I just feel trapped by an 'either or' choice as the only choice and have seen it's destruction.

I think I will register as Libertarian next time, it seems to make the most sense overall.

3shadesofblack
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

BUT, I hate to see folks call themselves "conservative," or "liberal," when they really don't embody those things in their decision making or votes. Every "R" or "D" vote, is a vote for bigger government and less liberty.

Well said - both "sides" want power and control...nothing less.
If I was a mod I would applaud this post, but I'm afraid you'll have to settle for a star.

I'll stick with being a "people like you" that I have been labeled over and over again; what ever that is. If they mean brutally handsome, talented, party animal; I'll cop to that!

I know one thing...I'm not a sycophant of the current ATS chosen elite and Iv'e got the warnings to prove it.

Worked on Gov. Gary Johnson campaign if that means anything!

I'm conservative, pro gay marriage, but moderate on abortion. I would probably fit more conservative or center to the right. Libertarians are okay but they are close to anarchy.

I just don't believe in too much government like the left.

reply to post by neo96

Yes it is which is what is creating the cognitive dissonance in the realm of the political world.
Too many shades of grey that create a fundamental lack of consistency.
- See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

I think it is all the above, but more gray than black and white because so many needs and minds are involved. I understand your point though, but take regulations for example, that is not an either or, but a how much question. Do we need gov? Yes, but not so much. D you disagree with that? I just feel extreme viewpoints are harbored in the black and white perspective. I will acknowledge though that some things are black and white, but most is gray imho. Either way, we have black and white and gray, and none are exclusive. Sorting it all out is where the trouble arises, but that is because so often black and white as the only choices creates conundrums and nothing gets achieved.

I am not here to fight, that's for sure, I am just trying to learn and find middle ground for many of us. Guess I can't expect to find it everywhere though.

That headline should replace "American Conservatives" with "Modern Republicans." Conservativism doesn't change with the winds and the tides... it is the same today as it was when Barry Goldwater was the standard bearer of the ethos. The GOP, however, has shifted so drastically leftward in their addiction to spending, appeasement of special interest groups, and lack of testicles that they have managed to make the Libertarians look like traditional conservatives.