Hobby Lobby Hypocrisy

macman
reply to post by mOjOm

 

You are working under the premise that I believe Religious Institutions should have different rules. The shouldn't.

But.....if you and the Govt were to actually abide by the Constitution and BoR, then this crap wouldn't be an issue, because the Federal Govt was not granted any ability to either give different standing to religious/non-religious groups nor forcing someone to provide something to someone else.

The U.S. Constitution has provisions protecting Religous Organizations and Institutions.

reply to post by rickynews


The U.S. Constitution has provisions protecting peoples rights, including a woman's right to equality and choice. Organizations and institutions aren't people.

windword
reply to post by rickynews

 

The U.S. Constitution has provisions protecting peoples rights, including a woman's right to equality and choice. Organizations and institutions aren't people.

Yet, the U.S. Constitution makes no provision for tax payer subsidization, financing or funding for those who choose abortion or birth control.

reply to post by rickynews


The U.S. Constitution makes no provision for tax payer subsidization, financing or funding for roads or schools either.

windword
reply to post by rickynews

 

The U.S. Constitution makes no provision for tax payer subsidization, financing or funding for roads or schools either.

True, but birth control and abortions are not essential or necessary for the general population, yet roads are.

reply to post by windword


Equality for all people.

It doesn't equate to Tax payer funded crap, nor does it suggest in any way that a company should provide X for this person.

So, with groups not being people, you are fine with the tax exempt status removed from Planned Parenthood?

reply to post by rickynews


It protects them, but there is nothing I can find that suggest they are exempt from paying taxes.

rickynews


Yet, the U.S. Constitution makes no provision for tax payer subsidization, financing or funding for those who choose abortion or birth control.

I do believe that the Constitution makes no provision for any type of tax payer subsidization financing for funding except for the very basics of running and performing those things that the constitution gives them the responsibility to do!

Spreading freedom and democracy around the world. Don't believe it's there but President Washington advised us to avoid foreign entanglements!

Bailing out banks?? Nope sorry!! Matter of fact I think they wanted the gov't to take the responsibility of printing of money and not have a central bank.

Helping businesses start up and stay operating? Nope!

Medicare Social Security Medicaid Rent Assistance Food stamps WIC Grants for College Grants for Medical Research....
There are so many things that the gov't is doing that the constitution doesn't specifically give them the power or authority to do.
I got a feeling that if we stopped all of this unconstitutional financing that the gov't is doing there wouldn't be that many happy people in the US. Since most are benefitting in one way or another from one or more of these programs.
They just want to pick and chose which one the gov't should drop and which ones should stay!

The ACA just like so many other things the gov't has done was designed just to take taxpayer's money and give it to congress's buddies and lobbyist via their paid representatives in congress (both parties).

Ahhh....the idea of the preventive medical services being expanded to include birth control (which obama did not do!!) and made mandatory for insurance coverage offends some??
LOL!!!! Just how much money is the gov't spending providing our local police units with what would be more correctly termed weapons of war and not weapons to keep the peace? How much has been spent spying on every american citizen?
Just how many rounds of ammo did the post office need?
But it is a good way to grab even more money from the taxpayer to stuff into their friends' pockets!!
Way more money than the little birth control in the ACA does!

In plain simple words the argument you presented just doesn't hold water unless of course you are all for the government dropping ALL of the crap that they are spending money on that does not have the Constitutional Seal of Approval!

and I disagree that birth control isn't a need! Having too many babies too quickly isn't healthy for a women's body!!
I know...if a women doesn't want to have children she shouldn't have sex! But then have a bunch of Ukraine women deny sex to their Russian husbands in protest and look at just how many men get up in arms!! Or how many think that having that marriage certificate means an obligation to have sex!

reply to post by dawnstar


Personal and individual choices, and the costs associated with said personal and individual choices, are not something the American People want to take on as yet another financial or taxing burden. It really is as simple as that.

reply to post by rickynews

Up near Syracuse NY there's an airport that has a whole mess of hotels around it. Someone (more likely a friend of a state congress person made the personal choice that they wanted to build a hotel by that airport even though all the other airports were operating at less than 50% capacity! So with a little help from lobbyists and friends high up this person manage to talk both the local, state and federal gov't into giving them taxpayer funds to build a hotel in an area that was over saturated with hotels. Let me ask you one question.
This guy not only got funding to help construct these hotels but also tax breaks to protect his profits. A perk that many of the other hotels didn't have. So I imagine that because of these perks they could offer cheaper rates! So let's say you land in Syracuse and you are looking for a place to rest your head. Which hotel are you gonna pick the nice new one with the cheaper rates?? What about the other hotel owners in the area that have built their business up just to have it go to pot because someone had a friend in gov't to help them out??

I put into the pot to make this guy's personal choice become a reality and probably also helped put a few equally deserving people out of business!!
By the way sitting down and eating half a cow for supper is a personal choice also and the person's heart attack will be covered!

macman
reply to post by windword

 

Equality for all people.

It doesn't equate to Tax payer funded crap, nor does it suggest in any way that a company should provide X for this person.

So, with groups not being people, you are fine with the tax exempt status removed from Planned Parenthood?

Tax exempt status should be removed from all groups including/especially religious ones. Because you are right the constitution was clear on that.

Really birth control has been considered "preventive care" by the insurance companies and 100% covered since before obamacare! Everyone is quick to mention just how cheap it can be! I really don't understand all the fuss! Is it that you don't like the gov't making mandates like this? Neither do I really but at least I am not gonna be content to hack it off one inch at a time!!
You mention that you don't think the people should be saddled with the cost of people's personal choices. Seems to me that that cost is far less than the cost of the alternative which is to pay out so much more when that personal choice leads to a bouncing baby!
And well you can gripe all you want about the personal choices people make and your desire that they be responsible but because some thought outsourcing our jobs was so good too many of our good paying jobs have flown the coop! And, it's hard to be responsible without a decent paying job to enable you to do be!!

dawnstar
reply to post by rickynews

 

Up near Syracuse NY there's an airport that has a whole mess of hotels around it. Someone (more likely a friend of a state congress person made the personal choice that they wanted to build a hotel by that airport even though all the other airports were operating at less than 50% capacity! So with a little help from lobbyists and friends high up this person manage to talk both the local, state and federal gov't into giving them taxpayer funds to build a hotel in an area that was over saturated with hotels. Let me ask you one question.
This guy not only got funding to help construct these hotels but also tax breaks to protect his profits. A perk that many of the other hotels didn't have. So I imagine that because of these perks they could offer cheaper rates! So let's say you land in Syracuse and you are looking for a place to rest your head. Which hotel are you gonna pick the nice new one with the cheaper rates?? What about the other hotel owners in the area that have built their business up just to have it go to pot because someone had a friend in gov't to help them out??

I put into the pot to make this guy's personal choice become a reality and probably also helped put a few equally deserving people out of business!!
By the way sitting down and eating half a cow for supper is a personal choice also and the person's heart attack will be covered!

Although we are talking apples vs. oranges here, I'll do my best to reply.

In your example, the Senator did not make a "personal or individual choice" (involving himself and only himself),
rather he made a choice based perhaps upon his personal interests, (monetary or otherwise) and the interests of his
constituency. There was also a benefit to society, because most people would most likely agree that a new hotel is good for the airport, regardless of other, older hotels nearby.

An abortion and the practice of birth control, is a private and personal (very individual) decision and choice.
Attempting to rationalize some abstract benefit to society so as to try and convince the rest of society that we, as a whole, will be much better off, so long as we finance or pay for and provide "free" abortions and birth control , which is used by an individual and is an individual and personal choice, is simply ridiculous.

Your next door neighbor, or the couple living above you in an apartment, or the drug dealer on the corner,
or those who work in the prostitution industry, or so called "porn stars" or the married couple in your own family ...
do you really want to, or do you believe that you have both an obligation or a responsibility to pay for, whether directly or indirectly,
their abortions or birth control pills because the Federal Government says that you have to, and that you are Required to ?

Or, would you rather have the right, and have some say in the matter, whether based on yours or the rest of societies values and beliefs, (not the least of which includes Personal Responsibility), whether for religious reasons or otherwise ?

As a whole, the American People like to have their say - and they have clearly expressed their rightful opposition to yet another requirement imposed upon them by the Federal Government - and one in which they clearly reject.
The bottom line is that the American people do not like it when the Federal Government tells them what to do...
We like it when the Federal Government does what We tell them to do. Always has been...Always will be.

reply to post by rickynews


First and foremost!
I am paying for people's birth control now as are you!!!
It's called family planning and medicaid.
People make bad choices in life and sometimes people just have bad luck! And we end up paying.
So well I will tell you this now.
I would rather pay for someone to have birth control than I would pay for the baby for the next 18 or so years!
And this has nothing to do with Obamacare!
"Free Preventive Care" was mandated to the insurance companies during the bush years. Now I am sorry but I find it hard to believe that Hobby Lobby was not providing health insurance to their full time employees before it was mandated by Obamacare. Thus the insurance they were provided covered free birth control!
Can I assume that Hobby Lobby just doesn't want to provide it to those other (probably lesser skilled and more easily replacable part time employees with the same benefit?

Personally I would rather not be paying for anyone to start up a business or their medical care (birth control or other) or thier rent or anything else and well I don't like making the defense contractors rich either! The jobs should be paying a living wage and the people should be working for their own needs and the only ones I feel that should be getting a helping hand are the elderly and the disabled (really disabled not the fakes). I don't like subsidizing business' payrolls by keeping their living breathing employees living and breathing!

dawnstar

I would rather pay for someone to have birth control than I would pay for the baby for the next 18 or so years!

Yeah, we the tax payer shouldn't be footing the bill in either case. It is morally wrong to expect others to fund your behavior and life choices.

reply to post by macman

But we are and more than likely always will be till the gov't has squeezed the middle class into oblivion and only that 2% has the funds to keep the 98% going!
What hobby lobby is doing isn't hurting the very poor, they earn so little that they qualify for the freebies.
Those freebies has produced an inflationary effect on everything from food to housing to childcare..
So no we have women who are higher wage earners opting out of the labor force simply because the childcare is so danged expensive! For some of those families that right there just might be enough to send a struggling family into the qualified for freebies category!
We are talking about health insurance here and what should and should not be included within the policies. Many of these women have had birth control included in their policies for years now! And you would rather that be taken away from them in a time when many families are struggling just to make ends meet.
Oh yes you would have the gov't give SOME businesses an exemption that's right!
Some are priviledge some are not!!
This is why we are in the mess we are in!!! You have to keep making more and more priviledged while at the expense of the not priviledged!

dawnstar
reply to post by macman

 

But we are and more than likely always will be till the gov't has squeezed the middle class into oblivion and only that 2% has the funds to keep the 98% going!
What hobby lobby is doing isn't hurting the very poor, they earn so little that they qualify for the freebies.
Those freebies has produced an inflationary effect on everything from food to housing to childcare..
So no we have women who are higher wage earners opting out of the labor force simply because the childcare is so danged expensive! For some of those families that right there just might be enough to send a struggling family into the qualified for freebies category!
We are talking about health insurance here and what should and should not be included within the policies. Many of these women have had birth control included in their policies for years now! And you would rather that be taken away from them in a time when many families are struggling just to make ends meet.
Oh yes you would have the gov't give SOME businesses an exemption that's right!
Some are priviledge some are not!!
This is why we are in the mess we are in!!! You have to keep making more and more priviledged while at the expense of the not priviledged!

Everyone's looking to qualify for a freebie - or so it seems. Using your logic, perhaps the $'s would be much better spent feeding the poor, and helping the homeless instead of being used for terminating a human baby's life, and providing birth control pills - both of which are not a medical condition, but a personal choice.

dawnstar
But we are and more than likely always will be till the gov't has squeezed the middle class into oblivion and only that 2% has the funds to keep the 98% going!

Well, thank goodness the Govt is here to help us all and will continue to take money.

dawnstar
What hobby lobby is doing isn't hurting the very poor, they earn so little that they qualify for the freebies.

Ahhh, the true colors of what you think. The intent on their actions isn't to hurt anyone. They wish to adhere to what they believe in. Yet, the Govt and the people championing this will push for less freedoms of some and more for others.

dawnstar
Those freebies has produced an inflationary effect on everything from food to housing to childcare..

Yes, same goes for Health Care. Once the Govt gets their hand into things, prices will always increase.

dawnstar
So no we have women who are higher wage earners opting out of the labor force simply because the childcare is so danged expensive! For some of those families that right there just might be enough to send a struggling family into the qualified for freebies category!

And again, the Tax payer is on the hook for he poor life choices of others.

dawnstar
We are talking about health insurance here and what should and should not be included within the policies.

It isn't the Govts business in delegating this. It is an offering during employment, plain and simple. Not something that should be given out to everyone.

dawnstar
Many of these women have had birth control included in their policies for years now! And you would rather that be taken away from them in a time when many families are struggling just to make ends meet.

Wait, so the struggling family is hurt more by a business that does not want to include birth control on their policy?
Are you kidding me.
You really have bought into the BS pitched by the Admin.

dawnstar
Oh yes you would have the gov't give SOME businesses an exemption that's right![/quote
When did I state such a thing.

dawnstar
Some are priviledge some are not!!

All are outlined very specifically in documents.

dawnstar
This is why we are in the mess we are in!!! You have to keep making more and more priviledged while at the expense of the not priviledged!

I have never offered such things. Nor have I stated this is okay.

reply to post by rickynews


Since when does a person paying their insurance premiums = a freebie??
Sure some companies pitch in some of the money if you happen to be one of the fortunate that actually have a job that wishes to do so but I've never had a job where I wasn't paying a significant portion of those premiums!

And to me making an exemption for those companies who have a moral basis for their objections isn't the answer. A good law wouldn't need you to be special rules for different groups of people!
So well to me at least there is just two options.
One which as a women I totally reject. That would be removing the birth control from the policies which would be taking something away from many women! Something that regardless of what you say is part of medical care just as much as the other stupid "preventative medical services" that are in the policies now free of charge! If you don't believe that pregnancy is a medical condition then I suggest that when you or if you are male your wife gets pregnant stay home and have the baby! You family can deliver it for you!
The other would be to leave it in and expect everyone to abide by it!

Of course there is always a third!
Recognize that a law that needs all these exemptions and postponements and the like is simple a law that was not thought out well at all and ditch the whole danged law!
But I kind of place that in the same pile as the idea that the taxpayers aren't gonna end up paying for peoples stupid personal decisions. It just isn't gonna happen anytime soon.
Like I said we ARE paying for the birth control for the poorest members of society through Medicaid and Family planning. The least we can do for those working women would be to keep their birth control coverage in the insurance plans!

Unless of course the objective of all this is that some wish to remove the women from the workforce at those within it that happen to be in the good paying jobs!

Did you know there was talk in NY City awhile back to start a loan program for women who fell into a certain income bracket (you could make over $100,000 and qualify for this loan) to assist with the cost of childcare? When we lived in NY we didn't even make $30,000 and well there was no assistance out there for use! And yet some fools wanted to use some of the taxes we paid to help someone making 3 times more money than us with their childcare! You also realize that for much of the time my kids were younger I wanted to work but well it didn't make any sense financially for me to because I couldn't make enough money to pay for childcare? Do you realize we needed more than one income during that time and I went for some time eating just one meal every other day!
I don't know if this loan program that would be backed by taxpayer's dollars ever went through but ya drop the birth control from the insurance and they might gets lots more applicants for the taxpayer to foot the bill for!

Hobby Lobby's actions aren't directed towards those who are out for freebies they are directed at those who are taxpayers!