Ukraine agrees to host NATO war games

Good replies DarknStormy, especially regarding why Iran is not allowed to do what it wants within its borders..........5 Stars !!!!!

Btw, here is what the Right Wing Fascists have brought to Ukrainian people

en.ria.ru...

After the agreement is officially nullified by Russia, Ukraine will have to pay $485.50 per 1,000 cubic meters of gas. Gazprom charges its European buyers $370 on average.

Before Febuary, they were paying $268 per 1K cubic meters and now nearly double.

Next will be Russia cuts imports from Uks by half to $7B a year. After that, it kicks out all the Uks citizens working in Russia.

All this pain for unending desires to lick the boots of NATO and wash dishes in the EU nations. SHAME !!

Wookiep
reply to post by MrMaybeNot

 

I personally don't see why it has to mean WWIII unless Putin wants to take it that way. Ukraine is allowed to conduct war games within it's borders with whomever it wants, after all Russia has been conducting them with some 40k+ troops right on Ukraines borders for several weeks now. We won't even get into the Crimea discussion.. Tit for tat.

edit on 1-4-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)

Well according to Russian and some Western sources, there is no such troop buildup. So I don't know where these "40,000 fortified heavily armed Russians" statistics keep coming from, aside from the imaginations of Obama and top commanders at NATO HQ.

Xcathdra

romilo
how does theses games been over other countries around the world taken? can russia go do same stuff with any countries it wants etc?

Russia held a joint war game scenario with China.

They are free to run their affairs as they see fit. Russia is reactivating its cold war bases in the arctic and has resumed long range bomber missions (just like the cold war). They also started to move back into the setup with Cuba / some south American countries - port calls, bomber going from Russia to those countries and back.

If Russia can hold maneuvers on the border of Ukraine, then Ukraine can host NATO.

You act like the USA owns all of the Americas and Russia is invading American colonies by having some military alliances down there. Then you say this is justification to host your military right on Russia's border in a hostile gesture.

Back in 2010, San Francisco hosted the Russian cruiser Varyag. By your logic, this would be justification to host NATO wargames inside Russia?

reply to post by Vovin


Reread my post and try again being you completely missed the point.

JWash
This is about US not wanting EU doing business w/ Russia & taking over the Energy market there. This in turn will preserve the American dollar as the world's reserve currency. Well, they're planning that this is how it'll turn out. . .

The value of European-Russian bilateral trade stands at over one trillion dollars annually which is around ten times more than that of the trade between US and Russia, he added.

link

That's exactly right. The key, long-term strategy involved here revolves around a single trade agreement, and I have seen ZERO mention about it on ATS or the media for the most part.

EU - Free Trade Agreement(FTA)from Lisbon to Vladivostok

Putin's baby: a free trade agreement ranging from Europe's west coast to Russia's east. Such an alliance between the EU and Russia would scare the piss out of any American geostrategist.

Xcathdra
reply to post by Vovin

 

Reread my post and try again being you completely missed the point.

Well what is your point?

Vovin

Xcathdra
reply to post by Vovin

 

Reread my post and try again being you completely missed the point.

Well what is your point?

Vovin
You act like the USA owns all of the Americas and Russia is invading American colonies by having some military alliances down there. Then you say this is justification to host your military right on Russia's border in a hostile gesture.

Back in 2010, San Francisco hosted the Russian cruiser Varyag. By your logic, this would be justification to host NATO wargames inside Russia?

No I don't act like the US owns all of the Americas. That information was to demonstrate that Russia was returning to the old Soviet Union game plan. That plan included access to bases in Cuba and South America.

Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around.
Russia has massed 40-80k troops on Ukraine's border - all under the guise of military maneuvers / training.

Like Russia, Ukraine is a sovereign nation and can work with what ever country it wishes to. If Russia does not want NATO on their "doorstep" then maybe Putin should stop acting NTAC 2.0 compliant.

As for the article you linked to I have absolutely no earthly idea what you are trying to demonstrate or how it ties into the conversation.

If Russia was to put military equipment in Cuba, or in a south american country they are free to do so.
If Ukraine wants to join NATO, they are free to do so.

The only aggressive party in all of this was Russia. That aggressiveness is having the complete opposite effect that Putin was hoping for. Instead of pulling countries away from the EU / west / NATO, Putin has pushed them closer to those groups. I truly believe Putin thinks he can "bully" his neighbors to acquiesce. That did not happen...

As I stated before, Putin seems to be buzzed on his Crimea invasion where no shots were fired. Because of that I get the impression that he thinks the west/ NATO / EU can be bowled over and his actions towards other former SSR's supports that position.

What occurred in Ukraine, contrary to popular belief, is everyone else's business. Why? Because the government of Ukraine requested help from other nations as well as receiving support from the UN.

Putin has a losing hand and is attempting to bluff.

God forbid if the west calls his bluff.

Vovin

Wookiep
reply to post by MrMaybeNot

 

edit on 2-4-2014 by Vovin because: (no reason given)

I am curiouser than ever over the picture card you posted above?

Where is that from please?

Very interesting at the least.

reply to post by Vovin

Vovin

Wookiep
reply to post by MrMaybeNot

 

I personally don't see why it has to mean WWIII unless Putin wants to take it that way. Ukraine is allowed to conduct war games within it's borders with whomever it wants, after all Russia has been conducting them with some 40k+ troops right on Ukraines borders for several weeks now. We won't even get into the Crimea discussion.. Tit for tat.

edit on 1-4-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)

Well according to Russian and some Western sources, there is no such troop buildup. So I don't know where these "40,000 fortified heavily armed Russians" statistics keep coming from, aside from the imaginations of Obama and top commanders at NATO HQ.

edit on 2-4-2014 by Vovin because: (no reason given)

This one above, sorry for double post.

reply to post by Xcathdra

Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around.
Russia has massed 40-80k troops on Ukraine's border - all under the guise of military maneuvers / training.

Unless you can prove that, you're lying. Where's the actual evidence?

As for the article you linked to I have absolutely no earthly idea what you are trying to demonstrate or how it ties into the conversation.

I was demonstrating the falsity of your logic. You claimed that Russia flying some planes and sailing some ships around South America means that it is acceptable for NATO to hold provocative war games in a tense geopolitical location right on Russia's border.

So I stated that by your logic, with a Russian navy ship in San Francisco half a decade ago, NATO should have a right to hold wargames inside Russia.

If Russia was to put military equipment in Cuba, or in a south american country they are free to do so.
If Ukraine wants to join NATO, they are free to do so.

Well good for them.

The only aggressive party in all of this was Russia. That aggressiveness is having the complete opposite effect that Putin was hoping for. Instead of pulling countries away from the EU / west / NATO, Putin has pushed them closer to those groups. I truly believe Putin thinks he can "bully" his neighbors to acquiesce. That did not happen...

Or maybe, just maybe, this was all part of the western strategy from the start. Nah, couldn't be that, must be the evil Russians

As I stated before, Putin seems to be buzzed on his Crimea invasion where no shots were fired. Because of that I get the impression that he thinks the west/ NATO / EU can be bowled over and his actions towards other former SSR's supports that position.

NATO existed because of the threat of the Soviet strawman. And you're sitting there proclaiming that the Soviet strawman is still the preeminent threat, 24 years after the Soviet Union collapsed.

What occurred in Ukraine, contrary to popular belief, is everyone else's business. Why? Because the government of Ukraine requested help from other nations as well as receiving support from the UN.

The coup forces requested financial aid from their backers, and the backers are sending in troops to guard their imperial investment.

Putin has a losing hand and is attempting to bluff.

God forbid if the west calls his bluff

Putin most certainly does not have a losing hand, nor is he bluffing. As for your last comment, you're the one who wants the west to fight Russia.

Trollsmustdie

edit on 2-4-2014 by Vovin because: (no reason given)

I am curiouser than ever over the picture card you posted above?

Where is that from please?

Very interesting at the least.

It's from the Illuminati Card Game from the 1980s. It's kinda a retro pop culture view of the conspiracy world, sometimes the cards turn out to have more interesting connections to the real world than the original creators may have intended (or maybe not )

reply to post by Vovin


There is absolutely no point in trying to engage you in conversation. You seem to only see what you want while trying to twist what other people say. You have a very bad habit of assuming things about others without supporting it. You have a very bad habit of calling people names while doing nothing to support your claim / refute the evidence you want to ignore.


I stand by my post and the information contained.
I stand by my comment that you have no idea what you are talking about and that you still do not understand my post.

As for calling me a liar - I noticed you called me that and then demanded I prove it. If I am lying then you should have no issues posting the source to support your false allegation.

Please pay attention and stop derailing the threads.

BTW -
Kerry and Lavrov Meet for Four Hours, Talk about Russian Troops on Ukraine Border - March 30, 2014

The talks came after Russia's annexation of Crimea earlier this month and its subsequent gathering of some 40,000 troops along the eastern border of Ukraine, an act which Kerry said created "a climate of fear and intimidation."

The senator said "any real progress in Ukraine must include pullback by Russian forces," but after speaking "at length" with Lavrov about the situation, conceded that no resolute decision had been made to withdraw troops.

"We have ideas, we have some proposals that both sides made," Kerry said. "In the end obviously the troops are in Russia, they're on Russian soil. The question is not of right or legality, the question is of strategic appropriateness and whether it's right at the time."

The discussion on deployed Russian troops was discussed at the last meeting between Lavrov and Kerry. Russia is not disputing the claims on the number of troops on the border. What they are disputing is the reason they are there. Russia is trying to say they are military maneuvers. One hell of a hastily arranged training assignment. Its almost like Russia had planned this from the start.

50,000 Russian troops on the eastern border of Ukraine.
Russia starts military exercises near Ukraine

Not to mention the Russian forces occupying Crimea, which number between 20-30k. Or the Russian military units deployed to Transnistria inside the sovereign nation of moldova.

Now, is there anything else I can correct you on or is your entire position based on the "liar liar pants on fire" doctrine?

Whats even funnier is the fact Ukraine and Russia are both signatories to the open sky treaty. Russia stated Ukraine could do the over flight, but the Russians stated they choose the time. Interestingly enough Russia violated that agreement by stating it would be on their time table. It does not work that way so once again we have Russia lying.

Xcathdra
reply to post by Vovin

 

There is absolutely no point in trying to engage you in conversation. You seem to only see what you want while trying to twist what other people say. You have a very bad habit of assuming things about others without supporting it. You have a very bad habit of calling people names while doing nothing to support your claim / refute the evidence you want

Likewise on all accounts.

As for calling me a liar - I noticed you called me that and then demanded I prove it. If I am lying then you should have no issues posting the source to support your false allegation

I called you a liar because you come off as a liar. You keep making all kinds of claims, but the sources that you use are also nothing but claims based far away from facts. You have yet to provide any evidence to assert any Russian buildup of troops along the Ukraine border. You have no proof of Russian invasion. It is all warmongering.

And again, you are demanding of me to prove the null hypothesis, when you have no real proof for any alternative. In other words, in your mind, Russia always has tanks ready to roll into Europe so I must prove that they do not.

RT, edited March 30 2014 - West ignores results of int’l missions that found no troop build-up near Ukraine borders – Moscow

Responding to those accusations, Russia’s Foreign Ministry issued a statement, in which it recalled four probes in March by foreign missions in Russia of regions bordering Ukraine.

The ministry said that “even Ukrainian inspectors” agreed that “there were no major military activities being carried out.”

The four international missions included representatives of Latvia, Germany, Switzerland, Finland, Estonia, Belgium, France and Ukraine. None of the missions “found ‘aggressive preparations’ and have not recorded any military activities, aside from the previously declared,” the statement said.

NBC, March 30 2014, Tour of Ukraine-Russia Border Finds No Signs of Military Buildup

Even Western journalists couldn't find this Russian buildup. Here's who is claiming it: Obama, the Ukrainian junta, NATO. So, the key actors who initialized this entire situation to start with.

Where are the pictures of the buildup? NATO was claiming Russian armour, supply lines, trenches... Where? They don't exist just because these perpetual liars say so.

ENOUGH!

The personal back and forth side-tracking of this thread stops NOW. Discuss the topic without discussing each other or accusing anyone of anything. Post removals and/or post bans will follow if it continues.

reply to post by Vovin

Vovin

Trollsmustdie

edit on 2-4-2014 by Vovin because: (no reason given)

I am curiouser than ever over the picture card you posted above?

Where is that from please?

Very interesting at the least.

It's from the Illuminati Card Game from the 1980s. It's kinda a retro pop culture view of the conspiracy world, sometimes the cards turn out to have more interesting connections to the real world than the original creators may have intended (or maybe not

)

edit on 2-4-2014 by Vovin because: (no reason given)

Thank you for the reply.

Exciting, very interesting and amusing also. I google imaged the illuminati cards and yes you are right. Lots of amazing coincidences, Lots.

Disclosure in another form.

Thanks for posting that game card. What a game.

victor7
Good replies DarknStormy, especially regarding why Iran is not allowed to do what it wants within its borders..........5 Stars !!!!!

Btw, here is what the Right Wing Fascists have brought to Ukrainian people

en.ria.ru...

After the agreement is officially nullified by Russia, Ukraine will have to pay $485.50 per 1,000 cubic meters of gas. Gazprom charges its European buyers $370 on average.

Before Febuary, they were paying $268 per 1K cubic meters and now nearly double.

Next will be Russia cuts imports from Uks by half to $7B a year. After that, it kicks out all the Uks citizens working in Russia.

All this pain for unending desires to lick the boots of NATO and wash dishes in the EU nations. SHAME !!

edit on 2-4-2014 by victor7 because: (no reason given)

So why are you and Russia so disgruntled and bitter about kicking out Ukrainian pot washers?

You really think Ukraine give two [snips] about Russian gas ? I think that's there least of there worries right now, Ukraine is close enough to the Middle East to receive liquified gas in large enough supply's, and would only need a minor adjustments to use it's already in place pipelines for distribution, which could be done by next winter, I'm willing to bet it's far cheaper than the Russian gas lol

So instead of hate on the Ukraine people for not wanting to live under your boot anymore and because she is not your slave anymore why don't you let them be? Why are you displaying such hatred towards them? Why you hating them for exercising there rights and freedoms to decide there own future?

It's there choice and in the end after Russia's ties are cut and dependancy cut completely they will be far better of as will the EU, Ukraine are strong people they will adapt improvise and overcome and turn out far better then they ever was under 3rd world Russia and Putlers mafia

Let time be the decider of this, not you and your jealousy

Then let's see how Russia's economy is holding up when she has nobody to sell has to while under harsher sanctions

Thread closed for staff review.