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Are most Masons out of the loop?

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posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 06:00 AM
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Okay, I'm still trying to understand and find out for myself as much about the Masons as I can, so I can make an informed opinion on whether I would consider them "conspiratorial" or whatever. There seem to be some people who believe without question that the Masons are working towards some kind of New World Order or that they control the government or whatever. I suppose these are possibilities, I am reluctant to speculate.

I've been reading some posts by Masons in this forum and I've noticed that they are constantly talking about how honorable and trustworthy Masons are, and how you have to be considered a generally good person in order to join them. I don't doubt this. And I know a number of Masons and they all seem to be very good people.

I also have heard the term "degree" used in reference to certain Masons, referring to their...rank I guess. Here's my question, and although it's directed toward any Masons who may read this, I'm interested in non-Masons thoughts also: Have you Masons ever considered that perhaps there are degrees ABOVE that which you know about, that are, in fact, perpetrators of NWO plans or whatnot? Perhaps the members of the degrees above you know more than they tell you? I have heard that there comes a time once you've been a Mason for long enough where you're faced with some kind of a test, where there's not really a right or wrong answer. But if you choose one, you advance to the "inner loop", and the other choice you advance to the "outer loop". (I'm sure these aren't the official names for these groups.) One of the loops is for "normal" Masons, the other is for those who are privied to information that all these conspiracy theorists think EVERY Mason knows about. Maybe the outer loop is for those of you who don't know what's going on, and the inner loop is for the Masons that are pulling the strings and controlling the world from the shadows. I mean, these are just ideas, but have any of you Masons ever considered this?




posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 06:03 AM
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They are a relic of the past...have you noticed that they like to donate many statues of men who were freemasons in the past to different locations throughout the usa...reminding them of history...because they are just a historical thing without much influence anymore....when they say NWO it doesn't really include them..its a New World Order



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 06:08 AM
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These ideas are born from skepticism, and can be applied to many areas.

Have you seen, experienced any bad thing that has been down to the Freemasons.?

I don't mean you know a Freemason who has committed crime as that is down to the individual not the fraternity.

The use of the theory of an inner circle is, in the end, the only argument people against Freemasonry have. When they run out of ammunition and have had all there arguements answered the only thing they have left is to state a society, within a society. Which in technical terms means all their problems are not with Freemasonry, but with an organisation within it.

Which to me means they are spending all there time argueing with the wrong people if such a thing does exist.

Still, no one has ever been able to prove anything, and the only revelation made are regarding the ritual and modes of recognition.

To me the biggest worry regarding an organisation is the Manchester United Supporters Club. They truly are global, and their members are fanatical, willing to stand up and fight for 15 men they have never met. Now to me that's spooky.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 06:19 AM
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It just seems to me that there should be no reason for any kind of a rank structure unless higher ranking people are given special priveleges. And since there's so much controversy over the Masons, it's an obvious assumption that these special privileges may include something to do with these conspiracies. Yes we could make the crack about splitting the word "assume" up and try and make me look ignorant. But how can you be offended by what you call ignorance on my part when my so-called ignorance is caused by the secrecy of the organization? And please don't try and tell me that it's not secretive, because I'm having SO much trouble finding any real conclusive, accurate information about the Masons, that if it's not "secret" then I must REALLY suck at research. Or maybe it's just the immense amount of disinformation about it all, I don't know. Please take note of my mood right now...


[edit on 26-11-2004 by an3rkist]



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 07:02 AM
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I am sure that no one will try to make you look ingnorant, and it is an obivous assumption in your circumstances, but because there is assumption doesn;t necessarily mean there is truth.

One of the biggest problems with conspiracy theories is some people want it to be true so much, whether it be freemasons, ot the moon is made of cheese, even when there is nothing to go on they still keep arguing the cause.

Read some of the freemasonry threads on here, most are started by people who are not freemasons and liek you want to know.

They are all the same, claiming the same stuff, the questions are always answered, but people make more conspiracy stating that people are lying or are not of a high enough rank. It's a spiral, people don't like to be wrong, I know I don't, but some people take it a little too far



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by Bondi
They are all the same, claiming the same stuff, the questions are always answered, but people make more conspiracy stating that people are lying or are not of a high enough rank. It's a spiral, people don't like to be wrong, I know I don't, but some people take it a little too far


I'm starting to think that you're statement about it being a spiral is more right than I could ever understand. It's starting to feel like no matter how much I think I know, there's always something being hidden from me, (or missed), that debunks or verifies it all. I'm just doing my best to deny ignorance and find out everything I can. I almost had thoughts of giving up on this subject, but then the hardcore conspiracy theorist in me kicked in and I thought, "What if he is some guy sent by the conspirators to discourage me?"
Of course, I doubt you are, Bondi, but I question everything these days. I think you can understand that. I guess I'm just going to have to follow this spiral until it drops me somewhere in the vicinity of the truth. Or my deathbed, whichever comes first.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 07:34 AM
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Trying to get to the truth is something we are all trying to do.

There is a particular trend though, if you come to sites like these as a conspiracy believer, or a debunker, you will leave unchanged.

The same as if you are a conspiracy believer, you will normally only post conspiracy theory, and if you are a debunker, which is normal relating to only one subject, you will only debunk.

Catch 22, Vicious cirlce, what ever you want to call it, there will never be an end to it.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 08:00 AM
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I have heard that there comes a time once you've been a Mason for long enough

OK and I have heard the Pope keeps a Demon in his ring and makes pacts with the Devil. Never assume




that if it's not "secret" then I must REALLY suck at research. Or maybe it's just the immense amount of disinformation about it all,

both are possibilities. however I am more inclined to believe you are just asking the wrong questions of the wrong people. The way you ask can sometimes make a difference. My suggestion would be to go the horses mouth. talk to the Masons in your unit. You will probably find that much of
what you think is secret is not, there is just no reason to talk about it.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by an3rkist
Okay, I'm still trying to understand and find out for myself as much about the Masons as I can, so I can make an informed opinion on whether I would consider them "conspiratorial" or whatever.


Peruse this for all the info you want.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 08:23 AM
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Originally posted by an3rkist

I'm starting to think that you're statement about it being a spiral is more right than I could ever understand. It's starting to feel like no matter how much I think I know, there's always something being hidden from me, (or missed), that debunks or verifies it all. I'm just doing my best to deny ignorance and find out everything I can. I almost had thoughts of giving up on this subject, but then the hardcore conspiracy theorist in me kicked in and I thought, "What if he is some guy sent by the conspirators to discourage me?"
Of course, I doubt you are, Bondi, but I question everything these days. I think you can understand that. I guess I'm just going to have to follow this spiral until it drops me somewhere in the vicinity of the truth. Or my deathbed, whichever comes first.


Answer me this then, if you knew everything , you would be much wiser than me and I have been there for 20 years.

If you knew everything , would you have given masonry a second look.

You can pick up a Bible at any time, that is a Blueprint for a better life, but millions do not even read the first page. Masonry is founded on the same principles. They know that its a good book , they know what its purpose is. Yet they choose to ignore it.

The Bible is freely available everywhere, yet you are not on a forum asking what does this mean , what does that mean. In fine young man , we have your attention. Its the same story in another format.

But then it has something more, it calls you into the story, you become part of the telling. Ever seen the film Fantasia, well not quite the same but you get the idea.

The truth is , every Freemason has a different picture of what masonry is. It is a personal interpretation , which is its beauty. It means different things to different people. Many here focus on a few hanshakes and a couple of words as if that alone can make some kind of Magic transformation.

The transforming into a better man happens after say 3 to 5 years hard work, working and proving yourself over and over again and again. Many quit, most do not, its very difficult, much easier to take the easy road.

As far as the NWO or conspiracy thories are concerned , most of the guys I know could not organise there own lunch hour let alone the World.

Thus endeth todays lecture.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 08:55 AM
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Originally posted by 00PS
They are a relic of the past...have you noticed that they like to donate many statues of men who were freemasons in the past to different locations throughout the usa...reminding them of history...because they are just a historical thing without much influence anymore....when they say NWO it doesn't really include them..its a New World Order


Yes, you're on the right track.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 11:49 AM
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It should be noted that degrees are not rank related.

One Freemason may be in more degrees than another but he may be subordinate to another who is only in a couple of degrees yet has been in them longer.
Rank is only pertinent to a specific degree. There is no rank that traverses them all. For example, the "Grand Master" of the Mark degree does not outrank the "Grand Master" of the Knights Templar (which is a much later degree).

As for donating statues of heroes of the past? Do you think that this is wrong? Do you honestly believe that those who go before should not be acknowledged? Do you reckon that great figures of history should just be ignored? Take a look at the city or town that you live in - are there any statues of historical figures there? If so, is this a conspiracy? Of course not - many cultures, societies, groups and individuals have things that remind them of those who went before and they have done since art was created by mankind.
Do you have any photographs of your grandparents or great grandparents on display in your house? If so, maybe you should get rid of them as they are obviously a negative thing according to your way of thinking. It's a ridiculous argument.
To suggest that Freemasonry is a thing of history because it provides remembrance of past times does not mean that it is either historically confined or conspiratorial. By acknowledging and saluting the good of the past you are hoping that those who come after will recognise the beneficial things that went before and use them for the future. Forgetting where you come from is as dangerous as not knowing where you are going - every journey has to have a starting point. If you wish to forget people like George Washington, Winston Churchill, Mozart and thousands of others who have made massive contributions to mankind then more fool you.

There is a big difference betwen living in the past and remembering and respecting those who took part in it.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 01:08 PM
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The best way to find out about an organization is to join it.


I might be a Mason when I get older. Though I'm really suspicious of it, I think the only way to truly find out, is to experience it.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by an3rkist

I also have heard the term "degree" used in reference to certain Masons, referring to their...rank I guess. Here's my question, and although it's directed toward any Masons who may read this, I'm interested in non-Masons thoughts also: Have you Masons ever considered that perhaps there are degrees ABOVE that which you know about, that are, in fact, perpetrators of NWO plans or whatnot? Perhaps the members of the degrees above you know more than they tell you?


There are many different systems of Masonry that are technically called "Rites". Each Rite has a certain number of degrees that are controlled by its government, and these degrees are listed in the Masonic Constitutions (and, as Leveller mentioned, they have nothing to do with rank).

For example, in the 18th century, there was a popular Masonic Rite in France called the Rite of Perfection, which consisted of 25 degrees. This Rite was brought to America, where a group of York Rite Masons added 8 additional degrees from several other European Rites, ending with a new Rite of 33 degrees that they called "Scottish Rite". When they formed a Supreme Council to govern the new Rite, they drafted a Constitution to proclaim that the Rite would consist of 33 degrees. Because this is included in the Constitution, the Supreme Council cannot legally recognize any degree higher than the 33.

Other Rites have the same laws concerning their own degrees. If the government of a Rite wished to add or subtract the number of degrees in its system, they would first have to amend their Constitutions, which would require the approval of their membership through majority ballot.

But it's also necessary to explain why the higher degrees are irrelevant in regard to rank. A 33 Mason is not "higher up" than a 3 Mason for the following reason:

All Masonic instruction is contained in the first three degrees. Once a man receives the degree of Master Mason (3) he is a full member of the Fraternity, and is eligible to vote on any subject, hold Masonic offices, and introduce motions and Masonic legislation. The First Degree symbolizes youth, the Second Degree symbolizes manhood and intellectual knowledge, and the Third Degree symbolizes old age, death, and eternal life which follows. Thus, the entire cycle of life is captured in the symbolism of the first three degrees.

All of the degrees above the third are simply elaborations on the first three, being especially elaborations on the Second Degree. Early on, it was seen that the intellectual and philosophical teachings of the Second Degree were too generalized; they were by necessity, because it is impossible to communicate the entire bodies of philosophical and scientific knowledge in one ceremony. Therefore, the "higher degrees" were written to explain in more depth the teachings of the original three degrees. This is what we mean we say that the higher degrees cannot make a man more of a Mason than he already is, but they can make him a better Mason.

It's also important to note that these "higher degrees" are available to any Master Mason who wants to receive them. All he has to do is apply for them.


I have heard that there comes a time once you've been a Mason for long enough where you're faced with some kind of a test, where there's not really a right or wrong answer. But if you choose one, you advance to the "inner loop", and the other choice you advance to the "outer loop". (I'm sure these aren't the official names for these groups.) One of the loops is for "normal" Masons, the other is for those who are privied to information that all these conspiracy theorists think EVERY Mason knows about. Maybe the outer loop is for those of you who don't know what's going on, and the inner loop is for the Masons that are pulling the strings and controlling the world from the shadows. I mean, these are just ideas, but have any of you Masons ever considered this?


I'd read all the conspiracy theories about Masonry before I became a Mason, and found most of them sort of silly, but nevertheless entertaining.

In Masonry, the leadership is elected by popular vote. Every member has a voice in who becomes a Masonic official. Every year, Lodges elect new officers. In turn, these officers attend Grand Lodge meetings and elect Grand Officers, where they act as the Lodge's representatives.

"Secrecy" has been extremely exaggerated by opponents of Masonry. The only thing in Masonry that is secret are certain portions of our initiation ceremonies, where we communicate our traditional passwords and handshakes, probably derived from the guild secrets of the middle ages. The actual content of our meetings are not secret; for example, practically all Grand Lodges publish their minutes following their annual sessions, and anyone who's curious can read them. Likewise, individual Lodges keep written minutes. Reading the minutes of a Masonic meeting is no different than reading minutes to any civic organization: the presiding officer opens the Lodge, the chaplain gives an opening prayer, minutes to the last meeting are read for confirmation, bills for the month are read, unfinished business is considered, new business is considered, the presiding officer closes the meeting, the chaplain delivers the closing prayer, and the Brethren retire to the dining room for dinner. This is practically the universal order for a Masonic meeting.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 02:41 PM
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I hear this quite often from possibly misinformed Catholics I know. That it is the masons that are "higher up" that really know what the order is all about. I keep hearing on ATS that nothing is higher than a Master Mason.

What are differences between the Shriners, the 33rd Degree of the Scottish Rite, and Order of Knights Templar of the York Rite?

The "highest" degree in Scottish rite is the 33rd, and "highest" in York Rite are Knights Templar. So where do Shriners fit in here?

What do you gain by being at this degree level in Freemasonry?



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 02:55 PM
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Originally posted by chief_counsellor
What are differences between the Shriners, the 33rd Degree of the Scottish Rite, and Order of Knights Templar of the York Rite?


They are all different organizations. The Shriners are a separate fraternity that men can join after they become Masons.
The 33 of the Scottish Rite is an honorary degree bestowed upon members of that Rite for outstanding service.
The Order of Knights Templar is the highest grade in the York Rite. It's possible to be one of these three things without being the other two, just as it's possible to be all 3. It depends only on which organizations you want to join and participate in.


The "highest" degree in Scottish rite is the 33rd, and "highest" in York Rite are Knights Templar. So where do Shriners fit in here?


The Shriners only have one regular degree, which is called Noble of the Mystic Shrine. This degree is available to any Master Mason in good standing who wants it.
There are also side degrees in the Shrine, which are sometimes called "fun degrees". These include the Hillbilly Degree, Royal Order of Jesters, etc.


What do you gain by being at this degree level in Freemasonry?


Again, that just depends on what you want to join and participate in. Some people get their Scottish Rite degrees, aren't interested in it, and never attend any more Scottish Rite meetings. The same is true of York Rite, Shrine, and everything else. It just depends on the individual.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 05:29 PM
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I am personally 100% confident that I know every degree worked in every Constitution in which I have travelled.

And I impart this truism about Freemasonry: There are more non-Masons out of the loop than there are Masons.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 04:08 PM
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When I was initiated into AMD, I heard that there are more degrees- not higher degrees, not degrees that give one additional power or influence, just "other" degrees.

Masonic degrees aren't "rank" they could more correctly be seen as something masons collect, like someone collecting stamps or coins. It's fun to get more of them.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 05:47 PM
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I am personally 100% confident that I know every degree worked in every Constitution in which I have travelled.


I too know every word of every degree .

My only problem is getting them in the right order.



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