How can the Universe exist without Logos?

reply to post by ImaFungi

The point is; Logic. Everything that exists has an exact cause. Cause and affect.

I agree with your point the everything that exists has a reason for existing, but disagree about the cause and effect part (maybe). Time and space are properties of the universe and need to be explained without time. The structure, say, in a mathematical design has no cause and effect, it just exists in its entirety.

Having said that, and the reason for the "maybe", is that designs such as fractals or many other mathematical constructions use iteration. Iteration requires repeated steps to produce ever more complex results and in a sense is a form of time or at least of sequencing. Nature works to a similar pattern.

reply to post by Buziblu


What the heck did you just say. What are you talking about. Pick one point and say what you mean, you dont believe in cause and effect? How, why, whats an example of a causeless effect? What is this about fractals and time? Time and space are parts of the universe and need to be explained without time...what? Math needs time and energy to exist, Perhaps I will agree that a non specific to this universe or reality (energy/matter) pure mathamatics platonic realm of math exists only in abstract as in before man said 1+1=2 it already was so, or that when he said that before he said or did anything else, 2+1 already = 3 , and so all pure mathematics 'exists' already in infinite never ending computation and completion but other then that, any math humans may realize and write down and compute requires time and energy, well, energy, which is time.

reply to post by ImaFungi


I know what I write might sound crazy, but space and time are parts of the geometry of our universe. I am trying to keep to one point - time - but it is not an easy concept to discuss so everything must be described using analogies.

For example, imagine the Big Bang is the South Pole on a globe, time is North direction, space is East/West. Everything in that universe starts moving (whatever "moving" means) North/future, then later can move East/West. The ultimate question is how the globe exists, what rules govern it and the patterns on its surface. Some of those patterns are our bodies where our brains feel that "now" is constantly moving North. It is impossible to think without using time because that is the limitation of our brains. The universe is the only example of a causeless effect I can think of.

This is all very subjective, it is just how I personally see it and time is the big problem. I am not at all sure about cause and effect - quantum entanglement suggests the future affects the past so where does that leave us? In my uni days doing mathematics years ago (all forgotten now) I felt that the pure mathematics told us something more fundamental about reality than the applied mathematics ever did and so I mention fractals. Can reality stem directly from pure mathematics? Even though fractals are mathematical designs, they must be built up from a starting point, unlike, say, a pentagram or a circle: this might be significant. "+" is as basic as you can get, but + implies change and that to us humans implies time.

"Math needs time and energy to exist" - hmmm, well there's the nub of the matter, that is the question. If the energy sums up to be exactly zero then what?

Just saying how I see it, everyone is entitled to disagree with it.

reply to post by Buziblu


Well the reason math (a symbolic system of organization) is used to catalog and describe and map reality is because reality exists in many parts. Parts like fundamental particles, parts like an atom, parts like a different atom, parts like all the atoms of a star, parts like the sun, parts like a galaxy, parts like a rock, parts like a tree, parts like a person. These parts depending on the amount (quantity) and kind (quality) react with one another in different ways (laws) and the math is used as a symbolic language to capture, the quantity of parts, the quality of parts, the way in which they are moving, speed and direction (relatively), and the event that occurs when they react, the new parts made, the parts that trickle on etc. Reality is 3d physical math. Math used to attempt to complete physics, is 3d reality condensed into an organized system of symbols that are used to attempt to abstractly, thought ultimately accurately, contain/describe reality.

I think the whole 'parts' thing has to do with what is meant by reality being 'discrete'. But the whole 'field' thing ruins me. Its either many (literally, the largest many there can be, if you think there are many grains of sand on earth, think of how many atoms are in 1, then think about the size of earth compared to other planets and you get some of the picture) little tiny parts that connect together like legos and build more macro structures, or, its 1 total, together part, that for some reason is violently shaking and vibrating and the ripples in its oneness create harmonic patterns and relations at every point between its vast dimensional distance/area, or why I said the field theory ruins me, is because modern physics appears to claim that it is both those pictures together!

my HS science teacher told me to prove gravity.

so i threw him out the window!

i don't get no respect.

This sheds some light on matters, which some people here might already be familiar with but I found it enlightening:

Non-existence