Chirstianity, Proof, Exorcisms, and the Religious Right

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posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 12:44 AM
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I have a question, and before you flame it, just read it and be objective please. I am conservative Christian voter, I could not vote for Kerry. Bush is labeled a Christian nut-case by many........The end times will see a rise in demonic activity and throughout the elections I looked for things that I would consider suspect. John Kerry is not a demon and I am not claiming such, but with such a large turnout among Christian voters, I would like opinions on this situation below...


Situation...............

I have heard through a very reliable 2nd hand source about an exorcism that took place in the last decade and it was performed by a non-Catholic pastor. I will not name the denomination (Lutheran) synod except to say Catholic-Lite.

Now this pastor of course was a believer as were the folks around him and the 'victim'. Now this is where it gets scary...

This man said that he know has NO DOUBT about God whatsoever anymore after what he witnessed. Before you say he was biased and dismiss this, the story was told in relation to a question about mental illness with a young adult.

During the process, the 'victim' was speaking languages that there is NO way he could have known and things were being said to the pastors in attendance as if the 'victim' had known them their entire life. They had just met.

Now this 'victim' was no doubt identifying itself as demonic in nature.

So my question is, if one was to witness this happening, would it not convince one that Satan exists and therefore that if Satan exists, then God must exist also?

Think about this one, both believers and non-believers. Muslims also as I would like to know what the Koran says about demonic activities and the reality thereof.



[edit on 26-11-2004 by edsinger]




posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 12:51 AM
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Independent Baptist here.

Satan can pull off a lot of stuff. First off, let me point out that the speaking in tongues was a one-time event. In Acts 2, the apostles were speaking their own language--but people who spoke different languages heard the message in their own language. If you've ever watched Star Trek, think Universal Translator.
It was never gibberish (you listening Pentecostals?).

Satan appears as an angel of light. In fact, he has people believing in reincarnation. Hypnosis is a very dangerous thing (I'm talking about people trying to do past-life regression or whatever). The demons know who lived when, what language they spoke, etc. Hypnosis invites them right in.

I firmly believe that there is a God. And I believe that there is a Satan. One of Satan's greatest tricks is getting people to believe he doesn't exist. That's fine with him. If you're not serving God you're doing Satan's bidding.

I hope I understood your post correctly!



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 12:59 AM
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The Qu'ran is influenced by Judeo-Christian teachings, for it to speak of "demons" --jins-- does not denote to actual demons existing. Now, this non-believer is obviously not aware of the mental disorders fostered by a great number of peoples on this planet, and how they have commonly been mispercieved as "demonic" possesions.

I remember some weeks ago picking up a book on Schizophrenia, and realizing that the many abnormal behaviour associated with "possessed" persons coincided with those of a Schizophrenic. For example:

- Delusions or Hallucinations
- Decreased Speech, Emotion and Movement
- Obsessive Thinking or Compulsive Rituals
- Physical Violence

Just to name a few.

Deep



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 01:01 AM
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Well yes you understood it, but what I am driving at is what would an atheist who always asks for proof do in that situation?

I did not see this happen but I DO believe the source and from what I understand he was very uncomfortable talking about it.

This stuff is real and here in this world right now, Satan of course like to get people to not believe, he wins their soul that way. And the Soul is what makes us VERY different from any OTHER creature.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 01:05 AM
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Originally posted by ZeroDeep
The Qu'ran is influenced by Judeo-Christian teachings, for it to speak of "demons" --jins-- does not denote to actual demons existing.
Deep


AH Deep thanks for replying, the Jinn were not demons per say I don't think, the closest we have in the Bible is Nephilim. (Demon lackey's) per SE.

As for the voices and Schizophrenia, read my post again. I am saying that the 'language' that was spoken was like Aramaic or something. This person had no way to 'know' how to speak it. So he was possessed for sure but by what?



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 01:05 AM
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I bet an atheist would claim it was staged or something. Or it might wake someone up.

Look at the account of Jesus raising Lazarus. The Pharisees saw it--yet still denied it!

I guess you could say they employed a kind of doublethink there, a la 1984.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 01:07 AM
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Wait a second...IF YOU SAW THIS is the question, I can understand that one who didnt 'see' it ala Thomas would ahve trouble. I am wondering what the thoughts are IF they WITNESSED it.

How could it be explained but the Proof of the existance of God?

[edit on 26-11-2004 by edsinger]



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 01:14 AM
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A misconception that wrought dire ramnifications to the Christendom, is this literal belief in the stories of the Bible, and the disregard for the introspective essence it may have hoped to bring to light unto the qualms of society and our place in it.

Satan, as dictated by the Bible, is a driving universal force constantly tuggin on humanity to stray it away from it's original status qou: Gods creatures, created in his perfect image. Satan is the inner realm of our minds that refuses to merge with the God consciousness, and live a Christ like life, if we were to read the Bible in a more symbolic aspect; Satan is not a physical being in some astral plane tugging at our souls and interfering with our daily lives in a vile and rancor manner. A popular dictum once stated by Jesus: "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom," speaks volumes..

This literal belief in Christ and the Bible has created an ignorant peoples bent on doing Gods work and paying homage to a fictational figure Christ, not knowing very well that God is in all of us, and to reach him, is through a Christos like life.

Deep



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 01:22 AM
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I see why you are called Deep.

No the Bible specifically states that Satan is a created being. Christ talked with him when He was tempted.

The stuff in which you speak is of eastern mysticism and gnostic backgrounds.

That is not what I am asking, I am asking if you witnessed a physical impossibility that can not be explained by science in any way and you witnessed a demonic 'episode' would that convince one of God's existence?

There is NO way that the 'victim' could have known the stuff about the pastor nor knew how to speak in languages , not tongues. Then the 'victim' was being controlled by an external source. What was it?


I must get some sleep now.....this has me baffled.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 01:23 AM
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Wait a second...IF YOU SAW THIS is the question, I can understand that one who didnt 'see' it ala Thomas would ahve trouble. I am wondering what the thoughts are IF they WITNESSED it.

How could it be explained but the Proof of the existance of God?



That does not prove the existence of a God; it just proves that this man was in some sort of trance speaking various mysterious tounges, that have not been identified as Aramic, nor any other language, according to your initial statement. Now, unless this pastor spoke Aramic, among the many other mystery tounges, there is not reason to insinuate that the possesed was reciting these languages; he simply could have been mumbling something extremely incoherent, and the Pastor, whom already is one of luadable faith in Christ and God, may have coincided this event with something of the "holy."

The Bible is full of too many external and internal contradictions to be used as a resource of issues regarding Mental Disorders of any type; as we have seen in Salem, quite evidently..

Deep



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 01:30 AM
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Originally posted by edsinger
I have heard through a very reliable 2nd hand source about an exorcism that took place in the last decade and it was performed by a non-Catholic pastor. I will not name the denomination (Lutheran) synod except to say Catholic-Lite.



So let me get this stright... just after you said : "I will not name the denomination " you put "Lutheran" in brackets.

And if you think Lutheran Protestants are "Catholic-lite" well you need to brush up on your European Reformation, as there were actually some theological differences between the two (Luther pinning his 96 points to the church door).



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 01:49 AM
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I grew up in a society loaded with mystic stories, ghost sightings, magic, jinns, devil, exorcism etc, etc.
I've heard strange stories from people who I know very well who are not mentaly ill. There is one thing though that makes me skeptical about all that.

Christians said they saw virgin Mary or felt holy ghost, or been possesed by the devil which was then exorcized with the Bible. Muslims tell a jinn talked with them, hexed ther house which was then clensed with Qur'an verses.
Their experiences are tainted with their belief. I have never heard a Muslim say they saw or heard anything related to christian version of these things or vice versa.
Although they all swear these things really happened, they never had an experience which was outside their set of beliefs.

We all know that these beliefs have been influenced by men throughout the centuries of evolution of religions, things were added, interpretations were changed, and somehow these religious experiences people have always seem to reflect the current view of faith.

So either God, Devil, jinns, angels, adapt to OUR perception of them, or these experiences are not real, no matter how real they seem to us.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 07:30 AM
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If the range of human possibility and experience were a line so long that it would encircle the earth, then we live our lives in a range of +- one inch from the zero point. Anything that strays significantly outside our range of experience is declared by many as mystic, or spiritual. Men that realize this make a succesful life as shamans or witch doctors.

ZeroDeep, would you please cite a reference for the dictum you quote? This is the very first time I have ever seen this passage.


Originally posted by ZeroDeep

A popular dictum once stated by Jesus: "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom," speaks volumes..

Deep



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 09:56 AM
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"End times"

Sorry Ed. There is only one end time, your own.

Maybe the planet's own in about 4 and a bit billion years, too.

This 'end time' stuff is so rife with charlatans and exploitation.

Let's assume for a moment that the Bible is absolutely complete and correct

How come the Apostles (the people there and who talked day to day with Jesus) were all convinced the 2nd coming was to be within their life-times and said so?

I don't buy it myself.
IMHO it's a metaphor which has been exploited by literalists for centuries.....once again attempting to turn a faith based belief system into one of actuality and fact.
You just can't do that IMO.

.....as many many Christians would agree.

I also do not see how those who go for the fundamentalist, literal 'version' of 'Christianity' can claim literal fact for the bits they think accord with their own ideas and yet ignore the contradictory bits which don't (without pulling the usual 'oh you just don't understand it properly because you aren't 'saved' or whatever).



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 10:47 AM
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I have another thing to add, which is similar to what is said above. Although I don't buy the story about the possesion I will ask the following.

I am asking this question and making these statements as if the possesion was true.

Did the "possesed" person say specifically that he was Satan?? If not, then he could've been possesed by any sorts of demons or spirits (if they are true of course). Of course the pastor may have used the name "Satan" or "devil" to cast out the spirit that was posessing the person. But just the calling out might've gotten the spirit out. So saying that it was Satan possesing the "victim" is a leap of faith.

Furthermore saying that because Satan exists, God exists is also a leap of faith IMO. It's not a logical conclusion. That's like saying apples exist, so therefore oranges must exist. I say this even though I believe in god (in my own way).



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by Corinthas

So let me get this stright... just after you said : "I will not name the denomination " you put "Lutheran" in brackets.

And if you think Lutheran Protestants are "Catholic-lite" well you need to brush up on your European Reformation, as there were actually some theological differences between the two (Luther pinning his 96 points to the church door).



I will not identify which Lutheran synod it was. There are big differences between Lutherans these days, some are falling away from the Book Concord. I am very familiar with the Reformation as I am Lutheran.

Big differences between Catholics and Lutherans , very true. But for one to 'attend' another's service, they are VERY similar. It is mainly the Mary thing that separates them along with the communion rites.






Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
"End times"
Sorry Ed. There is only one end time, your own.
Maybe the planet's own in about 4 and a bit billion years, too.
This 'end time' stuff is so rife with charlatans and exploitation.
Let's assume for a moment that the Bible is absolutely complete and correct



Look this is not an argument about whether the end times are coming. I do believe that the apostles thought It was 'them' just as every generation has since. But things are a bit different now, and the foretold events are not history as of yet. If the Prophet Isiah can prophesy Christ, then I would think that the Spirit of God can foretell just what He needs us to know, but that is not the point of this thread.





Originally posted by TheBandit795
I have another thing to add, which is similar to what is said above. Although I don't buy the story about the possesion I will ask the following.
I am asking this question and making these statements as if the possesion was true.
Did the "possesed" person say specifically that he was Satan?? If not, then he could've been possesed by any sorts of demons or spirits (if they are true of course). Of course the pastor may have used the name "Satan" or "devil" to cast out the spirit that was posessing the person. But just the calling out might've gotten the spirit out. So saying that it was Satan possesing the "victim" is a leap of faith.
Furthermore saying that because Satan exists, God exists is also a leap of faith IMO. It's not a logical conclusion. That's like saying apples exist, so therefore oranges must exist. I say this even though I believe in god (in my own way).


(1) I Do not know what the details were 'beforehand' but the Church had deemed that an exorcism was necessary. Lutherans are not known to do this, and that in itself blew my mind.

(2)No as far as I understood it, it was not Satan himself but a lackey, mini-demon. The pastor did recognize the language though (I just thought Aramaic). I do not know the language in which 'it' spoke. The point is there was NO way this individual could have spoken let alone read this language and NO way this person could have know the things about the pastor that he was speaking of. Private things I guess but I have no details.

(3) Well I disagree, I guess you could use the analogy of people getting religious in the foxhole type thing.

If Satan does exist, then therefore God must also exist as God created Satan, the child of light, the most beautiful creature even made, but made nonetheless.

If this man was possessed or whatever term you call it, and was doing the "impossible", then it would make the case of the paranormal, and defy explanation.

Keep in mind, the whole reason this came up was the subject of mental illness. We recognize that what we refer to today as "mental case" was in older times possession. But that does not change the fact that 'impossible' things happen and need explanation.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 12:12 PM
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It is not the "possesion" that would be cause to believe in God. It is the prayer that "removed the demon" that would be cause to believe in God.

If an athiest believed the "possesion" was the result of a hoax, nothing that occurs would change his beleifs.

If an atheist believed the "possesion" was the result of a chemical imbalance, he would have to examine why prayer "removed the demon" or change his mind about the nature of the "possesion" and call it a hoax.

If the athiest was convinced the "possesion" was a chemical imbalance and could not be a hoax, the removal of the chemical imbalance through prayer would have a lasting impact on his beliefs.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by Raphael_UO
It is not the "possesion" that would be cause to believe in God. It is the prayer that "removed the demon" that would be cause to believe in God.



Very good points, and by the way I checked and it was Aramaic that the young man spoke......how can this be explained at all?



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 10:05 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
Very good points, and by the way I checked and it was Aramaic that the young man spoke......how can this be explained at all?


If you want a possible explanation, I would say that the brain remembers more than we can actively recall. While in a state of mental derangment, he could be enacting memories that were scenes from a movie. Or perhaps several movies combined to form one coherant event.

Did it just "sound like" aramaic or is there a translation of what was said?



[Edited on 26-11-2004 by Raphael_UO]



posted on Nov, 27 2004 @ 12:08 AM
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Originally posted by Raphael_UO
Did it just "sound like" aramaic or is there a translation of what was said?
[Edited on 26-11-2004 by Raphael_UO]


My understanding was that it was translated by at least one of the pastors there, and it was conversational in nature not a movie scene or something. Scientifically it has no explanation at all IMHO.





 
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