How to Prove the Paranormal: Scientists Discuss

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posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 01:05 AM
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Maybe it's just me, but I don't want science anywhere near my consciousness. It perverts everything it touches. Look at what our exalted scientists have done to our planet. I can't get clean water without drilling my own well. Rain water on the west coast isn't any good anymore (thanks, nuclear physicists). Gulf of Mexico is fried and China is a stinking wasteland of "developing industrialism".

All in the name of scientific progress...

No, I'm pretty sure the further scientists stay away from the so-called "paranormal" the better off we'll all be. I don't want my soul poisoned any more than it already is, thank you very much.




posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 12:08 PM
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I'm always excited to see new strides taken in proper research into that ethereal field of reality some of us (present company included obviously) know exists.

I think a lot of the increased acceptance into paranormal fields of study have been due to a combination of increased public acceptance, and progress in other hypothetical fields of study. Public acceptance has increased greatly and, love em or hate em, a lot of that has been due to the popularity of ghost hunting shows and other paranormal prime-time tv shows. It's taken it from a bit of a cult, backdoors area to more mainstream; again love it or hate it.

The advances in other fields, however, have got to be helping. We've made pretty big advances into our understanding of microphysics as well as providing evidence of previously intangible things, like the Higgs-Boson or parallel universes. Some of these things were pretty fringe a few decades ago too, so perhaps they have acted as a bit of an incentive to discover "new" fields.

On the other hand I wonder how some folks, especially the ones who claim deep spiritual and extra-sensory abilities, will react as progress is made in explaining some of this phenomena. I mean, how often have you heard people say (even in this forum) "Well, Science just can't explain this kind of thing" or "These abilities are beyond science, they are special" etc etc. I think, personally, a lot of that has been a cultivated defensive attitude towards the mainstream scientific dismissal to their claimed abilities. However there are some, including a few I know personally, who honestly believe that it's truly some heightened, special magical thing that only those gifted with can understand, ergo science will never be able to prove it. I think that, were they asked, they'd try to be detrimental to advancing these kinds of studies.

I wish I were more sensitive, or whatever it is. I've seen and experienced a lot of things; but I'd love to have the kind of higher level awareness some claim - if only to experience it for myself lol.



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 12:15 PM
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NthOther
Maybe it's just me, but I don't want science anywhere near my consciousness. It perverts everything it touches. Look at what our exalted scientists have done to our planet. I can't get clean water without drilling my own well. Rain water on the west coast isn't any good anymore (thanks, nuclear physicists). Gulf of Mexico is fried and China is a stinking wasteland of "developing industrialism".

All in the name of scientific progress...

No, I'm pretty sure the further scientists stay away from the so-called "paranormal" the better off we'll all be. I don't want my soul poisoned any more than it already is, thank you very much.



Don't confuse science with industrialism. Science, and its discoveries, are merely a tool. Human hands wield the final implementation. The Incas, for example, were a society we would consider very spiritual by today's standards; yet they learned how to cultivate the potato from the deadly nightshade family. I dare you to tell me you don't enjoy potatoes in some form.

Likewise all those vaccines we have. Unless you're an anti-vaxxer. Lots of diseases we wiped out. That new fangled world wide web you're using...etc. Oh, and rain water has generally been hit and miss throughout history. There are a lot of waterborne diseases that can be carried in it, and before nuclear we had all the coal fire plants too - look at Europe for their experiences with acid rain.

I'm not saying I don't agree that we've applied much of what we've learned to our detriment, just that we've also applied it to much good. Ultimately it's pretty neutral stuff until people decide how to apply it.



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 10:53 PM
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UnmitigatedDisaster

Don't confuse science with industrialism. Science, and its discoveries, are merely a tool. Human hands wield the final implementation. The Incas, for example, were a society we would consider very spiritual by today's standards; yet they learned how to cultivate the potato from the deadly nightshade family. I dare you to tell me you don't enjoy potatoes in some form.

Likewise all those vaccines we have. Unless you're an anti-vaxxer. Lots of diseases we wiped out. That new fangled world wide web you're using...etc. Oh, and rain water has generally been hit and miss throughout history. There are a lot of waterborne diseases that can be carried in it, and before nuclear we had all the coal fire plants too - look at Europe for their experiences with acid rain.

I'm not saying I don't agree that we've applied much of what we've learned to our detriment, just that we've also applied it to much good. Ultimately it's pretty neutral stuff until people decide how to apply it.

Good points, however I don't believe that industry/technology is neutral until applied. We have to consider the processes by which these things are produced. This is probably for another thread, but vaccines don't grow on trees. There is a massive amount of industrial infrastructure necessary to produce them. That infrastructure requires that we consume an enormous amount of resources, damaging our environment in the process. You also have to coerce people into digging the mines, etc. through social and economic manipulation. "Scientific progress" is the (weak) justification for all of this nonsense.

How many have died simply in the production driven by science? Is there a trade off?

Sure, I'd like to be able to unplug from it all completely (and not be a hypocrite), but I'm a human being and I need other human beings. Unfortunately, the only ones I know are part of this society thing that I have to be a part of too unless I want to live as a forest hermit for the rest of my life. And I'd get thrown in jail eventually for that. So I use this computer thing. I pretty much have to have one to function in this society anyway, so why not have a little fun on the interwebs?



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 11:07 PM
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about dam time. That "mainstream" science is starting to take this seriously.



posted on Apr, 3 2014 @ 11:20 AM
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reply to post by NthOther
 


Also very valid points - the cost of scientific process should give pause. Though, at least in the last decade or so, we've been getting a lot better about the footprint we leave in our endeavours.

So here's another question for everyone, one that I've wondered about myself:

If scientists can definitely prove, or at least close to, the existence of what we consider paranormal: would it lessen the 'magic' of it for you? Many of the people here feel their experiences are special, that those of us who've had multiple experiences are special in some way, attuned to the otherworldly maybe. Many of you claim to have heightened awareness and/or spiritual powers and the like.* So if science eventually says "Yes, these things exist, here's what causes it. Yes, these abilities exist, this is what triggers them," would it be less "special" to you?

If they said "Yeah, these heightened awareness type powers are caused by 'x,y,z' and we can now give them to anyone" would you feel cheated out of your gift? Would ghost hunting lose its appeal as we learn whatever truth there may be?

I'm kind of two minds on it. One one hand, I want to know what my experiences are. I want a logical breakdown of their existence. A huge part of my fascination is because I've had these science-defying experiences, and I want to analyze them.

On the other hand, there is a bit of romance or mysticism with them. There is a bit of enjoyment from the knowledge that not everyone is lucky (if that's the right word) to experience them.

What about you all?

*I say claim in no way to dismiss those of you that have, or believe to have, such abilities. I just haven't had any experience of my own with them, and I don't know anyone local to me who can give me enough 'proof' to substantiate them. That much said I don't really doubt their existence, because the mind is amazing; and if they ever do make a pill to gain them - I'm totally onboard.



posted on Apr, 3 2014 @ 11:37 AM
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reply to post by UnmitigatedDisaster
 



If scientists can definitely prove, or at least close to, the existence of what we consider paranormal

Again, they can't do that, unless the paranormal has a natural cause. All that science can do with something supernatural is say "we don't know how it is done" (and the skeptic will add "yet".)

There is another thread on this subject, and the OP brings up the Randi Prize. The thing that most people don't understand is that the premise of that prize is to never give it away -- if you read the rules, the JREF has stacked the deck in such a way that they can back out of ever giving it.

Why? Because the purpose of the prize is not to validate supernatural activity, it is to debunk it, both scientifically, in the poor sods who actually bring their water witching rods or ESP claims to the JREF, and unscientifically for all skeptics, who can debunk any supernatural claim by simply stating that if it was real, why hasn't the proponent put it in for the prize and take home a million dollars.

That's what the prize is for.

People need to stop looking to science and skeptics for validation of supernatural beliefs or the paranormal, because neither is interested in doing that.

edit on 3-4-2014 by adjensen because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2014 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


The argument works both ways with me. Since I approach the issue from a more scientific angle - to me it's more likely that it would be explained and quantified rather than verified as real; however in either case it prompts a reaction. Since, as you said, the believer's reaction to any quantification would be to dismiss it as being undiscovered "yet" that makes the question moot.

So for the sake of the question it was asked as "what if it was proven true."



posted on Apr, 3 2014 @ 12:07 PM
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reply to post by UnmitigatedDisaster
 



So for the sake of the question it was asked as "what if it was proven true."

Scientifically, it can't be proven to be true, it can only "fail to be proven false," which is a pretty wishy-washy evaluation. But I'm okay with that -- I am a theistic skeptic, in that I believe in God, but don't believe in any other paranormal phenomenon, and I have no issue with "science cannot prove that God exists, neither can it prove that God does not exist."

If someone were to, say, conclusively demonstrate ESP, it wouldn't really change my worldview, apart from saying "okay, that's something about the world that I didn't know before."



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 02:48 AM
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This is great stuff. I have long wondered why someone hadn't done the OBE test in such a way. I just mentioned in another thread on paranormal activity that there have been many skeptical scientists who have been convinced of the existence of such activity after having the chance to visit a haunted location, but they have no recourse for convincing the rest of the scientific community, because the science suggests that if something cannot be tested, it must not be real. How else can they explain their dismissal of such things as paranormal activity?

If they claimed it "could" be real, that is one thing...but many say these things "aren't" real. Huge difference in meaning. I am relieved to see that there are scientists willing to address these issues, because they need to be addressed. Anyone who says such things are all in the mind clearly is not familiar with all the case evidence available. There are definitve cases that suggest what is occurring is EXTERNALLY, not internally generated. And I do not mean that some mundane external explanation is causing a change in their brain chemistry, thus making them hallucinate or something. No, I am saying that these people are simply observing something that is already present, instead of some outside influence producing a certain affect on them, making them "think" they see or hear something.

I've said it before, it wouldn't take long to convince scientists if one could take them in small groups to certain locations around the world. Let them experience some of what goes on, and let them realize, since they're there, no trickery is going on. They will pee themselves and then leave that place a believer. I saw a full body apparition when I was a child, and have had a couple more experiences. Once I was in a location that had long been claimed to be haunted, and I hear someone walking in heavy boots in the small room above me, sort of like an attic space in a theater...It walked to the opening in the roof and stopped, as if looking down. I look up and no one is there. And no one is up there when I look either. No other way out except that hole, and no place to hide. No other rooms above the ground floor. And many similar things have happened there as well, some much scarier.

My uncle used to live in a house that was haunted. Crazy stuff happened all the time. Radios and tv's go on and off by themselves, a couple of times even while not plugged in. Full bodied apparitions seen a couple of times. Multiple people experiencing something jumping on their chests and holding them down right when they lay down to go to sleep. Lights turning on and off. Heavy book case doors swining open and shut, and other crazy stuff like that. There just is not an explanation that is conventional. Sure, if something like that happened once or twice, maybe it could be written off. That is usually what I tell people who ask if they have a ghost, yet have only had one or two strange things happen. It's likely coincidental. But when crazy stuff happens all the time, as well as seeing people who are not really there...one starts to realize these things do exist.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 02:02 PM
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Once I loved a woman from a powerful family. She also did but I was just looking for a good moment to announce wedding ceremony.
Surprisengly she started to think that I am about to change my mind so she applied to some magic tips.
It gave just a reverse effect. Firstly I started to hate her and lately got mad and lost my family home and business for her.
But she already get married to someone else....
Then I tried to talk more and more untill parents started legal procedures.
I started to look for revenge and found an ancient sript probably egeption. in insruction i was supposed to spell some
words 4444 times for 7 night.
After I did it a strange ancient monster started to follow me at nights.
it was really dirty creation...
Girl get divorced and lost her abiliy to have children...
After that I know for sure there are a lot of things we dont know. and better to not know them at all.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 04:20 PM
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reply to post by laless1980
 


Welcome to ATS, Laless1980.

Never a good idea to work with "spells". They can backfire so easily, as you have learned... the hard way.





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