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Worshipping Satan?

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posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 07:26 PM
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reply to post by Jesuslives4u
 


From my vantage point, this thread is hilarious. The obviously Christian poster Jesuslives4u clearly takes Satan and all the myth-drama that goes with it very seriously. It needs no argument or defence; his position is settled. The world really IS the battleground of a cosmic evil against a cosmic good. But why - if I were someone who thought this way - oh why (I wouldn't be able not to ask this question) does this battle take place?

The concept of God, if it doesn't include everything, is a ridiculous way to think. Were talking about an "ultimate principle". An ultimate principle, by definition, covers everything. Nothing lies outside it.

Thus, to any thinking person who doesn't hold to a childish idea of God, God is a reality. THE reality. The field and everything that happens within it. He is context and particle. I, It, He, She etc. Nothing is not God, since everything, the mystery that is existence, the facticity of this reality which spawns the thought "why" and "what" this world we live in is, happens within a fundamental relational unity. God is by definition, a paradox. Known to the mind not by inference or logic, but by feeling and intuition.

If your way of thinking isn't along these lines ^^^^ than your idea of God, although well intentioned on a purely affective-emotional level, is absurdly ridiculous to someone with a awakened cognitive mind who contemplates this issue in terms of philosophy and spirituality and considers all that myth talk as allegory - very important and eminently true as a metaphor - but not the "thing itself" which is being talked about.

We think in this way just as much we base our religious texts on rich allegory. Metaphor is the human way of doing things. The basic reality of the human condition is relational and social, so it's not at all surprising that we nest our deepest truths in narratives.
edit on 1-4-2014 by Astrocyte because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 07:45 PM
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arpgme
reply to post by peter vlar
 



peter vlar
I don't feel that your analogy of Catholics/Christians is really accurate. The number of Theistic Satanists world wide is rather small so comparing them to the largest and oldest Christian faith is a little backwards, in my opinion. A more apt analogy would be to say that if all Catholics are Christians then Theistic Satanists are the equivalent the Branch Davidians in terms of size and actual influence on the grand chess board.


Where did you get the numbers to compare the amount of Theistic Satanists vs Atheistic Satanists?


peter vlar
The branch Davidians were and some still are, certainly real, but not remotely representative of Christianity as a whole. They were a minor fringe cult with similarities to and drew from mainstream Christianity while taking a few dark twists and turns along the way.


Atheistic Satanism is not "mainstream Satanism", most people know Satanism as worship of The Devil, and Traditional Satanism where Satan is seen as an actual deity, is older than Atheistic Laveyan Satanism:



The Marquis de Sade (18th century, France), described by Iwan Bloch as being a fanatic Satanist.[22] His works graphically described blasphemy against the Catholic Church, such as an orgy resembling a Black Mass conducted by Pope Pius VI in the Vatican (in his novel Juliette).




In 1865, the anti-Vatican Italian poet Giosuè Carducci, published his poem Inno a Satana ("Hymn to Satan"), praising Satan as the god of reason and expressing religious hatred towards Christianity. - Link




I don't have the numbers. I was making that assessment from personal experience, hence the disclaimer of 'in my opinion'. I know a lot of atheistic/agnostic satanists. The only people I've ever known in those circles or otherwise who claimed to be the media stereotype of full on goat headed, blood drinking, midnight black mass in a cemetery, satan worshipers sacrificing stray cats to their dark lord have been a bunch of drunk fake Ass teenagers who found a copy of the necronimicon in their brothers closet.

Just because most people know of satanism in one light doesn't make it the truth let alone mainstream. It means people are willfully ignorant because honestly, how many people actually care enough to Really look into what its all about especially when it conflicts with their own belief and values system? LaVeyen Stanism is, in the context of Satan worshipers, the mainstream adaptation of the philosophy. It has the broadest audience and is the most organized which is why I used the analogy of Catholicism and something more fringe, small and unorganized in comparison to the larger older predominant
faith, like the Branch Davidians.

I just don't see how the Marquise de Sade can be tied to Satanism ogre than tangentially. He wrote a novel, a work of fiction. He wasn't performing black masses. Most analysis of his anticatholic works seem to find a correlation to his time at a Jesuit school as a youth and his later stances against the church.

A far as theistic satanism being older, it's kind of hard to say to what extent. I can go through history books and point to hordes of individuals who are alleged and accused satanists from the Knights Templar to the citizens of Salem Massachusetts and back to the European Inquisitions that raged over the entire continent and helped lead to the reformation.
Again, this is just my opinion because I don't have all the info in front of me but, I've found that nearly everyone in history who has been accused of being a satan worshiper was done so because they held a view that was against or defied the wishes of the Church of Rome and based on tortured confessions because of willful acts of the church as opposed to any real evidence against them. Somebody puts me on the rack and adds on 200 lbs of rocks, you can bet I'm sending them to your door with the excuse that you taught me the dark rituals in the first place. I was hoping we as a people had moved a little beyond our pedestrian anachronistic beginnings and embraced reason and open mindedness.

Besides, cassette tapes are older than Cd's which are older than iPods but I wouldn't argue that tape decks are mainstream and standard in cars anymore.



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 07:57 PM
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reply to post by DeadSeraph
 


You have some valid points but I don't want to derail this thread much further with the devolvement into black metal except to say I'm watching the video and I stand by my original statement that these bands are merely appropriating imagery because the fans want to see the most evil looking show they can. These bands are far more influenced by Tolkien than they are LaVey or the devil himself. It's a vast minority that actually participates in ritualistic ceremonies for the purpose of conjuring satan or demons etc... I've worked for some of these bands on the rare occasions they come to the US and without the corpse paint they're a bunch of dorks. I'm happy to continue the conversation/ debate with you in either a U2U or perhaps a new thread so we dont get too far off the OP's topic and have the wrath of moderators coming down on us!



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by Astrocyte
 


It's interesting to note that if any of these extreme evangelicals who are fried of the bogey man actually read the entire bible they might get a very different picture of Stan himself. Just read Job for example, god and satan are hanging out having a conversation about Job with god bragging about how well he's(job) doing because of his faith. It isn't until god gives ha-satan permission to test and torment job that he can do so. It becomes apparent that satan can't operate without gods cooperation if not his outright permission despite the earth supposedly belonging to satan and the 1/3 of angels that followed him.



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 08:21 PM
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reply to post by peter vlar
 


The book of Job - Iyyov - was probably written as a way to make sense of suffering. Iyyov (Job in Hebrew) actually means "to wail".

When things happen to you, and you want to maintain and hold on to your sense of a greater meaning, since the greatest meaning allows you to maintain your sanity and your belief in the ontological good. And so, eventually, we are led by life to the conclusion that a) suffering happens b) it is largely unpredictable c) it happens to everyone regardless of what we believe we know about the quality of the person.....and so d) God must allow these evils to happen to help us grow spiritually.

The good that Job has at the end is manifold times more than what he had at the beginning, indicating that the material things he lost which caused him woe, allowed him to gain "spiritual treasures", i.e a new enlightened sense of awareness and state of being, that are fundamentally more valuable.

Besides the above, fundamentally, good does not exist without it's opposite. In fact, no quality can exist without a contrasting quality to give it meaning. Everything happens within a context - and a context is usually made up of polar opposites.
edit on 1-4-2014 by Astrocyte because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 08:28 PM
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Holding up the way entertainers act and perform on stage as reality is akin to believing Brad Dourif is really a voodoo practicing, doll possessing serial killer; Or Robert Englund is really a disfigured, kiddie raping, serial killer that can invade your dreams.....

I have partied with lots of local black metal band members, never met a single one that was really how they were when they are on stage entertaining. Off stage they are actually just regular people.....



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 08:36 PM
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TKDRL
Holding up the way entertainers act and perform on stage as reality is akin to believing Brad Dourif is really a voodoo practicing, doll possessing serial killer; Or Robert Englund is really a disfigured, kiddie raping, serial killer that can invade your dreams.....

I have partied with lots of local black metal band members, never met a single one that was really how they were when they are on stage entertaining. Off stage they are actually just regular people.....


What does that have to do with anything? What do you think a theistic satanist acts like in their day to day lives? Should they appear as raving lunatics, foaming at the mouth and speaking backwards latin while levitating around their local walmart? Of course these guys behave like normal people in social situations. They're people. That doesn't change the fact that some people worship/venerate satan as a real being in the same sense that others worship/venerate God. For the more depraved folks that actually take it a step further and engage in blood drinking rituals or other things most of us would consider unsavory, I doubt they'd be doing it backstage after a show while they're swigging a few beers with their pals. I don't pray to God when I'm partying with my buddies either.
edit on 1-4-2014 by DeadSeraph because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 08:40 PM
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reply to post by DeadSeraph
 

Crazy christians sure don't act like normal people, can't go three sentances without mentioning the bible or jesus. Why wouldn't crazy satan worshippers be the same way?



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 08:42 PM
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reply to post by TKDRL
 


exactly. There's a black metal band that's opened for my band a few times and the singer works at the dealership I used to get my car fixed at. Without the corpse paint on you'd have no clue that he pretended to impale animals on upside down crucifixes on stage. It's almost always a persona and an act. I've written songs about Chtulu but I sure as hell don't worship him or any other demons written about by Lovecraft. I just like the literature and the way Lovecraft put together the entire mythos but when the song starts and people hear someone screaming about Chtulu rising all hell breaks loose which as a performer is my bread and butter. It's all about what get your audience off while maintaining artistic integrity.



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 08:47 PM
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TKDRL
reply to post by DeadSeraph
 

Crazy christians sure don't act like normal people, can't go three sentances without mentioning the bible or jesus. Why wouldn't crazy satan worshippers be the same way?


Really? Where did I mention the bible or Jesus in that last post? Pretty sure it's more than 3 sentences. Care to address the content of my post instead of presenting a red herring? Are you in agreement that theistic satanists exist or are you disputing that fact?
edit on 1-4-2014 by DeadSeraph because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 08:55 PM
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reply to post by DeadSeraph
 


I wasn't calling you a crazy christian..... I am sure you have met the type I am talking about. They are a fringe minority, same as people that actually bow to satan as a god..... Holding up all the bands playing a role on stage, to try and make the case that theistic satanism is somehow widespread is dumb is the point. They are performing on a stage, putting on a show.



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 09:04 PM
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DeadSeraph

What does that have to do with anything? What do you think a theistic satanist acts like in their day to day lives? Should they appear as raving lunatics, foaming at the mouth and speaking backwards latin while levitating around their local walmart? Of course these guys behave like normal people in social situations. They're people. That doesn't change the fact that some people worship/venerate satan as a real being in the same sense that others worship/venerate God.


I don't think anyone disputes that some individuals praise Satan as a venerate deity, the only dispute is in how wide ranging or prolific their numbers are. Some people in this thread seem to think they're hiding behind every street corner just waiting for the chance to tempt them, their children or steal their pets for sacrifice. Yes, that's an exaggeration but still cuts to the crux of the point. As for how people act in social or private settings, I'm the only person in this thread who would admit to being a LaVeyan Satanist, this means I have MANY friends with likewise inclinations and proclivities. None of us shy away from discussing it whether we're watching a football game or partying after a show at the bar. There are a couple of more obnoxious ones who don't hold their liquor as well and end up in the middle of a drunken diatribe sounding as if they intend to remove your girlfriends head and use it for a urinal before they boil it and mount it on their alter. that's just one example. It doesn't mean he's really going to do it. He's so caught up in who he thinks he is on stage and trying to chase that rush and high frpom being up there that the more extreme his behavior is in public the more "authentic" he appears. When he's sober he babysits my kids and sometimes stays at my home and watches my dogs when I go out of town, because I know the difference betsween stage antics and persona versus who he really is.


For the more depraved folks that actually take it a step further and engage in blood drinking rituals or other things most of us would consider unsavory, I doubt they'd be doing it backstage after a show while they're swigging a few beers with their pals. I don't pray to God when I'm partying with my buddies either.
edit on 1-4-2014 by DeadSeraph because: (no reason given)


I'm just playing devils advocate here, pun mostly unintentional I swear lol, but The Italian 'Beasts of Satan' case was pretty much based on what you think doesn't occur. Some alleged Satanists picked up their friends, took them to a party, got them obliterated on multiple substances and perpetuated some heinous crimes against them before burying them and supposedly dancing on their grave. The following panic in Italy was reminiscent of the 1980's satanic panic in the US only a little more extreme in response with the Vatican sitting on their door step.



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 09:27 PM
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TKDRL
reply to post by DeadSeraph
 


I wasn't calling you a crazy christian..... I am sure you have met the type I am talking about. They are a fringe minority, same as people that actually bow to satan as a god..... Holding up all the bands playing a role on stage, to try and make the case that theistic satanism is somehow widespread is dumb is the point. They are performing on a stage, putting on a show.


I wouldn't say that theistic satanism is widespread compared to other religions, but amongst satanists themselves, they are growing in numbers (and some theistic satanists on the internet claim that they now outnumber laveyists, although I have no way of knowing if that is true or not).

I think where I take contention with some of the posts in this thread is that I see a deliberate attempt to either undermine the fact theistic satanists exist or to downplay it in an attempt to sweep the fact under the rug, as if it's of little relevance. At one point it was stated that individuals who hold some of these beliefs don't even exist, and once it was proven that they do, the focus changed to suggesting that they are in the minority and are a fringe group, or that because some people use it as a stage show to sell records that must mean there aren't actually people out there who have these beliefs. Watch the video I posted. Some of them DO have these beliefs.

I've never taken the position once in this thread that there is a secret cabal of theistic satanists lurking in every neighborhood, but I have stated (correctly) that they do infact exist, and aren't as much of a "lunatic fringe" as some would claim. In some cases they are highly organized and operate together to perform their rituals and ceremonies, so the excuse that it is just one or two whackos spread across the world isn't entirely accurate. In fact I would say that is a disingenuous suggestion, since the evidence seems to suggest their numbers are growing (by how much is obviously disputable).



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 11:20 PM
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reply to post by Jesuslives4u
 


He's a powerless choirboy against the righteous. All he does is complain.



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 11:22 PM
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reply to post by DeadSeraph
 


It's funny how Satan is more useful to the righteous than his worshipers. He's pretty useless to them all he does is confine them like pigs at a slaughter.



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 12:03 AM
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Well by Satan, I'm assuming you're talking about the "evil" one spoken about in the bible.

Satan never really did anything we call "evil" He however did do some things that were manipulative, but evil or wicked wouldn't be the right words to use. I can't recall any events in the Christian faith that make him look purely evil. After all, he was one of god's beloved angels.

My thoughts on Satan, is that he never was something that was evil. He was a rebel who fought against authority. he didn't want to be a second class citizen under god any more, and he wanted to truly be free and have his own power. I guess you could debate his true intention behind it, but I think it had more to do with freedom. After all, he tempted Adam and Eve with the tree of knowledge, trying to give someone knowledge doesn't really sound that evil when you think about it really. Plus, in many cultures they depict a reptile-like creature who is usually the one who gifts humanity with science and other knowledge similar. I think people have been pretty mislead on what the image of Satan/Lucifer really is.

Now, with that being said, I don't believe Satan even exists, much like actual Satanists. I view him more of a symbol. And that's where Laveyan Satanism comes in. It's the more popular Satanism, and they do not literally worship a deity named Satan, or Lucifer if you will. They are actually basically atheists.They view him as a symbol. They also tend to believe that they are their own gods. And by that, I mean that they do not literally think they are gods, but that they are in charge of themselves, and shouldn't have to be subservient. They should be able to live their life freely and not have to feel guilty about their nature. So it kind of makes sense why they got the term Satanism to describe their philosophy.

In closing, I don't think you will find people who are literal devil worshipers who love evil and commit evil as tribute. I think it's more of a myth that gotten started by Christianity that way that can point their fingers at something and say "There's the bad guy!"

I have yet to see or hear of such people.



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 03:05 AM
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peter vlar
reply to post by Jesuslives4u
 


And in typical fashion you respond to nothing, supply no supporting facts to back up anything you've said thus far. That leaves me with two conclusions, that you're a troll or that this is little more than a propaganda piece to make you feel righteous about your spiritual nature. I just don't understand the point of making a thread let alone letting it drag on for nearly 10 pages when you're completely unwilling to have a rational dialogue that takes others views and beliefs into account.
edit on 1-4-2014 by peter vlar because: (no reason given)


Correct. Change your attitude or be ignored.



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 03:18 AM
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reply to post by Jesuslives4u
 


Right... It's my attitude that made you refuse to reply with any real facts or citations to support your claims when asked by multiple posters. Sorry, but it's your attitude that is not conducive to a dialogue. If you wanted a one sided forum to rant about your ideas without the fear of having to support them, you should have created a blog not come onto a discussion board. I was fully prepared to have a civil, fact based conversation but you're not at all interested in that. It's too bad because we might have been able to learn something from one another if you really wanted to discuss and learn.



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 03:52 AM
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Astrocyte
reply to post by Jesuslives4u
 


From my vantage point, this thread is hilarious. The obviously Christian poster Jesuslives4u clearly takes Satan and all the myth-drama that goes with it very seriously. It needs no argument or defence; his position is settled. The world really IS the battleground of a cosmic evil against a cosmic good. But why - if I were someone who thought this way - oh why (I wouldn't be able not to ask this question) does this battle take place?

The concept of God, if it doesn't include everything, is a ridiculous way to think. Were talking about an "ultimate principle". An ultimate principle, by definition, covers everything. Nothing lies outside it.

Thus, to any thinking person who doesn't hold to a childish idea of God, God is a reality. THE reality. The field and everything that happens within it. He is context and particle. I, It, He, She etc. Nothing is not God, since everything, the mystery that is existence, the facticity of this reality which spawns the thought "why" and "what" this world we live in is, happens within a fundamental relational unity. God is by definition, a paradox. Known to the mind not by inference or logic, but by feeling and intuition.

If your way of thinking isn't along these lines ^^^^ than your idea of God, although well intentioned on a purely affective-emotional level, is absurdly ridiculous to someone with a awakened cognitive mind who contemplates this issue in terms of philosophy and spirituality and considers all that myth talk as allegory - very important and eminently true as a metaphor - but not the "thing itself" which is being talked about.

We think in this way just as much we base our religious texts on rich allegory. Metaphor is the human way of doing things. The basic reality of the human condition is relational and social, so it's not at all surprising that we nest our deepest truths in narratives.
edit on 1-4-2014 by Astrocyte because: (no reason given)


Hi,

I respect everyone's opinion but I believe you have not been face to face with the supernatural, have you? You are very correct that I take Satan seriously. He is alive and walking our streets.




The world really IS the battleground of a cosmic evil against a cosmic good. But why - if I were someone who thought this way - oh why (I wouldn't be able not to ask this question) does this battle take place?


Yes it does on more than one level. The spiritual war in the heavens and then on this rock. As some of us know, Satan and his angelic followers have lost the battle in heaven and have been kicked out.....permanently. They can no longer return to heaven where God rules. Now Satan along with his fallen brothers from heaven and his human followers are preparing for war on earth. A final battle but lets not get off topic.





Thus, to any thinking person who doesn't hold to a childish idea of God, God is a reality. THE reality. The field and everything that happens within it. He is context and particle. I, It, He, She etc. Nothing is not God, since everything, the mystery that is existence, the facticity of this reality which spawns the thought "why" and "what" this world we live in is, happens within a fundamental relational unity. God is by definition, a paradox. Known to the mind not by inference or logic, but by feeling and intuition.


First....God is a he.....not a she or an it at least that is what the Christians, Jews and Islam believe and BTW you are not a god. If you are please do something of supernatural significance on a world wide scale for all of us to witness. Also God is not some type of "warm nice feeling" you get .......he is as real as you or me.

If I have correctly interpreted you, you are agnostic, if so, that is your belief.

I did not start this thread to start a religious war.


I attempted to reach out to those who worship Satan. The true followers of Satan not the wannabes. To start a dialouge with them and find out why they have chosen the fallen one. Like some ATS participants I too have studied the bible, Satan, demonology, and the supernatural for over 20 years and one thing that I have learned is if you want dialog it will not happen by making insults or being "mean spirited", you start off asking simple questions hoping to draw them near so they will talk. If you show no signs of respect they will walk away.






edit on 2-4-2014 by Jesuslives4u because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 04:00 AM
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peter vlar
reply to post by Jesuslives4u
 


Right... It's my attitude that made you refuse to reply with any real facts or citations to support your claims when asked by multiple posters. Sorry, but it's your attitude that is not conducive to a dialogue. If you wanted a one sided forum to rant about your ideas without the fear of having to support them, you should have created a blog not come onto a discussion board. I was fully prepared to have a civil, fact based conversation but you're not at all interested in that. It's too bad because we might have been able to learn something from one another if you really wanted to discuss and learn.


Not true, you take offense to my post and it shows with your sneer comments. I do have an open mind and available for discussion but apparently you have been offended by what I say about witches and warlocks probably because you are one. If I am wrong then I am wrong, feel free to correct me.

You want to have dialogue fine, I have no problem with that. You ask for real facts? Isn't there enough information on the internet, books, newspapers, and TV ? Is that not enough for you?




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