Policeman blindsides girl at arizona university

reply to post by Pants3204

From what I've read (and it was mainly heresay), it seems they did have brand new riot training to test out (posted about this earlier in the thread).

Also, I had one last thought on this. What if someone was pointing a gun at her and the cop was trying to get her out of harm's way? Could happen. Probably not though...just trying to think of alternative possibilities here because what it looks like really isn't good.

reply to post by speculativeoptimist


It doesn't matter political or not. Nowhere in the constitution does it state that the only protected speech and protest is political speech. And if you think about it, it was political anyways. There was no problem there, until the police created that problem, then people got angry. The people then voiced their protest, of police acting like assholes, making it as legitimate a protest as any other. The police do not have the authority to order people to go home......

reply to post by ~Lucidity


I agree. It isn't visible in my photographs, but the pepperball guns the police were using, they were pulling out of the packages to use, as if they hadn't been used before.

I commend the police for making an effort to better react to disturbances, but I believe their response in this instance was inappropriate.

lightedhype
Sigh, if the men in this country still had ANY balls. That guy standing there would've at least gave that arsehole officer a good strong shove himself.

That's exactly it ... the reason this occurs, is that nobody fights back ... they sound like some hippies on pot, saying "f. you man ... oh yeah man". But no balls ...

reply to post by solomons path


There was no problems, until the police blundered in full force, and started to order people to go home, as if they have that authority. That is when the problems began by all credible accounts I have heard. The police, acting like they are demigods caused the problems. They were not responding to and dispersing a riot. They were causing one.

reply to post by 5ofineed5aladder


At the end of the day, Cops are people too...Which means there are good ones and then there are efftards like this guy. There is now an internal affairs investigation due to the video. The guy needs to be pulled from the force and charged. Fingers crossed. He has the wrong mentality for the job...and possible for life at large.

~Lucidity
reply to post by Pants3204

 

Also, I had one last thought on this. What if someone was pointing a gun at her and the cop was trying to get her out of harm's way? Could happen. Probably not though...just trying to think of alternative possibilities here because what it looks like really isn't good.

That made me laugh I wonder what story the cop is thinking up in his head right now as Internal Affairs knocks at his door and the press goes wild...it's all over FB and everywhere else now.

reply to post by Pants3204


I think the question you have to ask is this. If there was NO police presence, would you ALL have done the right thing? Would there have been no cars vandalized, no businesses destroyed, no bottles smashed on the streets, etc... history tells me when you left the bar, the bad things weren't far behind and the cops thought police presence would limit/prevent the inevitable.

Another amazing thing is this. Everyone wants cops to police themselves and stop bad behavior. So when is society going to do the same when someone acts like an ass? Why didn't the college kids say STOP acting like idiots? Instead MANY just stood there and watched....so are people in general unable to control themselves as much as those who become cops? I don't think so....

reply to post by 727Sky


Oh man I would have shoved that club straight up that cops backside after I beat his face in with it. Riot cops or not. I hope she gets the video and sues the police department and him or her so bad they will never be able to pay it off.

I don't care who it is, you hit a woman where i can see it and you better run like Carl Lewis cause if I catch ya you will regret it and remember that day forever.

I am glad she wasn't hurt bad and can only hope the person who drilled her loses their job and gets sued. Hopefully her father will catch this loser in a dark alley some night and give him or her proper justice.

reply to post by 727Sky


if she were my daughter, the guy would be in serious danger. Badge or not.

reply to post by 5ofineed5aladder


From the perspective of someone who has been in near-riot situations, they can get ugly really fast. That tactic, is taught to stop surges before they start. It did appear to me to be a female cop. This was a post basketball street celebration, not a protest. The girl who was first in line surging toward the back of the police line, just happened to be first. The cop shoved her back and down, and did not strike her. Notice though, that it worked. Everyone in that area immediately stopped. And the girl herself, appeared to be alright, as evidenced by the fact that she got up and walked away. It was a two handed shove across the shoulders...and it was just one, then the officer retreated back to a defensive stationary position.

In my town, there were similar "celebrations", with tens of thousands of students and others, drinking in the street, setting couches on fire, and pelting people with bottles. They made 28 arrests....after a WIN. Last year, it was even uglier, with police from eight surrounding jurisdictions called in as well. I've been in these situations a few times, as a firefighter EMT. No one who has not been, really has any idea how quickly a mob can erupt. So while it may look bad, the fact is that that is what they are trained to do, because it is the most effective and does the least amount of harm to anyone, in general. The visual shock of seeing someone go flying, is what stops the other dozen or two or hundred from keeping charging. People can and do die from these things. The goal is to prevent that.

Watch it again. Notice that somewhere.....presumably where the people were surging toward...the larger crowd erupts. People automatically move that direction, usually just out of curiosity, to see what is happening. Except that in a large crowd situation, hundreds or thousands of people converging, will cause injuries. People will get trampled. So the very first person that reaches the point where physical contact is possible, gets shoved back...hard. The others have to see that, or it won't work. They are moving to begin with, on instinct. And the only thing that will psychologically break that, is another instinctual reaction, which the cop triggered, by shoving her hard enough to be physically knocked down. Just trying to stop her would not have had any effect on the remaining people in the area. They would have kept pressing and quickly the mere weight of the crowd would have overwhelmed her.

I'm as against cop violence as anyone on this site. I think it is horrific, and I plaster my facebook wall with examples that I think are real and unwarranted. But, this one does not rise to that. This was effective crowd control, in an environment where people could be easily hurt or even killed if it is allowed to escalate. Again, it wasn't some protest for or against any wrong. It was a drunken sports street party. No one had to be there. And no one was overcome by some emotional cause to right a wrong. It was basketball. My own daughter called me from the one last year, and said it was getting rowdy and she couldn't find some of her friends, and she wanted to know what to do. I told her and the friend she was still with, to leave immediately. She was very glad she did.

I think we dilute our cause against real cop abuse, when we take just anything that happens to be caught on video, as evidence of brutality. But, cops who are afraid to act immediately and decisively, do no one any good. It's a fine line sometimes. I know at least a dozen cops casually, and a few personally. I run into them on emergency scenes every day I work. By far, most of them are good and would not harm anyone unnecessarily. But, they are routinely put in situations, at least several times a day, where failing to act would be a mistake, and dangerous for others. Controlling a scene is a psychological thing....and a balance. But, it cannot be done by anyone who doesn't demonstrate that they are willing to act immediately. If I'm at the scene of a shooting, I don't want cops crouching behind their cars. I want them fanning out and securing the scene and capturing anyone who is a bad guy. And that can't be done timidly. It has to be done quickly, affirmatively, and effectively. Often the decision whether to proceed further is based on a one or two second evaluation of the person they have to pass, to press forward, as to whether the one being passed is actually a threat or just a bystander. I guess all this to say.....You can't have toothless watchdogs. And the things that actually work in high tension situations, are not always the things that look best on video...especially to people who have never actually been there. It it really ever happens that TSHTF, cops are going to be important to everyone innocent. If you want them to protect us then, then we owe an obligation not to vilify them the rest of the time, if it is unwarranted.

Please do me a favor. After having read this, no matter if you think I am right or wrong, go back and watch it again, with the things I just said in mind. And think about the greater implications, rather than just the immediate scene in front of you. Thanks. I appreciate it.

Stay well,

Thomas

IroncladFT
reply to post by Pants3204

 

I think the question you have to ask is this. If there was NO police presence, would you ALL have done the right thing? Would there have been no cars vandalized, no businesses destroyed, no bottles smashed on the streets, etc... history tells me when you left the bar, the bad things weren't far behind and the cops thought police presence would limit/prevent the inevitable.

Another amazing thing is this. Everyone wants cops to police themselves and stop bad behavior. So when is society going to do the same when someone acts like an ass? Why didn't the college kids say STOP acting like idiots? Instead MANY just stood there and watched....so are people in general unable to control themselves as much as those who become cops? I don't think so....

Moral equivalency? You are really arguing that?

Cops are people too. I don't want them to police themselves. i want them to stay the hell away from me. Its not that hard.

we have empowered people among us to victimize us legally. why? and, if we are really going to do that, why would we select these people based on who has the lower IQ? Hiring standards were just approved by courts, and the long story short: cops can be selected for being a little less intelligent. not because it makes them better officers, but because it increases retention rates.

Cops should be turned over every now and then anyway. Career policemen is as bad an idea as career politician. But beyond that....we are really going to empower people with the right to kill you, and then select them not on who is most qualified, but rather on who will stick around the longest?

reply to post by IroncladFT


Certainly some level of response was called for. Tensions WERE high and a police presence was certainly warranted; however, the question is if filling the streets with police cars and yelling over megaphones to go home when people were already leaving the area is appropriate. To the best of my knowledge, there was little to no property damage as a result of the "riot."

The police had a very similar response after the Thursday night game. They barraged University Avenue with police cruisers and riot units, despite there not actually being any violence going on. It seems as if the police's generic response to a March Madness game was to throw everything they had at the area until something did or didn't break out.

Here is a photo from Thursday night. The response was remarkably similar, even without a riot occurring.

I still don't understand why other people watch this happen, and just yell curse words at the cops. If that happened in front of me, I would've taken the cop right down. Sure, I'd probably be the only one in the crowd to do this, sure I would probably get stomped by the cowards in blue, but don't people realize that something needs to be done. What happened to fighting fire with fire? The cops continue to do this to us because we all sit back and don't want to get involved with what just happened to the person next to us. I'll tell you all something. This is combat, pure and simple, and if you're not willing to stand up for the person next to you, you don't belong in a protest, riot, or anywhere near a situation like that. If people swarmed that cop, and started beating hiss a** I bet the cops would think twice about doing stupid crap like this. Especially when the people outnumber the cops 20 to 1 easily. I can't stress enough that people start stepping up to police when they are abusing the public. That's your fellow citizen getting beat down out there for no good reason, doesn't that make you frustrated enough to act, not just shout? We can't keep staying idle, and passive like this anymore folks. The government has this little motto, "If you see something, say something". Well people, us citizens should have our own little motto as well when we see police abuse. "If you see something, do something" don't just sit back, and record, get involved, stand up for someone once in your lives. Or else we could all someday wind up like Kelly Thomas, and no one will help you, just like no one helped that poor guy. When is enough going to be enough?

TKDRL
reply to post by solomons path

 

There was no problems, until the police blundered in full force, and started to order people to go home, as if they have that authority. That is when the problems began by all credible accounts I have heard. The police, acting like they are demigods caused the problems. They were not responding to and dispersing a riot. They were causing one.

edit on Mon, 31 Mar 2014 17:01:05 -0500 by TKDRL because: (no reason given)

Not true . . . only major ones to make the national news were '97 and '01, but they do this every year when UA exists the tourney. Clock work, so police are on stand by waiting . . . past evidence.

Day before game talking about preparations and incidents during prior game:

Thursday, an excited crowd filled University Boulevard causing Tucson Police to close Main Gate Square. A few fights started and officers arrested 1 student.

TPD Chief Roberto Villasenor said his department has been planning for similar celebrations but was surprised it happened so early in the tournament.

"If you allow the crowd to build, at first it's all just exuberance and excitement about the victory," Villasenor said. "But then they want to keep on going. And they want to keep going and things start happening."

Before tournament started talking about police prepping:

Tucson police are tuning up for March Madness.

While University of Arizona basketball fans would love to see the team win another national title, no one wants to see a repeat of the trouble that's followed their trips to championship games.

He says officers will be out early with pre-game and after-game strategies.

He says the goal is to prevent any problems by making sure people have an understanding of what behavior is expected on the streets.

From previous riots:

Police fired stun grenades and rubber bullets as hundreds of disappointed University of Arizona fans overturned vehicles and set at least three afire Monday night.

And:

In 1997 over 5000 fans spilled onto the streets to celebrate the University of Arizona’s victory over Kentucky in the NCAA championship. Many fans set buildings and cars on fire. Tucson Police officers responded with riot gear to disperse the crowd. Four people, including a police officer were injured. At least 40 people who said they were not involved in the disturbance, but where in the location of the riots, reported to have been struck by less lethal munitions.

In 2001 an estimated 2,000 fans had spilled into the streets after Arizona lost the NCAA championship to Duke in Minneapolis. Police fired stun grenades and rubber bullets to disperse University of Arizona fans who had overturned vehicles and set at least three on fire.

You also seem to forget the fact that the students started throwing things at the cops first . . . "Peaceful" people wouldn't begin the violence from a "safe distance" unprovoked, outside of police presence which is certainly warranted based on past behaviors.

It's Tucson and it's March . . . that's what they do down there. Police know it and aren't going to let it get started . . . Boo Hoo, the entitled brats don't get to run wild in the streets and destroy other people's property.

reply to post by Enderdog


I have been in plenty of large crowd situations, even been on duty in a few while in the service, and riots erupt in a very tiny percentage of the time.

You can stop a crowd from moving into an area just by waving you hands. What the officer did was completely out of hand, she knocked this girl down, and is lucky that the girl wasn't hurt.

If you think you have the right to physically attack someone for effective crowd control, you shouldn't be a police officer.

This wasn't a crowd surging, it was a small group of two or three people trying to leave the area.

The only people who seemed out of control were the police.

Read the account given by somebody who was on the scene.

This looks more like something to justify the police budget then it does anything else, except police abuse.

reply to post by solomons path


How many of those previous riots were sparked by the police action? If this is how the police behaved on previous occasion, then it don't surprise me any..... Nice we have lots of people nowadays walking around with cameras on their phones, so the public can see with their own eyes how most riots really start. With police in riot gear, acting like they are overlords stirring the hornet's nest. What do they care right, they got on armor, and get to play with all their toys. Who cares if they cause people to be hurt and property all messed up. They get to play with their fun toys, that is all that really counts. Of course they are going to say the crowd started it, wouldn't look to good to the public if they knew the truth.

TKDRL
reply to post by solomons path

 

How many of those previous riots were sparked by the police action? If this is how the police behaved on previous occasion, then it don't surprise me any..... Nice we have lots of people nowadays walking around with cameras on their phones, so the public can see with their own eyes how most riots really start. With police in riot gear, acting like they are overlords stirring the hornet's nest. What do they care right, they got on armor, and get to play with all their toys. Who cares if they cause people to be hurt and property all messed up. They get to play with their fun toys, that is all that really counts. Of course they are going to say the crowd started it, wouldn't look to good to the public if they knew the truth.

edit on Mon, 31 Mar 2014 17:46:59 -0500 by TKDRL because: (no reason given)

Well . . . none were the result of police action. The current response is a reaction to the behaviors of the community, not a symptom. '97 there was no police response until chaos and chaos didn't care when they would respond. '01 there was too little police presence and those present were not in riot gear, so they couldn't deal with the chaos. Now, just as the police would for any other large event, they work logistics. Unlike most other large events, the Tucson PD also have to prepare for riots which means officers standing by until the crowds become unruly.

This student body is no stranger to stuff like this and gets no pass from me . . . they've hospitalized opposing teams cheerleaders during football games, made death threats to refs over basketball games, beat up grade schoolers in visiting attire, and what they do best, riot after tournament games.

I'm all for calling the police out when they overstep their bounds . . . but, with this community and their habits, the police are doing what they are paid to do. Protect other people's property from drunk college kids that feel like they can rule the streets and cause chaos. The only way to combat the natural urge to predict future poor behavior is to not act like they want to riot, which they failed to do when they began throwing bottles, rocks, and shooting fireworks into the police presence.

reply to post by 5ofineed5aladder


If it was me this bastard shoved, I would have promptly rolled around like I was
in agony yelling please call me an ambulance and then sued the bastards!

Lawsuits are the only way to get any attention today and the only
way to stick it to these bastards and make sure this officer gets severely
disciplined!

reply to post by poet1b


Do we know that it's a she officer yet?

Maybe I missed that part, but I haven't seen any official comment yet other than they (the police) are "aware" and are "investigating."

ETA: Wonder if there were any other surveillance cams in the area that may have caught this.