How Globalization and Climate change destroyed Ancient Civilization

zardust
Thanks again for the reply. Like I said, its so new to me, I'm relying totally on others take on things. My main focus in studying these things is on the mythology, which reflects on the practices of the people.

It does to an extent, but we have, as never before, a huge body of archaeological evidence in which to view that mythology contextually. A good book to start off from is this one...

www.amazon.co.uk...

It is accessible, and highlights some of the key debates and disagreements between archaeologists. Also, Eden is in the East by Stephen Oppenheimer which is a fantastic piece of work comparing global mythology.

zardust
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

Thanks. Have you read any of the authors that posit overall non-violence in Pre-Historic peoples? From what I've seen they tend to fall in "feminist" studies.

One of my all-time favorite books is "Before the Flood" by Ian Wilson.

In this case, the flood he is talking about is the Black Sea Flood that took place c. 5600 BCE. He describes the early indigenous people of Anatolia (modern-day Turkey) and he definitely describes them as a non-violent race of people who were the first to develop agriculture & lived an egalitarian life-style in communities where there is no evidence of a caste system or elites. Furthermore, they have found absolutely no evidence that the early Anatolians ever fought wars.

Many of the so-called "goddess statues" were found there & feminists assume this means that they were a goddess worshiping culture.

But I wonder about that. When I look at the statues, what I see is a wish for prosperity & I suspect that the statues were originally given away as "good luck" symbols to couples who mated and decided to set up a household together and raise a family.

Women with huge boobs, bellies & buttocks are generally women who've given birth to a number of children, and very fat women are women whose husbands have proven to be good providers. I think the statues represent a wish for many children & much food; sentiments that are surely understandable in a society that had previously undergone the hardships of the last Ice Age.

This was the race of people that built Gobekli-Tepi and they seem to represent about the only ancient society I know of that lived in peace and at the same time enjoyed a great deal of prosperity.

I highly recommend Ian Wilson's book.

Riddles
In this case, the flood he is talking about is the Black Sea Flood that took place c. 5600 BCE. He describes the early indigenous people of Anatolia (modern-day Turkey) and he definitely describes them as a non-violent race of people who were the first to develop agriculture & lived an egalitarian life-style in communities where there is no evidence of a caste system or elites. Furthermore, they have found absolutely no evidence that the early Anatolians ever fought wars.

They were certainly amongst the first to practice agriculture and indeed there is no evidence of war or conflict amongst them, and their burial practices support the notion that there was, at least, gender equality. As I pointed out though, conflict usually arises when there is competition for resources, including breeding partners, or if there are other external stressors present, such as harsh or dramatically changing environmental factors. None of these were present at Catal Hoyuk. Over time, due to farming practices, the land lost it's fertility and yields inevitably fell to the point where mortality due to food shortages may have resulted, but this only affected Catal Hoyuk, it was an internal problem, one that was most likely remedied by groups moving on and establishing fresh settlements until the site was abandoned altogether.

I disagree with Wilson's hypothese that there was a mass migration to the Neoeuxine Lake/Black Sea region, however it is perfectly possible that some may have traversed the not inconsiderable distance to the lake and intergrated with populations already there.

Riddles
Many of the so-called "goddess statues" were found there & feminists assume this means that they were a goddess worshiping culture.

But I wonder about that. When I look at the statues, what I see is a wish for prosperity & I suspect that the statues were originally given away as "good luck" symbols to couples who mated and decided to set up a household together and raise a family.

Women with huge boobs, bellies & buttocks are generally women who've given birth to a number of children, and very fat women are women whose husbands have proven to be good providers. I think the statues represent a wish for many children & much food; sentiments that are surely understandable in a society that had previously undergone the hardships of the last Ice Age.

Given the location of Catal Hoyuk it would be unwise to assume that they had ventured far enough north to have suffered the real hardships of the LGM, but part of the evolution of creating fixed settlements is the development of the technology needed to store food as insurance against shortages. This is, in part, what led to the Neolithic revolution and the development of agriculture. That, and the constriction of the semi-arid grasslands, during the LGM, to the highland borders where Emmer and Spelt wheat were able to be genetically modified according to human needs. It is in those areas, and because of the ice age's affect on the regions weather systems, that plant domestication was able to evolve when and as it did. In the subsequent subpluvial period, when desert gave way to savannah, pastorialism similarly thrived, and key animals were domesticated. The 5.9 kiloyear event, which precipitated the current dessication of the Sahara, and affected rainfall patterns throughout that latitude, led to the mass migration to the river valleys, particularly in India, Africa and the Near East. This created conflict in some areas, where the interests of nomadic pastorialists and settled farmers clashed over land ownership and what we would now term, grazing rights. In Northern Europe though, where competition for resources was always somewhat more fierce both during and after the ice age, that conflict was always apparent. It reached it's peak as the land adjusted to having the glacial weight of it's shoulders leading to substantial land rising and sea falls.

Riddles
This was the race of people that built Gobekli-Tepi and they seem to represent about the only ancient society I know of that lived in peace and at the same time enjoyed a great deal of prosperity.

The prosperity was relatively short lived, and despite the size of the Catal Hoyuk population, they were really a large tribe with no one to really threaten them. There was no need for conflict.

Riddles
I highly recommend Ian Wilson's book.

I appreciate the recommendation but I think that it is largely an opinion piece with a fair amount of cherry-picking of sources. Barry Cuncliffe's Europe Between the Oceans 9000BC-AD1000 and Steven Mithen's After the Ice provide a more evidence based approach.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


I haven't read those books, but I thank you for the recommendations. It's nice to find other people who have paid attention to what went on during Ice Age times and thereafter. Most of the people I know just give me blank stares if I start talking about events relating to the last Ice Age.

By the way, as far as I know the Anatolians had no enemies until the arrival of the tribe of Anu to the Middle East who were originally a group that had lived in the Punjab region of India. The Anu tribe had lost an early war there, and as a result, most of them were driven out of India. When they arrived to ancient Iraq, the first thing they did was start killing.

The Anatolian side of that story appears to have been told in an ancient Hurrian text titled "Kingship in Heaven." Actually, what we have is a rather chopped up Hittite version of an earlier Hurrian tale that I suspect originated with the Anatolians.

I have thought about that text a lot over the years and have concluded that it and another Hurrian tale titled "The Song of Ullikummis" appears to tell the "other side" of the story told in the Babylonian Enuma Elish.

Are you familiar with those Hurrian texts? If I could find them online, I'd gladly provide links but sadly, so far the Hurrian texts don't seem to have made it to the internet. I sure can't find them anyway.

The Hurrians and Anatolians were Caucasians and most got overtaken by the Semitic tribes in the Middle East. I think it would probably surprise a great many white folks to find out that as the Middle East became more populated, their Middle Eastern Caucasian ancestors were generally treated as servants and slaves.

reply to post by Riddles


I am not familiar with those texts, but I have found them here...

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

...the Hittite versions at any rate. Much mythology eludes to transfers of power, the events in the heavens reflecting those on earth, the gods of the old rulers being usurped by the tribal gods of the new, conquering heroes. That seems to be very much the case here and in the ongoing tradition of victor's history. A sedentary lifestyle, combined with hereditary leadership often leads to perceived weakness, and or complacency. When times get tough, due to climate change, those who are used to harsher lives and proof of strength gain the upper hand, enabling conquest and the taking of resources. On the otherhand, when settlements thrive and expand, they are able to organise armies and take slaves from neighbouring tribal groups. The ancient world seems to operate very much in terms of those swings and round-a-bouts. In both cases though, the gene, as well as the idea pool, is somewhat revitalised, giving both groups greater dynamism. I am certain that any of us, no matter what colour or creed we currently are, if we were able to trace our lineage back that far would find a slave in there somewhere along the way.

I very much enjoyed the Song of Ullikummi though, thank you very much for highlighting that for me. It is most interesting.