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Rethinking Northwoods.

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posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 02:39 PM
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Rethinking Northwoods.



Operation Northwoods is perhaps one of the most important documents in conspiracy literature be it the assassination of JFK, the Oklahoma City bombing or 9/11 Operation Northwoods often rears its head. This thread is focused specifically on the later theory regarding 9/11, many who are sceptical of the official narrative regarding 9/11 hold Operation Northwoods up as setting a historical precedence for the attacks showing clear evidence that the American government was once prepared to attack its own people in a false flag as a pretext to war. Many have even described it as the 9/11 blueprint, regardless of one’s beliefs it cannot be denied that it is a controversial document that deserves investigation for those wanting to develop a greater understanding of the events of 9/11.

The Northwoods Conspiracy.

All of the big names in the 9/11 truth movement have gave their views on Operation Northwoods and its implications for 9/11 conspiracies. Most notably it is the opening gambit to Lose Change and Jesse Ventura along with Alex Jones have this to say.



Then there are others on the Internet who have this to say.



While Others have asked:


is it beyond comprehension that tactics similar to Operation Northwoods might have been used in relation to the 9/11 attacks in order to create "a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat?"


The trend that one notices when reading the literature from the alternative media regarding 9/11 is that the “truthers” version of events of 9/11, that is to say it was a false flag, fall parallel with the plans laid out in Operation Northwoods pointing to specific chunks of the document which make it quite clear that in 1962 the Joint Chiefs of Staff were planning to conduct a number of false flag operations as a means to generate public support for a war against Cuba. The document even states that:


Since it would seem desirable to use legitimate provocation as the basis for US military intervention in Cuba a cover and deception plan, to include requisite preliminary actions such as has been developed in response to Task 33 c, could be executed as an initial effort to provoke Cuban reactions. Harassment plus deceptive actions to convince the Cubans of imminent invasion would be emphasized. Our military posture throughout execution of the plan will allow a rapid change from exercise to intervention if Cuban response justifies.


Or to put that in our language they were planning a number of false flags against US targets and blaming the Cubans so they could send more young men off to fight the wars of older, richer men.

The document goes on to list a number of possible false flags that could be staged, this includes a number of attacks against the Guantanamo bay base by starting up riots, blowing up munitions in the base and even staging a Cuban attack on the base. The document goes on to make mention to the “Maine incident”, staging terrorist attacks inside Miami and even blowing up American commercial airlines and blaming Cuba all with faked victims.

There can be absolutely no doubt then that Operation Northwoods was a plan that proposed the use of false flag attacks as a pretext for war.

Some History.

And I am not going to deny that Operation Northwoods was a proposal to stage false flag attacks, but what I am going to do is make some very pertinent points that cannot be overlooked that demonstrate both the context behind Northwoods and how when it is looked at closely it has nothing to do with 9/11.

So to start by putting this in its rightful historical context, this document is dated March 13 1962, over 40 years before someone started flying planes into buildings but only months before the Cuban Missile Crisis and a year after the failed bay of pigs invasion. The Americans where desperate, tension between the Soviet Union had never been higher and in a few months Jupiter Missiles would be aimed and in range of hitting the heart of America.

It was with this historical back drop that the Joint Chiefs of Staff had a plan drawn up that called for these false flag attacks, this plan was then signed off by a interesting character named Lyman Lemnitzer who presented the plan to the Defence Sectary Robert McNamara. Three days later it is said the plan was discussed between Lemnitzer and JFK, JFK was said to be outraged by the proposals and three months later moved Lemnitzer out of the pentagon to the Allied Commander of NATO.



[it is interesting to note that Lemnitzer is often raised as a potential suspect in the JFK assassination, apparently JFK and others were not fans of the man and he thought JFK was soft on communism but that is for another time]

After the meeting between JFK and Lemnitzer the document was achieved and never seen again until the JFK assassination review board declassified it in 1997 and it then appeared in a 1998 CNN documentary.

The exact history as to what happened with the document and who said what is unclear, some say that Lemnitzer never even met with JFK to discuss the plans although it is said he personally binned them. Speaking years later MaNamara was asked about the document he said that:


“I have absolutely zero recollection of it. But I sure as hell would have rejected it,” McNamara said, adding, “I really can’t believe that anyone was proposing such provocative acts in Miami. How stupid!”


What’s this got to do with 9/11?

Well yes that is the big question is it not? Just what exactly does Operation Northwoods have to do with 9/11 and the simple answer is.....

Nothing

Really, not a thing. The brief historical outline above quite obviously shows that it was created at a time when the American national security was under huge stress, they were facing the communist bear on their doorstep. It was a plan for security American national security by entering into a war with Cuban and removing the communist threat.


The really big key issue though when looking at Northwoods in relation to 9/11 is really quite simple, Operation Northwoods does not suggest anything like what happened on 9/11 it does not talk about flying planes into buildings (the twin towers were not even built yet), it does not talk about any action that would actually kill Americans. That is the big difference, yes it talks about blowing up drone planes and staging a number of other attacks but at no point does it actually explicitly say “fly 2 plains into two yet to be built towers and then blow said towers up”. Even if that was the case, if Northwoods was a blueprint for the terrorist attacks of 9/11, why would the release the document before the attacks?

Actually the only thing that Northwoods proves is that there was one a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who was not very popular and suggested a false flag to invade Cuba. The humble false flag is the plot line to most Hollywood movies, anybody could think it up.

And yes it does prove that some within the seats of power have the imagination to dream up these false flag plots but it is a massive jump to go from saying that some guy in the early ‘60’s could think up a false flag to saying that 9/11 then must have been a false flag.

Northwoods is just a distraction that truthers put down in the winder debate to distract and deflect other points they would rather ignore, but actually has just about as much to do with 9/11 as my wet socks.......





posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 02:48 PM
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reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin
 


In no way am I trying to say it had anything to do with 9/11, but what it does do is tell you that our government is willing to do nasty things to get its way.

Sure, operation Northwoods isn't in any way what happened on 9/11, but neither is the story they tell you. Something ELSE happened that day.

Sure Kenedy said no, but would bush when his money is in oil, and this would allow him to start a war for oil?



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by andr3w68
 


And i agree with you.

But anyone with a little imagination can dream up the epic 9/11 false flag.

Actually, as a side not, Dylan Avery's Lose change actually started out fictional movie he was trying to make about him and his friends discovering 9/11 was a government false flag, he had this whole fantasy he had created about the government false flag he was going to base his movie on. That was until he realized when he was doing his research that he could make a bigger name for himself if he went form fictional movie director to director of ground breaking documentary.

Anybody could dream up the false flag scenario

Mixing Northwoods in with that is just a distraction from the wider debate as it has nothing to do with the events of 9/11


+5 more 
posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 03:08 PM
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reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin
 


The title should be, why are you trying to defend a government whom has a history of not telling the truth UNLESS they get caught?

You damn well know the reason people bring up Northwoods! It is a declassified document that shows just how far those in the US government are willing to go to push their agenda! Do you think just because they got caught they have found Jesus???

Perhaps the only accurate assumption you have made was the "Operations Northwoods" did NOT have anything to do with 9/11!

What about the Tuskegee Experiment? Hmmmmm? I guess you have an excuse for the US government giving people in Guatamala syphilis too??? How about Operation Gladio, or the "Gulf of Tonkin"? Do you have excuses for those too?

Let me tell you something! I am a US citizen and I damn sure am disgusted with the things my government has gotten away with! Your average citizen gets 10 years in prison for much less, while those in the government get a slap on the ass and end up still making money on the MSM shilling for their masters!

My question to you is this, "Why are you defending a country and government that you don't even belong too?"???????!!!!!!



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 03:16 PM
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The timing of this thread is curious considering Turkey's latest revelation no ?



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 03:33 PM
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A well thought out assessment that I tend to agree with..

However, using Northwoods as the template for 911:

You could argue that because the President cant always be trusted do what is perceived as "the right thing in the national interest" by "shadowy Govt conspirators" (as displayed by JFK's morality), they learned their lesson and decided that in the future, the President and his close staff would not be part of the decision making process but would instead become "actors" in the "production".

Tell them nothing but provide a scenario that achieves the goals?

The Bin Laden/Bush family (Arbusto) connection seems like a PR disaster waiting to happen so exploit it
You could pull US support assets and funding from Afghanistan to allow a new and dangerous terror group to flourish
You could supply intel via Pakistani SIS to the people who assassinated Ahmad Shah Massoud
You could schedule drills for quick response jets elsewhere on 911
You could have evidence of who committed the 911 acts waiting for investigators at the scene...dont bother with forensics..just have a tattered passport.
You could make the president part of the production by giving him 5 mins on live TV to think over exactly what "Mr President, the Nation is under attack" means...
The list goes on.

All of these things wouldnt require tacit approval by the Prez and would be achievable by parties who are Pan Presidential (senior military/intelligence/political figures who keep their jobs longer than 2 terms/8 years)

Not saying I think the above is the case but Northwoods should be considered as "the one that got away" for the bad guys rather than an example of how the system would prevent an event such as 911 occurring.




edit on 29-3-2014 by Jukiodone because: (no reason given)
edit on 29-3-2014 by Jukiodone because: (no reason given)
edit on 29-3-2014 by Jukiodone because: (no reason given)
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posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 03:58 PM
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reply to post by seeker1963
 


And this is a perfect example of the response i would expect on this site.



The title should be, why are you trying to defend a government whom has a history of not telling the truth UNLESS they get caught? -


absolutely nothing to do with my thread rather a total deflection of the point i am trying to make, you start of right of the bat with going totally off-topic.



You damn well know the reason people bring up Northwoods! It is a declassified document that shows just how far those in the US government are willing to go to push their agenda!


No it shows that in 1963 the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff was prepared to propose false flags as a pretext to war with Cuba.



Do you think just because they got caught they have found Jesus??? -


They did not get caught, the documents were released and made open to the public



Perhaps the only accurate assumption you have made was the "Operations Northwoods" did NOT have anything to do with 9/11!


Well yes, that is kind of the message behind the thread, it should not be a topic that is raised in the debate over 9/11 because it does not have anything to do with 9/11.




What about the Tuskegee Experiment? Hmmmmm? I guess you have an excuse for the US government giving people in Guatamala syphilis too??? How about Operation Gladio, or the "Gulf of Tonkin"? Do you have excuses for those too?


What!

I write a thread about how Operation Northwoods has nothing to do with 9/11 and you jump form that to think that I support or excuse the American governments Tuskegee experiments?

I find that quite frankly insulting, what did i do to upset you so much that you thought that was something that was acceptable to say to me. That comment says much more about you than it says about me.

And nothing to do with Operation Northwoods and 9/11


Let me tell you something! I am a US citizen and I damn sure am disgusted with the things my government has gotten away with! Your average citizen gets 10 years in prison for much less, while those in the government get a slap on the ass and end up still making money on the MSM shilling for their masters -


hmmmm again nothing to do with Operation Northwoods......

But yes I am also disgusted that your government gets away with what it gets away with.



My question to you is this, "Why are you defending a country and government that you don't even belong too?"???????!!!!!!


hmmmm.... a question that has nothing to do with operation northwoods or 9/11..... starting to notice a pattern with your post.

but let me answer your question, a couple of things come to mind.

Firstly I am not defending anyone all I am saying is that Operation Northwoods had nothing to do with 9/11.

Secondly, what does me not being American matter? There were almost 70 people form the UK killed in those attacks, but even that should not really matter, if i want to write a thread about 9/11 I can go ahead and do so regardless of my nationality. Again i think that says more about you, bringing that up than it does about my thread.

But lastly let me actually get to the point you are making, why am i "defending a government and a country....."

Like i said I am not but if you are interested you can look through my previous threads and you will find several that are highly critical of several issues regarding the American government.

Please try to keep your response on-topic.



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 04:13 PM
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But, theres no topic here, as is. You come with a diatribe about op northwoods and how its not connected to 9/11, very well...
The similarity however is that there is the possibility that it was right like the theorists believe, that it was all concocted internally, as has been posted above.
Not related to northwoods, because it happened 40 odd years afterwards, but the minds behind northwoods were and some still are there. However your criticism of the conspiracists using this as a tool to further knowledge, aka invalidating it, just begs the question, what are you on about?
edit on 2014u02201403pm29 by Yusomad because: typos



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 04:22 PM
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reply to post by Yusomad
 


I think what I am on about is quite obvious.

so far everyone on this thread can agree that 9/11 and Northwoods have nothing to do with each other.

Yet it is still commonly raised as a somehow being significant in the 9/11 "truth" when it is not.

It should not even be mentioned when debating 9/11, it should be something that the "truther" just dont mention because its such a distance topic.

Like i said, it is a "distraction"



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 04:28 PM
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reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin
 


My response IS on topic! I am calling you out for you saying that because 9/11 is not the SAME incident as Northwoods, that those whom disagree with official story of 9/11 are wrong for bringing up Northwoods at all!!!!!

Reread your thinly veiled attempt in your own OP!!!

I understand you are mad because I called you out on it, but to whine that I am trying to derail you thread is total BS!

Did you or did you not even agree with the first person whom responded to this post that 9/11 and Northwoods were two different things? Being that you did that, is this topic about Northwoods, or discrediting those whom do not believe the "Official Story"?

Not to mention, that in your original OP you tried to validate your insane opinion by bringing up Alex Jones and Jesse Ventura?

So now what?
edit on 29-3-2014 by seeker1963 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 04:33 PM
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reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin
 



Like i said, it is a "distraction"


The distraction is YOU refusing to admit you F'd up by trying to say that those whom bring up Northwoods in a comparison to 9/11 are doing it for reasons other than the ones you are trying to explain!

You are deflecting the disagreements of those of us whom disagree with your flawed opinion!



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 04:48 PM
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reply to post by seeker1963
 





My response IS on topic!


Really so suggesting that i excuse giving people syphilis in inhuman experiments was on topic.

really?



I am calling you out for you saying that because 9/11 is not the SAME incident as Northwoods


Of course its not the same incident, because Northwoods was not even a incident it was a suggestion and in any case that suggestion looked nothing like what happened on 9/11.



that those whom disagree with official story of 9/11 are wrong for bringing up Northwoods at all!!!!!


Yes because Operation Northwoods and 9/11 have nothing to do with each other as such Operation Northwoods does not belong in a debate about 9/11 so in this thread I am explaining why they they have nothing to do with each other.



Reread your thinly veiled attempt in your own OP!!!


errrr what?



I understand you are mad because I called you out on it, but to whine that I am trying to derail you thread is total BS!


What?

you were off-topic, its off-topic to say i ask me "why i am defending a country and government i do not belong to", its off-topic to say I am find dishing out syphilis like candy or even mention Operation Gladio.

your off topic

and no i am not "mad" at anything.



Did you or did you not even agree with the first person whom responded to this post that 9/11 and Northwoods were two different things? -


Ahh i get the problem i am not being clear.....

Operation Northwoods and 9/11 are two different things.



Two totally different things, 9/11 was a terrorist attack and Operation Northwoods was a proposal for a number of false flag attacks in 1962.

Are we clear on that now, yes northwoods and 9/11 are two different things, they do not belong in the same debate.




Being that you did that, is this topic about Northwoods, or discrediting those whom do not believe the "Official Story"?


sigh....

still not being clear enough....

this is about how Operation Northwoods and 9/11 have nothing to do with each other, as such those skeptical of the offical narrative should not include it in their debates regarding 9/11.



Not to mention, that in your original OP you tried to validate your insane opinion by bringing up Alex Jones and Jesse Ventura?


My "insane opinion"

No it is quite simply just a fact that (ohh really hate repeating myself) Operation Northwoods and 9/11 have nothing to do witch each other.

the second video is probably a better example of what I am getting at a video that talks about Operation Northwoods in the context of 9/11. This simply should not matter because guess what.

Operation northwoods and 9/11 h....



So now what?


you know what

...have nothing to do with each other.



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 04:52 PM
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OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by seeker1963
 





My response IS on topic!


Really so suggesting that i excuse giving people syphilis in inhuman experiments was on topic.

really?



I am calling you out for you saying that because 9/11 is not the SAME incident as Northwoods


Of course its not the same incident, because Northwoods was not even a incident it was a suggestion and in any case that suggestion looked nothing like what happened on 9/11.



that those whom disagree with official story of 9/11 are wrong for bringing up Northwoods at all!!!!!


Yes because Operation Northwoods and 9/11 have nothing to do with each other as such Operation Northwoods does not belong in a debate about 9/11 so in this thread I am explaining why they they have nothing to do with each other.



Reread your thinly veiled attempt in your own OP!!!


errrr what?



I understand you are mad because I called you out on it, but to whine that I am trying to derail you thread is total BS!


What?

you were off-topic, its off-topic to say i ask me "why i am defending a country and government i do not belong to", its off-topic to say I am find dishing out syphilis like candy or even mention Operation Gladio.

your off topic

and no i am not "mad" at anything.



Did you or did you not even agree with the first person whom responded to this post that 9/11 and Northwoods were two different things? -


Ahh i get the problem i am not being clear.....

Operation Northwoods and 9/11 are two different things.



Two totally different things, 9/11 was a terrorist attack and Operation Northwoods was a proposal for a number of false flag attacks in 1962.

Are we clear on that now, yes northwoods and 9/11 are two different things, they do not belong in the same debate.




Being that you did that, is this topic about Northwoods, or discrediting those whom do not believe the "Official Story"?


sigh....

still not being clear enough....

this is about how Operation Northwoods and 9/11 have nothing to do with each other, as such those skeptical of the offical narrative should not include it in their debates regarding 9/11.



Not to mention, that in your original OP you tried to validate your insane opinion by bringing up Alex Jones and Jesse Ventura?


My "insane opinion"

No it is quite simply just a fact that (ohh really hate repeating myself) Operation Northwoods and 9/11 have nothing to do witch each other.

the second video is probably a better example of what I am getting at a video that talks about Operation Northwoods in the context of 9/11. This simply should not matter because guess what.

Operation northwoods and 9/11 h....



So now what?


you know what

...have nothing to do with each other.


What???????

Second line..............



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 04:53 PM
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reply to post by seeker1963
 





The distraction is YOU refusing to admit you F'd up by trying to say that those whom bring up Northwoods in a comparison to 9/11 are doing it for reasons other than the ones you are trying to explain!


This is a problem i keep running into whenever i make a thread on 9/11

civility quickly takes a back seat.

Yes I know why you guys bring it up, you bring it up to point out how elements within the US government at one time had a plan that involved the use of false flags.

But as I have said that should not matter because anyone with a little imagination could do just that and besides Operation Northwoods and the events of 9/11 are in no way similar because Northwoods does not actually involve the killing of American citizens and d billions of dollars wort damage to infrastructure and the a economy.

They are not similar in anyway Operation Northwoods should not be the opening gambit to lose change for example because it has nothing to do with 9/11 in anyway.



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 04:59 PM
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There is an old Latin saying:

Historia est magistra vitae.



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 05:00 PM
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There is a parallelism between Operation Northwoods and 9/11.

When knowing about Operation Northwoods, that high-ranking individuals in the US government could even suggest such an outrageous plan in the 60s, is it that far out to ask if there could be similar surden individuals in the government during the 00 ? Therefore it is relevant.

If you think about it, operation Northwoods is terrorism at its 'finest', why couldn't 9/11 be a "Operation Northwoods v4", perfected?



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 05:01 PM
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OtherSideOfTheCoin
It should not even be mentioned when debating 9/11, it should be something that the "truther" just dont mention because its such a distance topic. Like i said, it is a "distraction"

Actually, it's not a distraction, nor is it distant to 9/11.

You're digging too deep and missing the whole point. The reason why "Operation Northwoods" gets brought up and compared to 9/11 is because "Operation Northwoods" was thought-up and designed to carry out false-flag attacks on U.S. soil and abroad, and blame those attacks on another country to go to war with that country.

9/11 also was a false-flag attack on U.S. soil to go to war with another country(s). But in this case, the "enemy" wasn't just one country. The "enemy" spans multiple countries, and now a good portion of this country (U.S.). Hell, we even invaded at least one country (Iraq) that had nothing to do with 9/11, and based on false pretenses.

That's how 9/11 and "Operation Northwoods" are related. At its simplest, both = false-flag attacks blamed on other countries to go to war with those countries. Except one was carried out, the other was not. And JFK payed the price for it.

Another reason why "Operation Northwoods" is brought up is to show how diabolical our military industrial complex was 50-years ago, and that it's not out of the question nor impossible to think that another false-flag operation could be designed or carried out.

They designed a false-flag operation before. They can and will do it again.



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 05:07 PM
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reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin
 



This is a problem i keep running into whenever i make a thread on 9/11 civility quickly takes a back seat.


Why did civility take a back seat? Hmmm maybe because you chose to ignore what those whom disagreed with you said?


Yes I know why you guys bring it up, you bring it up to point out how elements within the US government at one time had a plan that involved the use of false flags.


Which explains the whole fallacy behind this argument! Did you or did you not just address the whole issue of this ridiculous argument????? But yet, I am the bad guy?


But as I have said that should not matter because anyone with a little imagination could do just that and besides Operation Northwoods and the events of 9/11 are in no way similar because Northwoods does not actually involve the killing of American citizens and d billions of dollars wort damage to infrastructure and the a economy.


Why shouldn't it matter? OR are you saying that because you were the OP you can pick and choose what responses are acceptable? Also, how does your imagination become more important than mine?


They are not similar in anyway Operation Northwoods should not be the opening gambit to lose change for example because it has nothing to do with 9/11 in anyway.


Here you go again! Failing to address the points myself and a few others already addressed to you in this thread!
Myself and others have already said that they are two different incidents! YOU are the one whom refuses to allow us to speak our piece on the fact that if a government can get away with something once, what will stop them from doing it again!



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 05:12 PM
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reply to post by _BoneZ_
 





You're digging too deep and missing the whole point. The reason why "Operation Northwoods" gets brought up and compared to 9/11 is because "Operation Northwoods" was thought-up and designed to carry out false-flag attacks on U.S. soil and abroad, and blame those attacks on another country to go to war with that country.


You could be right, i could just be over thinking it a little and going to deep.

But when put into its historical context its quite obvious why there were some at the pentagon who would have thought up these plans. America was not so desperate back in 2001 as it was in 1962.

There is also a very big deference, Operation Northwoods did not call for the killing of a single American citizen, a 9/11 false flag would have.




9/11 also was a false-flag attack on U.S. soil to go to war with another country(s). But in this case, the "enemy" wasn't just one country. The "enemy" spans multiple countries, and now a good portion of this country (U.S.). Hell, we even invaded at least one country (Iraq) that had nothing to do with 9/11, and based on false pretenses. -


We both know there there are a lot of highly debatable and contentious issues contained in this little paragraph. I do get what you are trying to say but at the same time I am going to have to let this bit of bait go free.




That's how 9/11 and "Operation Northwoods" are related. At its simplest, both = false-flag attacks blamed on other countries to go to war with those countries. Except one was carried out, the other was not. And JFK payed the price for it.


But that only applies if you believe 9/11 was a false flag, I do not, I do think however the JFK angle is a interesting one, it is one i intend to look into a little bit deeper.




Another reason why "Operation Northwoods" is brought up is to show how diabolical our military industrial complex was 50-years ago, and that it's not out of the question nor impossible to think that another false-flag operation could be designed or carried out.

They designed a false-flag operation before. They can and will do it again.


Yes i would agree but again it is a hell of a big jump to go from saying they designed a false flag once before to saying 9/11 could also have been a false flag.

But again that gets into a debate that is to wide for any one thread.

Thanks for posting, I do understand your perspective but I just do not think that 9/11 (even if it was a false flag) would have anything what so ever to do with Northwoods or is even remotely similar to Northwoods.



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 05:17 PM
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reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin
 



Yes i would agree but again it is a hell of a big jump to go from saying they designed a false flag once before to saying 9/11 could also have been a false flag.


It's called precedence! If you are unaware of what that means ask a lawyer or look it up! That is what myself and others have been trying to tell you!

Odd that it took a moderator for their opinion to bring you into topic?






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