Fireman detained for not moving truck!

Bedlam

TheLieWeLive
Allow me to be the devils advocate for a second. If you'll watch the video you see that he does get there first but then the ambulance pulls up beside his truck completely blocking the road.
Now if you are a cop, and you need to get the road clear, who are you going to ask to move? The Firefighter or the Paramedic?

Asking the Firefighter to move was the smarter move. So he got there first big deal. If there was a fire then I would say the paramedic needed to move.

edit on 27-3-2014 by TheLieWeLive because: (no reason given)

Since he got there first, he is incident command. Not only did the cop commit a crime, he's violating police policy.

Not that the prosecutor would ever bring a charge, because cop.

No. He is only in charge on arrival till a higher level of care arrives..then it is passed up in care being handed to the medics.
Then unless there is a threat to safety by ( hypothetical ) weapons or violent bystanders..then cop is in charge for the moment till threat is cleared.

The only way the firefighter may have command of the scene is. If he is a paramedic supervisor. And the fire department and paramedics are one in the same dept.

I still feel the issue should have been resolved once the scene was cleared. But what remains is..the firefighter out of professionalism. Should not behave as he did in front of the patient and bystanders. Once he mouthed off he was deemed incompetent.


Edit: the incident that needs attention is. Go to YouTube and type in. "Firefighter arrested in California" this is a case of LEO stepping way over his boundaries. This one angered me.

Bigburgh

No. He is only in charge on arrival till a higher level of care arrives..then it is passed up in care being handed to the medics.

Then it's still not cop. It's the medics. The cop's still taking authority he doesn't have, either by protocol or by law.

eta: ...or by necessity. He's just being a dick, and a criminal dick at that.

et also add:

The one in CA was the same issue - the firefighters were IC. Not the cops. Not CHP. By CA law, the cop was obstructing, and should have been charged that way. Also he failed to follow protocol. But of course, nothing will happen, because cop. What really needed to happen was a false arrest and an obstruction charge against the cop, and push it until he bleeds. Once you put him off the force and in the pokey for a bit, the other cops will THEN get the message. But when you let him off, it just provokes the other cops to do the same. The law doesn't apply to them, or so it works in practice.

No feedback, no change.

Bedlam

Bigburgh

No. He is only in charge on arrival till a higher level of care arrives..then it is passed up in care being handed to the medics.

Then it's still not cop. It's the medics. The cop's still taking authority he doesn't have, either by protocol or by law.

eta: ...or by necessity. He's just being a dick, and a criminal dick at that.

et also add:

The one in CA was the same issue - the firefighters were IC. Not the cops. Not CHP. By CA law, the cop was obstructing, and should have been charged that way. Also he failed to follow protocol. But of course, nothing will happen, because cop.

edit on 28-3-2014 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)

Right..it goes to the medic.
I agree the cop should have waited.
In fact it was the ambulance the parked and blocked the street.
Firefighter was there first and had no idea how everyone else would arrive and park.

But if a request was made to please move the truck..which was only a pickup. And the firefighter had passed care to the medics. Then as I said.
Should have ask the medics if he was needed any further. Then its up to the medic to clear him and he can go ahead and move the vehicle.

It could have been handled better by him not being snarky to the officer. And vice versa the officer didn't need to escalate the situation by detaining him..he could have taken him to the side and explained his rationale and it could have been handled without making the patient and bystanders stress more.
Both parties were wrong.
If the FF was in my department. I would have disciplined him for professionalism in the field.
As for LEO..they keep a tight brotherhood..so who knows how this will pan out.
The patient I feel will take it to court.




In the news clip did anyone notice the Chief of police would not look at the anchorman or camera?

reply to post by defcon5


We'll see. Just my 20 years experience as a paramedic/FF2/state fire instructor/AARF2.
I did see the chief of police body language. Seemed off putting..so we will see..

The same thing has been going on here where I live for years. I remember once a volunteer fire fighter was racing to a fire and a cop pulled him over and gave him a ticket. There was another case where a fire truck, on call, ran a red light and was pulled over and ticketed. It seems there's always been a power struggle between cops, fire fighters and paramedics. Do we win? Sadly, no. It just adds more unneeded drama to a situation.

reply to post by Fylgje


So true.
Star 4 U.

Around here the rule has been.
" the king has no right of way "
Meaning even at code 3. We EMS/FIRE/POLICE must slow down and make eye contact with everyone at an intersection.
Only U.S. Postal Service has this right.
They have gone as far as to put governors on all emergency vehicle here.
Makes it a real pain when during a police chase..topping out at 75mph and the Vet or Mustang is doing 120+MPH. Which happens often on I-79.
No fire truck or ambulance needs to go that fast too.

Didn't know sarcasm was illegal.

I sent an email to the chief, mentioning my anger over this matter.

[email protected]

In case you guys want to express your anger.


&


Mayor: Robert Myer
City of New Roads City Hall
211 West Main Street
Post Office Box 280
New Roads, LA 70760
(225) 638-5360 phone
(225) 638-5368 fax

Email

reply to post by StallionDuck


Lol.
Nice! Anxious to hear a reply.
And no. sarcasm is not illegal. Just plane rude on a call. But I feel there is more to the story. And something has been percolating between the departments.

Thanks for addressing this to the chief. Can't wait to hear!

Edit: what you did was more proactive than the rest of us sitting here posting about it.



You get a star...and I can finally have a cup of Shut The Heck Up.

reply to post by Bigburgh


Anytime!

I also emailed the mayor. I might be more proactive on this since I'm originally from LA. I was also a first responder (working also for the fire dept at the time as Aux) for many years where we were usually first on the scene. Then, and even now, police officers will assist but in almost all cases (unless there is potentual for harm, in which they will clear that problem before we could do our job) they will step back and let us do our thing. There is never a parking issue because the person/victim/even suspect is important first. If our vehicles are in someone's way, even if it's an ambulance coming, more often than not, they'll hop inside and move it out of the way themselves.

This leo was just being a %#$&. (apply any 4 letter word here - it'll probably apply)

It's sad to see this kind of division. That's potentual life lost, right there... He's lucky that lady wasn't hurt seriously or he'd be sued or in prison by his actions. I don't recall if there is a "must assist" clause in LA. Hmmm... Wouldn't that be a game changer!

Bigburgh
If the FF was in my department. I would have disciplined him for professionalism in the field.

Well, it sort of depends, I suppose. New onset syncope can often be a sign of arrhythmia or an MI. He might have been sort of preoccupied with the unimportant stuff like making sure the person wasn't dead yet, instead of the real priority of not hurting cop feelings of situational authority. It doesn't seem like a lot of time between the medics getting there and the cop doing his thing, I'm not sure the situation was to the clean-up-and-move-the-vehicles point. I'm REAL sure the cop didn't know.

eta: this looks like a very low traffic residential area. It's not exactly main street or the highway. Was it THAT important to open up the access that the cop HAD to do this to ensure traffic flow and prevent high speed collisions? Because, you know, that's pretty much the only reasons I could see for just HAVING to clear out a street RFN.

As for LEO..they keep a tight brotherhood..so who knows how this will pan out.

A lot of high-fiving and trash talk about whose badges are bigger. That's usually how it goes. Because they got away unscathed again. You heard the guy, no disciplinary action at all.

The patient I feel will take it to court.

Even if they win, it comes out of the city's insurance. No one gets any direct feedback. If it were handled appropriately, and by that I mean charges directed at the officer and really pushed as if the DA's career depended on it, then the next time this comes up the cop would think twice about what's important: situational control and that warm feeling of authority, or what's right for the person on the pavement. But that won't happen, because the oversight mechanism for LEOs is busted from the outset. Hell, even taking the fines for misbehaving LEOs out of the police fund would be a start. You get to drive busted down cars another year because Hank couldn't keep his badge in his pocket, guys. Sorry.

You mean you guys haven't decided to string the officer up from the nearest tree yet for this? How dare he detain the firefighter for 21 minutes.
Off with his head! Quick, someone hold his hand out on the table and then get me a hammer!
Sarcasm off

There is so much one sidedness here I wonder how many of you walk in circles?

There are always at least two sides to a story and since we don't have enough information to decide the fate of this officers career just yet then maybe we should wait for some. Oh but the media doesn't do that. They're in it for the shock value only.

Do you see how my sarcasm may piss some of you off? Kind of like the fireman and the cop? We are only humans here. Stupid decisions happen and yes the officer made one...but so did the fireman.

Remember I did from the beginning say I was being the devils advocate on this.

reply to post by StallionDuck


Thanx for your service in EMS and sending emails.

reply to post by Bedlam


That was well put.
Thanks. Hers a star.

I want to see the officers point of view.
Does not mean I agree with him. I was not there.

The bigger badge is big deal for those with "HERO COMPLEXES".
And I'm embarrassed as a member of the field this happened in front of patient and family.

You're right. It appeared to be at night in a low traffic area. If I was the cop. I would have moved it myself/redirected traffic since he was the lowest level of care on scene.


My argument was trying to point out the LEO's point of view and my FF/MEDIC First Lieutenant supervisor trying to discipline an insubordinate employee.

reply to post by TheLieWeLive


LOL!
Thanks TheLieWeLive......

Actually. There are 3 sides to every story
YOURS
MINE
AND THE TRUTH.

Thanks for "the inside joke post" made my day!

Bigburgh
I want to see the officers point of view.
Does not mean I agree with him. I was not there.

Well, what do we know as fact?

1) the firefighter was there first. The officer was not.
2) the medics were there second. As there wasn't any need to secure the scene for provider safety (no one mentioned gunfire or menacing crowds, did they? no.) the cop was superfluous: he was less medically than the firefighter and definitely less than the medics. He wasn't IC. And the street was a low traffic residential area at night, doesn't seem like any pressing need for traffic control to the point that he should feel the need to interrupt patient care to clear the street for safety.
3) Given that he wasn't needed for traffic control or scene safety, he is the bottom feeder in the situation and should be helping instead of being a putz
4) the only 'unknown' - something happened between the two and the firefighter made 'a sarcastic comment', which prompted the cop to criminally interfere with the firefighter and falsely arrest him. It doesn't seem to be at issue if the firefighter did anything more than make a comment. Or the cop would have charged him with assault or something, right? Has anyone from the chief to the paramedics made any statement that anything else went on? Just a comment the cop didn't like.
5) Kentucky has a law criminally forbidding this behavior
6) You also don't get to punitively detain someone for fun to teach them a lesson. 20 minutes is a bit too long to claim you were doing it for safety during a Terry stop or to determine the guy's ID. It's a false arrest.

If this cop's doing this sort of thing in a situation where the pressure's really not on and he's really got nothing to do but wave cars back, only there weren't any to wave, then how's he behaving at other times? I vote for him being a totally incompetent jackass, and yes, I do think he should be relieved of duty on the basis of his demonstrated behavior. This is who he is. It's how he acts. And he's a jackass. I'd be just fine with him being a sandwich artist at the local Subway. But not so much having any authority. The chief ought to be there with him mopping the floors.

TheLieWeLive
Do you see how my sarcasm may piss some of you off? Kind of like the fireman and the cop? We are only humans here. Stupid decisions happen and yes the officer made one...but so did the fireman.

The fireman doesn't get to falsely arrest someone and interfere with patient care in a criminal manner when he gets his little feelings hurt.

The cop was in the wrong. If you think that it's only human that the cop did this because he got his feelings hurt or someone told him he wasn't in charge at the moment, that's not much of an excuse, it's more of an indictment of the cop. Even in a piddly situation like this he's making stupid decisions. Criminally stupid decisions. Over crap.

It tells you a lot about the guy. What it tells me is that he has no business having any authority at all.

reply to post by Bedlam


They both were in the wrong. The fireman isn't totally innocent here. The paramedics arrived to take his place. He is the first responder and he did his job. Unless he was holding a major artery and keeping the patient from bleeding out I don't see why he was so insistence of hanging around and not moving his vehicle.

The officer is suppose to "Protect and Serve" so clearing the road way was his job. I don't see him interfering with the ladies care asking the fireman to move his truck because the Paramedic was there. If another emergency was to happen up the road what would that person do since the roadway was blocked? Obviously the fireman wouldn't help because he was so attached to this scene.

Should the officer have detained him? No. Should the fireman have moved his truck? Yes.

TheLieWeLive
reply to post by Bedlam

 

They both were in the wrong. The fireman isn't totally innocent here. The paramedics arrived to take his place. He is the first responder and he did his job. Unless he was holding a major artery and keeping the patient from bleeding out I don't see why he was so insistence of hanging around and not moving his vehicle.

There's actually more to this than the paramedics roll up and the fireman stands up and walks off. You've got a period where the guy on scene reports off to the paramedics, and then there's a transition where they get set up and he generally assists. The cop shows up almost immediately behind the paramedics and starts his authority dance. I wouldn't expect the patient to have been handed off that fast. Given that the guy said something to the cop and then the cop behaved in a manner described by the paramedic as 'the least professional conduct I have ever seen', if we two are making assumptions, I'm going to assume that the cop came storming up during the handoff and started trying to talk over them, was told to back off, and went nuts at the challenge to his authority.

The officer is suppose to "Protect and Serve" so clearing the road way was his job. I don't see him interfering with the ladies care asking the fireman to move his truck because the Paramedic was there. If another emergency was to happen up the road what would that person do since the roadway was blocked? Obviously the fireman wouldn't help because he was so attached to this scene.

It's a residential street at night - a few minutes isn't going to matter.

He didn't do so hot a job protecting and serving by interfering with patient care and falsely arresting a fellow public servant. It may be his job, but not at that exact moment. His job at that moment was to not get in the way of the guys who were dealing with the problem. A problem he is not equipped to assess, in a situation he is not fit to judge. Which is why the whole incident command thing is there - to keep cops in their place and out of the way during a fire or rescue. A place, mind you, that does not include telling firemen, paramedics or rescue teams what they will and will not do and when, unless the scene is not secure.

Not that it works, because the cops don't ever get any punitive feedback.

reply to post by Bedlam


All the cop had to do was wait for the right moment and ask for the keys to the truck and park it himself.

It is not bloody rocket science.

If I was the fire man, I would start a civil action for violating his liberty. There is a proper name for that in the US but the correct term escapes me.

P