Alarm on Hill over Russian troop buildup, as NATO general briefs lawmakers

reply to post by kathat

Kathat, I would like to direct your attention to this link. Maybe it will help you better understand the issues at hand.

Link to Story

Enjoy the read.

Darkblade71
reply to post by kathat

 

You have something better to offer?

I am all ears.

I didn't know you were a vulcan.

TechniXcality
reply to post by Mamatus

 

I can't stand you russian sympathizers. The moves putin has made are acts of aggression, an illegal occupation that looks like it will continue to grow. These are the moves of a desperate mad man Putin needs a war to boost his economy. These times are very reminiscent of ww2. I hope not, but if it comes to that, i hope the west plants a big flag in moscow after the soviets defeat. no more 38th parallel bs go all the way and solve this problem once and for all.

How many times do I have to tell you guys that Rambo was a fictional character.
I know how you feel but you need to let it go for your own sake.

reply to post by benrl


The only problem with that is we wouldn't. We may be small... but were insane.

reply to post by Mamatus


Wow your post is great I had to give it a star for such restraint, which you know is sometimes difficult on a forum ! way to go chief! but it is not the soldiers fault when they follow orders.

kathat

I grew up with bombs on the street blowing up and controlled explosions for many decades, funded no less than by the YANKS, and this was in Europe.

I will never trust a yank. I have seen what they do. As far as I am concerened, yanks are not welcome here yet they seem to have to be everywhere. Go home.

I'm sorry you had a horrible experience brought to you by the hands of the "yanks".

That being said, your intolerance of people whom you know nothing about aside from what you think you know, is the reason we are all in the mess to begin with. Stuck in the mindset of invisible barriers separating different people. I hate to break it to you but we are all human first and sovereign to our nation second and only because of conditioning.

So long as there is hate in this world, there will forever be war.

You would think by being a member of ATS and engaging with similar minded AMERICANS, you would see this.

thesaneone
reply to post by kathat

 

So how is it the citizens fault?

Also can you answer my other question, where are you from?

I'm not directing this at you or America, but to answer that question fairly across the board.Every Citizen in the World has failed. Governments are supposed to be elected by the people for the people. We are supposed to Control the Governments, not the Government controling us.We have failed and are collectively all to blame. They are supposed to work for us, yet we work our entire lives to support their lavishish life styles, paid for by us. We, supported it, fed it. We let it become what it is and are ultimately guilty. We even cry and wet our pant's for them during elections.Ah the HOPE of a new leader.

reply to post by Mamatus


The Russian sympathizer thing was more general than not. However you are supporting their rhetoric the people of Ukraine wanted the current government and wanted closer ties to the west, they ousted a president who was committing crimes against his people in protest. This threatened Russia, and Russia invaded and looks like they will continue their westward march. Your interpretation is different because your inadvertently supporting Russia’s interest and sympathizing with them in your attempt to deny ignorance, however I don’t think it's as complex as you may think it is. This boils down to one thing, regardless of your feelings of America or it's western allies the question is do you support it's interest's do you believe that ultimately our lifestyles and freedoms lead to prosperity unmatched in the rest of the world, and Furthermore which side of the line do you stand on? I know where I stand

TechniXcality
reply to post by Mamatus

 

However you are supporting their rhetoric the people of Ukraine wanted the current government and wanted closer ties to the west, they ousted a president who was committing crimes against his people in protest.

No that is western "talking points" aka "propaganda" aka "partial truth" or what Stephen Colbert coined "Truthiness".

Most of the time throughout the Crimea crisis I have defended, but not in a supporting way, Russia's actions in the area, believing that they are being both pro-active and reactive to Western influence and neo-fascist elements in the Ukraine. However, the buildup of Russian troops along the Ukraine border, seemingly more than required for exercises is a matter for thoughtful concern, as it is an intimidating presence. Yet, as Obama states, they are on Russian soil and have every right to be there, and I don't think it serves any purpose to ratchet up the tensions by making miscalculated responses.

As posters you all are free to think and believe as you will, informed by your intelligence, wisdom, prejudices and perhaps misguided discernment on what Putin intends to do. I don't believe Putin intends or wants to invade other parts of the Ukraine, as the backlash in economic, financial, and obviously military areas would be considerable, and I really don't think (with not a little hope) that he would risk such an enterprise without a very good reason.

The recent Crimean referendum looks to have set a precedent for Russian-identifying people in breakaway republics who want to rejoin the mother country, but the Crimea was a very special case with extenuating circumstances, circumstances that do not apply to other regions. I personally would not condone further Russian incursions into either other parts of the Ukraine or other regional satellite countries. Putin has no need to mobilise the Russian military for such issues. If he did send Russian troops into other regions, it would be the first real grave mistake he makes, and he would certainly lose my respect.

The troops along the Ukraine border are obviously there for a reason, and I think they are there as a show of strength and solidarity for Russian-identifying peoples in the Ukraine, and to let the neo-fascist Ukrainians know that if they made a move on Russians in the Ukraine, those troops would be ordered to make surgical incursions to aid those Russian peoples. As long as the Ukrainians behave themselves towards Russians, those troops will remain on Russian soil. That is about as far as I will allow myself to speculate on this issue.

Putin knows that if he sends troops into the Ukraine to protect Russian there, the West equally can respond by sending NATO troops (possibly Polish?) into the Ukraine, which would split the country similar to North and South Korea, and perhaps, that is exactly what the world leaders want, in order to defuse the potential powder keg that the Ukraine seems to be becoming?

Mamatus

TechniXcality
reply to post by Mamatus

 

I can't stand you russian sympathizers.

.................
Everyone keeps forgetting that the A sitting President and ally of Russia was illegally overthrown and run out of his Country in an illegal coup. One does not need to be a Russian sympathizer to see this little bit of logic.

Sadly when talking about Russia some people see only Putin "invading" another Country. The truth is that very wealthy people with ties to big oil and financial interest in privatizing Ukraine's resources invaded weeks before Putin did.

Would it surprise me one bit if Putin invaded all of the Ukraine very soon? No it would not. Nor would it surprise me if Yankovich was reinstalled as President. That is all within the rights of Yankovich until he is legally tossed out of offie.

Yankovich wants his country back and he asked Russia to help him get it. All in all they are being pretty darn non-violent. All that will change when the people of Kiev get violent.

I do not support Russia, I think Putin is a thug and a ego maniac. I can not however ignore the truth.

I can my understanding of the situation is different from your own.

MY understanding is as follows:
1) On 2/22/2014, 328 of 447 members of the parliament voted to remove Viktor Yanukovych, in response to his mishandling the protests and other transgressions.
(note) According to its constitution, 338 MP's must vote to impeach him and it must be reviewed by Ukraine's Constitutional Court. HOWEVER, considering the circumstances and the urgency presented by Euromaiden, it's mute.
2) Yatsenyuk Government becomes the interim government for Ukraine 2/27/2014
(note) Arseniy Petrovych Yatsenyuk becomes the interim Prime Minisiter
(note) Oleksandr Turchynov is the incumbent acting president of Ukraine
(note) Russian government considers this interim government to be illegitimate
3) Russian gunmen (without insignia) storm parliament buildings on 2/27/2014 in Crimea and install a new Prime Minister
(note) Sergey Aksyonov is the Prime Minister installed by the gunmen
(note) Vladimir Konstantinov is the Chairman of the Supreme Council of Crimea before and after the revolution crisis
(note) There's reason to believe some elements of the Crimean Parliament worked with the Russian gunmen
(note) Russians leaders say the invasion of Crimea was to prevent the interim government from entering Crimea and oppressing its population
4) A referendum is held on 3/16/2014 in Crimea for a vote to annex to Russia, but it's considered invalid by most
(note) Note this happened as the direct result of Russian gunmen overtaking parliament buildings in February, thus making it suspect.

Your statements in your post seem at odds with reality. While it's true the legality of the overthrow is questionable, it's also true that 73% of the deputies voted in favor of removing Yanukovych. And all the while widespread protests were putting the country into a crisis and Yanukovych seemed unable to respond appropriately. Your statement that Yanukovych might be reinstated as president is absurd, since he's already earned a warrant for his arrest by Ukraine authorities. If your argument was he might be instated as president of newly independent Crimea, it's more plausible. And your saying Russian might do the same in eastern Ukraine or the rest of Ukraine is equivalent to saying you think Russia is stupid enough to do more than it already has. And what do you mean when you say their actiosn are non-violent? Barricading parliament buildings with gunmen and sending Russian troops out across Crimea against an essentially defenseless population and additionally breaching Ukraine sovereignty are not friendly actions.

Could you please cite evidence for your statement, as follows:

"The truth is that very wealthy people with ties to big oil and financial interest in privatizing Ukraine's resources invaded weeks before Putin did."

edit on 27-3-2014 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)

reply to post by elysiumfire


You seem thoughtful and informed somewhat, but don't you think Russia is exploiting the circumstances to grab the Crimea peninsula? If it truly cared about the Crimea Russian sympathizing population wouldn't it wait until Russian supporters were being gundowned by Ukraine policeman and/or military troops? The fact they've PREEMPTED leaves room for the (plausible) possibility they have NO interest for the people of Crimea, nor any respect for the sovereignty of Ukraine, and only desire to step all over everyone to acquire the peninsula - which they formerly owned several decades ago between 1921-1954.

reply to post by jonnywhite

Johnny, great and thoughtful reply. Wish I had the time to reply in same. My point is that regardless of whether or not 328 voted him out they needed 338 to make it legal. Everything past that point becomes too complicated to deal with right now.

Once Yanko got illegally ousted he asked for help from his friends and they were obliged to help. Will Russia take complete and total advantage of the situation? Most likely they will.

jonnywhite:

...Crimea Russian sympathizing population wouldn't it wait until Russian supporters were being gundowned by Ukraine policeman and/or military troops?

That did indeed happen. Ukrainian neo-fascists snipers shot 4 Russians from the roofs of buildings as the Crimean Russians mounted their own counter-protests. Putin had every right to use the troops already in Crimea to safeguard Russian interests, including Russian peoples.

reply to post by the2ofusr1

very weak position.
just read the news that for the dept support of IMF...Ukraine has to budget all sectors.. inclusive the energy bonus for the peopple...
that could very well turn out to big protest and even an civil war..

they thought to get big money but have to bleed for it ....europeen style
some dissempointment there belly's gonne be tight...

Its comical to me, people compare Russia and America, Russia is a shade of grey lighter than america, america is better than Russia because of X.

I hate it. Its completely and utterly useless to compare these two nations and put one as "better" or more "right", partly because it is IMPOSSIBLE to do this, but mainly because doing this only gives justification and power to these nations who think that they are in the right regardless of the ridiculous decisions and fiascoes that they've got the whole world to in the modern day and in history.

What we NEED as a whole isn't to take sides, it isn't to compare these countries labeling one as better than the other.

What we NEED to do is to unite to give a clear message to both of these countries and in fact all of the nations that act in this way.

We don't want leaders like this that presume themselves "better than thou", we don't want politicians that put our world in jeopardy we don't want a whole nation being screwed over simply to benefit a world elite and further widen the gap between rich and poor.

WE DON'T WANT ANY OF THIS, that's the truth of it and that's the message that we need to give.

kathat
Yet nobody raised much alarms when America started building bases outside America and invading other soverign countries terratories.

I honestly want to see Russia, Iran et al start setting up bases next to America.
I honestly want to see BRICs nations setup their own payment platform to bypass SWIFT.

And honestly, I won't shed a tear if a dirty bomb goes off in America. The only fear is America's retilation dragging the rest of us into it.

Tired of hearing yanks cry 9/11 sympathy in my ears, Ive become deaf to their rants kinda like a car alarm going off in the street, nobody gives a damn about em.

edit on 27-3-2014 by kathat because: (no reason given)

That has got to be the dumbest, most hateful thing that I have ever seen on ATS! We, the American people, do not like what our government is doing, either! But here you are, spouting off at the mouth at all of the U.S. with all your hatred. Just remember who came to your aid less than a century ago, when we had an isolationist mentality, and kept you from speaking German! I'd pity you, if you weren't so fundamentally wrong...

Ohio_Ron

kathat
Yet nobody raised much alarms when America started building bases outside America and invading other soverign countries terratories.

I honestly want to see Russia, Iran et al start setting up bases next to America.
I honestly want to see BRICs nations setup their own payment platform to bypass SWIFT.

And honestly, I won't shed a tear if a dirty bomb goes off in America. The only fear is America's retilation dragging the rest of us into it.

Tired of hearing yanks cry 9/11 sympathy in my ears, Ive become deaf to their rants kinda like a car alarm going off in the street, nobody gives a damn about em.

edit on 27-3-2014 by kathat because: (no reason given)

That has got to be the dumbest, most hateful thing that I have ever seen on ATS! We, the American people, do not like what our government is doing, either! But here you are, spouting off at the mouth at all of the U.S. with all your hatred. Just remember who came to your aid less than a century ago, when we had an isolationist mentality, and kept you from speaking German! I'd pity you, if you weren't so fundamentally wrong...

I was not born centurarys ago. Irrelevent, those were different people then.
Kept me from speaking german? I do speak german at times, so what. I can speak 5 languages, big deal. Typical American arrogant view. Oh they saved the world from speaking german, well in fact Merkel give her speech to Westminster not long ago IN GERMAN. What did you do then? You do realise most people in Europe speak perhaps as many as three, at least TWO languages natively. Unlike most yanks and brits who barely manage one.
I wish you still had the isolationist mentallity.

You act like the world owes you praise and glory to the point of demanding it and when somebody challenges that, well, obviously they are evil.

Talking of German, you do realise the old national salute in America was the same as the Nazi salute. It was called the Bellamy.

Even Merkel compared American NSA to the Stazi. That comming from somebody who grew up with East Germany is a bad sign of how far from the Apple tree America has fallen.

America, oh world saviours. You do realise American citizens, business people et all funded the Provisional IRA. Every penny that was put in some colletion tin in America, funded killings of thousands in Northern Ireland, mainland UK and the Republic of Ireland. I laugh when americans claim their irish ancestry, fact is, irish people north and south laugh at it. Also you claimed to be Britains allies, well why where Americans funding the Provos that were fighting your allies? Americans cannot be trusted, period. Proven time and time again historically.

kathat
And honestly, I won't shed a tear if a dirty bomb goes off in America.