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America: The cursed burnt offering for the age to come.

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posted on Apr, 29 2014 @ 05:55 PM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim

There is a difference between thinking outside of the box, and just making it up as you go along. The gospels are what describe Jesus and His ministry. They are the primary source of information reguarding Jesus, and they unanimously indicate that He died on the cross and was resurrected 3 days later (according to His own words). The Essenes did not believe in resurrection, so why would they aid in perpetuating such an idea. Given His injuries, it is highly unlikely that He survived crucifixion.

Your theory creates too many kinks to logically explain away: the 2-4 ton tomb stone; the 16 royal guards watching the tomb; the royal seal covering the tomb entrance; how could Jesus have been rehabilitated so quickly?

It is more logical to believe that Jesus came to fulfill OT prophecy, than the idea that Jesus plotted to foment and survive His own execution with the help of organizations that were unsympathetic to each other's causes, let alone His own.

How do you go about reconciling these issues?




posted on Apr, 29 2014 @ 06:09 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
The gospels [...] are the primary source of information reguarding Jesus, and they unanimously indicate that He died on the cross and was resurrected 3 days later


No. The gospels don't say that. Rome told you that. Read through the Gospel once again, and understand that Jesus didn't die, he "gave up his breath". Gospel of John has some commentaries/notes (obviously added at a later stage) where different things Jesus said or did were prophetic to "the death he would later honour God with" or similar. Nowhere does it say Jesus actually died on the cross. Only the white lie in Mark 15 of the centurion that saved Jesus' life (and Pilate didn't even believe him, but surrendered). Check it up. However, the Roman Pharicee Saul Paulus repeats over and over that Jesus died. But a lie told twice doesnot make the lie more true. But it works, for people believe and adhere to the printing press and fancy books.
edit on 29-4-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: white lie and typo

edit on 29-4-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: Pilate

edit on 29-4-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: surrendered

edit on 29-4-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: groomed a few words



posted on Apr, 29 2014 @ 07:50 PM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim


Luke 23:46 and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit (pneuma);' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit


Here, Jesus cried in a loud voice. I wouldnt expect that from someone dying of pleural effusion.


John 19:30 when, therefore, Jesus received the vinegar, he said, 'It hath been finished;' and having bowed the head, gave up the spirit (pneuma).


The Greek word for breath and spirit "pneuma". In the context of the above passages, Jesus tells His Father that He commits His spirit (not His respiration) into His Father's hands. Then, Jesus died when he breathed His last breath.


John 20:15 Jesus saith to her, ‘Woman, why dost thou weep? whom dost thou seek;’ she, supposing that he is the gardener...


Jesus was nearly skinned alive from His flogging. So much so that He was not even recognizable as a human being. Yet, just 3 days later, He appeared to the Marys and they didnt recognize Him by His original form nor by His flogging injuries. They thought He was a gardener. How could He be rehabilitated so quickly? He wasnt, He was resurrected from death.

Above all of this, John the baptist called Jesus the Lamb of God. The same title is used repeatedly in the book of Revelation. The spotless lamb was slaughtered as an atoning sacrafice. That means death. There is no logical way to separate Jesus' work from the OT Law. Jesus knew His fate, and He came to fulfill it. He was not rehabilitated, but resurrected. There is a world of difference between the two.



posted on Apr, 29 2014 @ 08:00 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

And your point was?



posted on Apr, 29 2014 @ 08:11 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Above all of this, John the baptist called Jesus the Lamb of God.
If you look at the Greek word here translated as "lamb", it actually means sheep, and is the same word used in the Septuagint in Isaiah 52 in the Suffering Servant story for the phrase, "like a sheep dumb before its shearers".

The same title is used repeatedly in the book of Revelation.
That is in Revelation but it is not clear that it means specifically Jesus.
It likely is talking about the group of people who follow God even to the point of being martyred for it.

The spotless lamb was slaughtered as an atoning sacrifice.
Can you quote a verse from the Old Testament saying that?

That means death.
He had to die in order to be resurrected.



posted on Apr, 29 2014 @ 08:40 PM
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originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

And your point was?


My point is that you're talking out of your arse. You cant address the real issues surrounding Jesus and His ministry, so fabricate sensless garbage to fill in the gaps of your flimsey theory. Jesus came to die for our sins. He was well aware that He was the sacrafice. He did not resist arrest, His true disciples did not deliver Him up to execution, and Christians are not practicing "necromancy" for believing that His death atoned for ALL sins.

I can back all of that up, and I have throughout this thread. You, however, have done nothing but point the finger at Christians and distort the scriptures.
edit on 29-4-2014 by BELIEVERpriest because: typo



posted on Apr, 29 2014 @ 08:57 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

"Luke 23:46 and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit (pneuma);' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit"

Here, Jesus cried in a loud voice. I wouldnt expect that from someone dying of pleural effusion.


Then again, you're not a doctor, are you. Cause if you were you would know that what is discribed in the quote is actually quite typical. You even make loud guttural sounds just breathing when you have to use all of your energy to breathe and talk. Then again, I am talking out of my arse.


"John 19:30 when, therefore, Jesus received the vinegar, he said, 'It hath been finished;' and having bowed the head, gave up the spirit (pneuma)."

The Greek word for breath and spirit "pneuma". In the context of the above passages, Jesus tells His Father that He commits His spirit (not His respiration) into His Father's hands. Then, Jesus died when he breathed His last breath.


As in Hebrew and Norwegian the words for breath and spirit is the same word. And what is the medical term for lung? You guessed it: Pneuma. You see it in words like pneumonia. And Pneumothorax. It means lung, breath, or spirit.


"John 20:15 Jesus saith to her, ‘Woman, why dost thou weep? whom dost thou seek;’ she, supposing that he is the gardener..."

Jesus was nearly skinned alive from His flogging. So much so that He was not even recognizable as a human being. Yet, just 3 days later, He appeared to the Marys and they didnt recognize Him by His original form nor by His flogging injuries. They thought He was a gardener. How could He be rehabilitated so quickly? He wasnt, He was resurrected from death.


I hear you "Christians" claim that a lot. Fact is we know very little about what happened in Annas' basement. He got beaten up. Period. No need for your creative and gory details. Assuming Annas et al followed protocol, Jesus would have received 40 minus 1 lashes. No more. No less.

If I captured Osama while he was still alive, and shaved off his hair and beard, would you recognise him if he came swaggering down Park Avenue in a suit and tie?


Above all of this, John the baptist called Jesus the Lamb of God. The same title is used repeatedly in the book of Revelation. The spotless lamb was slaughtered as an atoning sacrafice. That means death. There is no logical way to separate Jesus' work from the OT Law. Jesus knew His fate, and He came to fulfill it. He was not rehabilitated, but resurrected. There is a world of difference between the two.


It's a free world, believe every last thing you claim here. As for the Lamb of God, it is and has always been the totem of the Kingdom of Judah. Just like the bald eagle is the totem of USA and the lion is the totem of Norway. John basically said Jesus was the messiah, and knowing that meant trouble he used a poetic twist. If I call you a bloody sheep, does that mean anyone could sacrifice you? Jesus was a human. Unfit for sacrifice. He's got toes and a thungbone for god sake!
edit on 29-4-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: flesh to the first bone



posted on Apr, 29 2014 @ 09:08 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60


HELPS Word-studies

286 amnós – a sacrificial lamb (used for sacrifice); a young sheep without blemish (especially a one-year old lamb).




Strong's Concordance

amnos: a lamb Original Word: μνός, ο, Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: amnos Phonetic Spelling: (am-nos') Short Definition:a lamb Definition:a lamb (as a type of innocence, and with sacrificial connotation).



John 1:29 N-NMS GRK: δε μνς το θεο NAS: Behold, the Lamb of God KJV: saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which INT: Behold the Lamb of God

John 1:36 N-NMS GRK: δε μνς το θεο NAS: and said, Behold, the Lamb of God! KJV: he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! INT: Behold the Lamb of God

Acts 8:32 N-NMS GRK: κα ς μνς ναντίον το NAS: TO SLAUGHTER; AND AS A LAMB BEFORE KJV: and like a lamb dumb before INT: and as a lamb before him who

1 Peter 1:19 N-GMS GRK: αματι ς μνο μώμου κα NAS: blood, as of a lamb unblemished KJV: as of a lamb without blemish INT: blood as of a lamb without blemish and


John 1:29. on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, 'Lo, the Lamb of God, who is TAKING AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD;



Exodus 29: 31 “You shall take the ram of ordination and boil its flesh in a holy place. 32 “Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram and the bread that is in the basket, at the doorway of the tent of meeting. 33 “Thus they shall eat those things by which atonement was made at their ordination and consecration; but a layman shall not eat them, because they are holy.



Exodus 29: 38 “Now this is what you shall offer on the altar: two one year old lambs each day, continuously. 39 “The one lamb you shall offer in the morning and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight; 40 and there shall be one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with one-fourth of a hin of beaten oil, and one-fourth of a hin of wine for a drink offering with one lamb. 41 “The other lamb you shall offer at twilight, and shall offer with it the same grain offering and the same drink offering as in the morning, for a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the LORD.



Leviticus 13:14 "Next he shall slaughter the male lamb in the place where they slaughter the sin offering and the burnt offering, at the place of the sanctuary-- for the guilt offering, like the sin offering, belongs to the priest; it is most holy.


Could you please cite a source that calls Jesus the "Sheep of God" rather than Lamb?



posted on Apr, 29 2014 @ 09:29 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60

Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth


There are two different words in use here: lamb ("seh") and sheep ("rachel"). Lamb refers to the slaughter, sheep refers to Jesus silence.


rachel: ewe Original Word:לֵחָר Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: rachel Phonetic Spelling: (raw-kale') Short Definition:ewes



seh: one of a flock, a sheep (or goat) Original Word:הֶׂש Part of Speech: Noun Masculine Transliteration: seh Phonetic Spelling: (seh) Short Definition:sheep


The word "seh" for lamb is the same word used in Gen 22:7 for burnt offering.






edit on 29-4-2014 by BELIEVERpriest because: clarification



posted on Apr, 30 2014 @ 12:00 AM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Could you please cite a source that calls Jesus the "Sheep of God" rather than Lamb?
The main point is that the lamb in the Suffering Servant story is not the one who is slaughtered.
However you want to translated it, you have two animals, one gets sheared, the other gets slaughtered.
The one in Isaiah 53 that matches the one that John the Baptist used is the animal that got sheared.
You see this later at Jesus' trial, where he doesn't launch into a lengthy verbal defense to try to save himself.
You also see the pertinent line from Isaiah brought up in Acts 8:32.
As for the "lamb (or sheep) of God", that is only in John 1 coming from John the Baptist.

edit on 30-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 30 2014 @ 12:05 AM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

There are two different words in use here: lamb ("seh") and sheep ("rachel"). Lamb refers to the slaughter, sheep refers to Jesus silence.
I'm not really concerning myself here with the Hebrew, but the Greek of John 1 and the Septuagint, and the verse in Acts that is from the Septuagint.

I am interested in your biblical reference for the atonement of lamb's blood, if you don't mind.



posted on Apr, 30 2014 @ 04:33 AM
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a reply to: jmdewey60

Like I said earlier the Lamb of God is the totem of the House of David and the kingdom of Judah. It is the Passover lamb. In Egypt they slaughtered sheep and smeared the blood on their doorposts. The blood was a sign that the "Angel of God" should "pass over" (the blood of the lamb atoned for Israel). However these sheep/lambs were not typically sacrifices, but the Passover meal. Eaten every Passover since the Exodus. They don't break any bones of it, and they don't eat the flesh around the lowest vertebrae (to remember when Jacob fought the Angel of God and won, and Jacob was renamed Israel).
edit on 30-4-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: removed "help"



posted on Apr, 30 2014 @ 07:24 AM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim

(the blood of the lamb atoned for Israel)
It was a sign, as if individuals had to flag themselves otherwise the angel of death couldn't tell which houses to avoid.
I don't know that "atoned" would be the proper term to apply there.
It is not as if the angel was somehow temporarily sated with death, having fed on the blood on the door post, that it wanders off in a daze, then recovers from it by the time it gets to the next door.

On the Day of Atonement, the tabernacle was atoned, meaning to be made right.
It is as if the temple mechanism is broken, and then it gets fixed so it can go on for another year.

I don't think that the word atonement, in the Old Testament sense of being able to remove guilt, even exists in the New Testament.
What there is in the New Testament to take the place of atonement is the sense of reconciliation.




edit on 30-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 30 2014 @ 09:23 AM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60

While the LXX is an older manuscript, the Masoretic text reflects a poetic syllable metering that is only found elsewhere in the Greek NT. The Masoretic is mathematically preserved and is therefore superior to the Greek Septuagint. Either way, the word for 'lamb' used by John the baptist means sacraficial lamb.

I already gave you an example in Exodus, Leviticus and in the NT where lambs were offered up for atonement. Go back and re-read my posts.



posted on Apr, 30 2014 @ 12:21 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I dont know why the above post is in the form of a quote. It was intended as a reply. The 4 hour edit window is already closed.



posted on Apr, 30 2014 @ 01:03 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I already gave you an example in Exodus, Leviticus and in the NT where lambs were offered up for atonement. Go back and re-read my posts.
If you know where they are, could you copy and paste them in a new post?
I don't remember seeing those, and I can't even find "atonement" in the New Testament outside of references to the Day if Atonement.

Either way, the word for 'lamb' used by John the baptist means sacrificial lamb.
The Greek word Amnos used in John 1, Acts 8:32, and the Septuagint version of Isaiah 53:7 means Lamb.
Didn't the Hebrew in Isaiah 53:7 reverse lamb and sheep from how it is in the Greek?
I mean, you did notice that, right?
I think you mentioned that in your post.
Earlier I said I wasn't concerned about it but I realize now that I should be, since that was what was behind my original comment about the Suffering Servant story on this thread.
edit on 30-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 30 2014 @ 02:55 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60

Exodus 29:31-33 & 38-41
Leviticus 13:14

John 1:29
1Peter 1:19

Im not aware of the reversal in the Hebrew Isaiah. Either way, Im convinced that Lamb of God refers to atoning sacrafice. Ive never heard of an alternative interpretation that flows with the Bible as a whole.



posted on Apr, 30 2014 @ 05:32 PM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

There are two different words in use here: lamb ("seh") and sheep ("rachel"). Lamb refers to the slaughter, sheep refers to Jesus silence.
I'm not really concerning myself here with the Hebrew, but the Greek of John 1 and the Septuagint, and the verse in Acts that is from the Septuagint.

I am interested in your biblical reference for the atonement of lamb's blood, if you don't mind.





Lev 14:25

And he shall kill the lamb of the trespass offering, and the priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot:


Lev 4:35

And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven..



Rev 12:11

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.



posted on Apr, 30 2014 @ 06:52 PM
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a reply to: Logarock

Thank you for hitting the nail on the head. I was rushed on my last few posts.






posted on Apr, 30 2014 @ 11:43 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Exodus 29:31-33 & 38-41
The entire chapter is dedicated to steps prescribed for the original consecration of the priesthood under Aaron and his sons.
It mentions lambs being sacrificed and burned for a "pleasing aroma".
There is no atonement connected to them.

Leviticus 13:14
This must be a typo.

John 1:29
This is the verse in question, so it is not in itself some sort of proof of something else.
John the Baptist is making some sort of analogy to something.
What is that "something" that he was alluding to?
There needs to be a preexisting known quantity in order for it to be used in an analogy to describe something of a previously unknown quality.
In this case, the unknown "something" was Jesus.
You can after-the-fact make up your own interpretation of what Jesus was, but applying that back does not shed light on the analogy because it does not answer the original question, which is what did the people listening to John the Baptist have come to their minds when they heard those words?
To me, there is no other answer than the one that I proposed, which is the Suffering Servant story of Isaiah 53.

1Peter 1:19
but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

This is making an analogy to describe a level of goodness that Jesus has as a person in how he lived his life.
The purpose of saying this is to encourage the audience to strive for a higher level of purity in their own lives.
It isn't a lecture on atonement. Jesus did die, that is a fact, and his loss of life is described in a way that they understood, as his blood being shed. Not as a deserving criminal or enemy, but as someone with no reason to be seen in a negative light.
Three verses later, Peter describes how they had purified themselves. They did this by demonstrating love for others, which is active obedience.
edit on 1-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



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