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America: The cursed burnt offering for the age to come.

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posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 11:45 AM
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a reply to: disfugured

No, I dont see the "irony". Maybe you could get off your high horse and explain it to me.




posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 11:48 AM
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a reply to: Logarock

Dont waste your time with these trolls. They have hardedned their hearts to the true. They have made the choice to see only what they desire.

God forbid they back their claims up with scripture. Then they might actually learn something.

edit on 22-4-2014 by BELIEVERpriest because: added text



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 12:03 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Logarock

Dont waste your time with these trolls. They have hardedned their hearts to the true. They have made the choice to see only what they desire.


I see the crucifiction as treason, you refute that and defend the crucifiction claiming it was an acceptable sacrifice.


God forbid they back their claims up with scripture. Then they might actually learn something.


You've already doomed yerselves straight to hell with your excellent exegesis into the significance of human sacrifice. Trust me, I can back up everything I say here in more ways than biblical. But it would be rejected by default anyway. Common sense. How about common sense. If it was your own son up there on the cross, would you still call it an acceptable sacrifice?



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 12:32 PM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim


You've already doomed yerselves straight to hell with your excellent exegesis into the significance of human sacrifice.


Yeah, you said all that already. Its called, "opinion". Google it. Its very diferent from "fact".


Trust me, I can back up everything I say here in more ways than biblical. But it would be rejected by default anyway.


Then do it already. You've rejected everything we Christians have said, what exempts you from rejection?


Common sense. How about common sense.


"Common sense" doesnt take scripture out of context. Lets see some interpretations that are supported by context.


If it was your own son up there on the cross, would you still call it an acceptable sacrifice?


If my son chose to die so that the people he loved might live, not only would I accept the sacrifice, I would honor it. See in my family, we love each other enough to die for each other if the situation calls for it. There is no sacrifice greater than laying your life down for the ones you love.


Mat 16:25 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it."



The fact that you would find that sacrifice repulsive sickens me. It makes me question your integrity. Jesus died for us. We didnt kill Him for ourselves. What do you know of love if you wouldnt die for the one you love? Even a wild bear would fight to the death for its cub.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 12:52 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

If it was your own son up there on the cross, would you still call it an acceptable sacrifice?


If my son chose to die so that the people he loved might live, not only would I accept the sacrifice, I would honor it.


OK. How many people did Jesus save by being crucified? Last time I checked, minions of Christians were killed because of him. Not counting all the millions killed in the name of Jesus by the Church and her kings.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 01:22 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Logarock

Dont waste your time with these trolls. They have hardedned their hearts to the true. They have made the choice to see only what they desire.

God forbid they back their claims up with scripture. Then they might actually learn something.



yes and thanks. Felt like casting pearls....creepy. yea on trolls. I understand that mods are not theologians but these are not even discussions about christianity. They are low blow cheep shots at the expense of christians. mods dont understand that calling a christian a necromancer is like the gratuitous us of the "n" word in other places. There is concern for fighting on theological issues but I have yet to see a spirited debate on a christian issue. 99% of fighting has to do with posters taking advantage of a general lack of knowledge about the subject by moderators and passing themselves off as some sort of intellectual challenging established doctrine.
edit on 22-4-2014 by Logarock because: n



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 01:58 PM
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originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

If it was your own son up there on the cross, would you still call it an acceptable sacrifice?


If my son chose to die so that the people he loved might live, not only would I accept the sacrifice, I would honor it.


OK. How many people did Jesus save by being crucified? Last time I checked, minions of Christians were killed because of him. Not counting all the millions killed in the name of Jesus by the Church and her kings.


Now that's an excellent example of moving the goalposts. What's you next amazing trick?

Ah well, I don't know why I'm even bothering. The usual troll response is to accuse us of doing the murdering not of being murdered. I must say that at least is well played.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 02:31 PM
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originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

If it was your own son up there on the cross, would you still call it an acceptable sacrifice?


If my son chose to die so that the people he loved might live, not only would I accept the sacrifice, I would honor it.


OK. How many people did Jesus save by being crucified? Last time I checked, minions of Christians were killed because of him. Not counting all the millions killed in the name of Jesus by the Church and her kings.


Dont play dumb. You know very well the premise of Christianity; that Jesus saved those who believed in Him from eternal condemnation in Hell. Sooner or later all face physical death.

The Roman Catholic Church carried out most of the genocide you speak of. They believe in salvation by works, not by faith in Jesus. The perpetrators of the inquisitions were not representatives of true Christianity anymore that Al Quaida represents all of Islam. Its just downright prejudice to blame all Christians for the crimes of a few.

Dont change the subject that you raised. Either back up your statement like a big boy or take your bigotry elsewhere.

So far you have been acting like a childish brat. And to tell you, its rather embarrassing to watch you make a fool out of yourself.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 02:42 PM
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a reply to: Logarock

You know, I dont mind the threads vearing a little off topic to explore related issues, but this is rediculous. The topic was, 'the Illuminati's religious conspiracy to collapse America in time for the Rapture'. Naturally, that would open a window to the discussion of escatology, but these unfounded claims against Jesus and Christian principles are just outright attacks. How do the mods miss that? I have seen many of your posts removed for things that dont even come close to the things these trolls have said. It seems like ATS operates under bias principles. I dont believe in censorship. Let them say what they want, but dont put a sock in our mouths for refuting their lies.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 03:12 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

There is no sacrifice greater than laying your life down for the ones you love.
"There is no love greater than laying down your life for your friends", is how Jesus put it.
I think that is probably another saying borrowed directly from a Roman Legion motto.

There are two ways to understand the word sacrifice:

1. The act of offering something to a deity in propitiation or homage, especially the ritual slaughter of an animal or a person.

2. To forfeit (one thing) for another thing considered to be of greater value.
www.thefreedictionary.com...



edit on 22-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 04:19 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

If it was your own son up there on the cross, would you still call it an acceptable sacrifice?


If my son chose to die so that the people he loved might live, not only would I accept the sacrifice, I would honor it.


OK. How many people did Jesus save by being crucified? Last time I checked, minions of Christians were killed because of him. Not counting all the millions killed in the name of Jesus by the Church and her kings.


Now that's an excellent example of moving the goalposts. What's you next amazing trick?


Apparently being not impressed, since there was one fella Jesus saved by his crucifiction. A certain Yeshuah bar Abbas, popularily known as Barabbas, heared of him?



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 05:10 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

If it was your own son up there on the cross, would you still call it an acceptable sacrifice?


If my son chose to die so that the people he loved might live, not only would I accept the sacrifice, I would honor it.


OK. How many people did Jesus save by being crucified? Last time I checked, minions of Christians were killed because of him. Not counting all the millions killed in the name of Jesus by the Church and her kings.


Dont play dumb. You know very well the premise of Christianity; that Jesus saved those who believed in Him from eternal condemnation in Hell. Sooner or later all face physical death.


Understand that God is love, and that it was love that saved Jesus' life that dreadful night nearly 2000 years ago. At one point the Roman officer by the cross understand that Jesus is innocent and proclaim he is a son of the gods (i.e. righteous). Seeing he has stopped breathing resulting from a condition any legionaire would know well, and also would know how to treat by profession. Jesus had a ruptured lung possibly from being beaten senseless in Annas basement, that was also why he was silent like a lamb, it's hard to speak when your breath is getting shorter and shorter-- and unless you pierce a hole in the chest and releave the built-up pressure and drain the chest cavity for excess blood and condensated water, the patient will die. Do exactly as the centurion did at Calvary and the chances are good for survival. Restitution: 2-3 days. That is the Truth my friend, and it wasn't even the greatest act of love that was performed there by the crosses. Had it not been for Joshef, the rich man, Jesus' body would have been carried to Gehenna (translated Hell) and cremated. The Arimathean bought Jesus' corpus and hid it in linen he bought at the spot and with his servants they transported Jesus to a cave. Rosemary and a few other women come rushing to assistance with remedies to disinfect and treat wounds, not embalming remedies which would have been the logic choice if Jesus was dead. Later came the Essene healers dressed in their usual white cloathes to help out with the resurrection. Then they cut his hair and beard which had been growing continually all his life, so that few would recognise him.


The Roman Catholic Church carried out most of the genocide you speak of.


Are you saying the Protestants didn't burn witches and heretics and kill off, sterilise or otherwise marginalising minorities and opposing forces? Were the protestant kings kinder than the catholic ones? And you wouldn't have been catholic if you lived in France in the 1200's?


Dont change the subject that you raised.


Sure it's not you who are changing the subject a wee bit here?



posted on Apr, 23 2014 @ 12:50 PM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim


Understand that God is love, and that it was love that saved Jesus' life that dreadful night nearly 2000 years ago. At one point the Roman officer by the cross understand that Jesus is innocent and proclaim he is a son of the gods (i.e. righteous). Seeing he has stopped breathing resulting from a condition any legionaire would know well, and also would know how to treat by profession. Jesus had a ruptured lung possibly from being beaten senseless in Annas basement, that was also why he was silent like a lamb, it's hard to speak when your breath is getting shorter and shorter-- and unless you pierce a hole in the chest and releave the built-up pressure and drain the chest cavity for excess blood and condensated water, the patient will die. Do exactly as the centurion did at Calvary and the chances are good for survival. Restitution: 2-3 days. That is the Truth my friend, and it wasn't even the greatest act of love that was performed there by the crosses. Had it not been for Joshef, the rich man, Jesus' body would have been carried to Gehenna (translated Hell) and cremated. The Arimathean bought Jesus' corpus and hid it in linen he bought at the spot and with his servants they transported Jesus to a cave. Rosemary and a few other women come rushing to assistance with remedies to disinfect and treat wounds, not embalming remedies which would have been the logic choice if Jesus was dead. Later came the Essene healers dressed in their usual white cloathes to help out with the resurrection. Then they cut his hair and beard which had been growing continually all his life, so that few would recognise him.


See, this is exactly what i mean. Nothing but unfounded claims. The Roman guard wasnt trying to save anyone. He was beaking the legs of the living to prevent the crucified from breathing. Jesus was already dead. To verfy His death, the guard pierced His abdominal cavity to witness the clotted blood cells and separated plasma run from the wound.

Jesus was nearly skinned alive beyond the point of recognition as a result of His flogging. If by some chance He was rescued, He would not have been recognizable just 3 days after His crucifixion. Yet when he was resurrected, the only scars He bore were those of the nails and the abdominal piercing.

Then you have the issue of Jesus' alleged rescue party getting past 16 royal guards unnoticed, then rolling back a 2 to 4 ton stone (that had been locked into place by a trench), then replacing the royal Roman seal that was left at the entrance of the tomb to prevent tampering.

Maybe thats what you wished happened, but the Bible gives a very different account than yours. Where is your historical data to back your story up? Is it in one of the hundreds of pseudopigrapha? If it is, the show us.

I could just as easily say that Barney the purple dinosaur rolled the stone back and rescued Jesus with a citric acid and zinc defibulator, but it means nothing without documentation.



posted on Apr, 23 2014 @ 12:55 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest


To verfy His death, the guard pierced His abdominal cavity to witness the clotted blood cells and separated plasma run from the wound.

Ummm, no.

It was blood and water. My husband had an pleural empyema a few years ago, and they stuck a tube in his chest and drained it out. Liters of it. It was not "blood clots and separated plasma". It was watery, yellowish, bloody fluid.

Caused by a broken rib and pneumonia.
He nearly died. I sat there and watched the fluid being drained from his chest.
This silly idea that Jesus was stabbed 'through the heart' is ridiculous.

Otherwise, this thread is all yours, guys. Just don't tell lies.



posted on Apr, 24 2014 @ 09:56 AM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...

Tension pneumothorax is a serious and potentially life-threatening condition that may be caused by traumatic injury [...] In this type of pneumothorax, air enters the chest cavity, but cannot escape. This greatly increased pressure in the pleural space causes the lung to collapse completely, compresses the heart, and pushes the heart and associated blood vessels toward the unaffected side.


en.wikipedia.org...

Hemopneumothorax, or haemopneumothorax, is a medical term describing the combination of two conditions: pneumothorax, or air in the chest cavity, and hemothorax (also called hæmothorax), or blood in the chest cavity. [...] If the chest wall, and thus the pleural space, is punctured, blood, air or both can enter the pleural space. Air/blood rushes into the space in order to equalise the pressure with that of the atmosphere. As a result the fluid is disrupted and the two membranes no longer adhere to each other. When the rib cage moves out, it no longer pulls the lungs with it. Thus the lungs cannot expand, the pressure in the lungs never drops and no air is pulled into the bronchi. Respiration is not possible. The affected lung, which has a great deal of elastic tissue, shrivels in what is referred to as a collapsed lung.



posted on Apr, 24 2014 @ 10:15 AM
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originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest


To verfy His death, the guard pierced His abdominal cavity to witness the clotted blood cells and separated plasma run from the wound.

Ummm, no.

It was blood and water. My husband had an pleural empyema a few years ago, and they stuck a tube in his chest and drained it out. Liters of it. It was not "blood clots and separated plasma". It was watery, yellowish, bloody fluid.

Caused by a broken rib and pneumonia.
He nearly died. I sat there and watched the fluid being drained from his chest.
This silly idea that Jesus was stabbed 'through the heart' is ridiculous.

Otherwise, this thread is all yours, guys. Just don't tell lies.


I can verify that, I have been through similar procedures. It involves piercing your chest with a scalpel and have a drainpipe inserted to suck out all the lovely pink water that forms partly from condensated water in the warm air and blood from the wound in the lung. Most Roman soldiers were trained in treating this condition, untreated it would be the most common cause of death in the battlefield in a time of close combat involving swords, daggers, spears, arrows and other sharp and pointy objects.



posted on Apr, 24 2014 @ 10:57 AM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Ok, Ill acknowledge that it was probable that Jesus was experiencing either pleural effusion, pericardial effusion, or both. But how do you explain the rest of the story? How did Jesus' rescue party get past the guards and roll the tomb stone away unnoticed?

With Jesus so close to death and being so badly disfigured, how could he walk around in such a state, let alone be recognizable to anyone?



posted on Apr, 24 2014 @ 01:09 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
With Jesus so close to death and being so badly disfigured, how could he walk around in such a state?


Well, I've suffered quite a few injuries in my feet, including having both feet severely burned under, still I didn't stop walking, I've also suffered a collapsed lung, and I was out to have a cigarette twice during the night after they stuffed in the drain-tube in a roll chair. I have had a glowing nail come nearly through once after walking across a bonfire of euro-pellets in a rather sorry state with the skin on my foot standing like a tipi, I have sown under left foot without anaestetics. I've walked quite funny from time to time, but you get used to it quite quickly. I'm sure Jesus took it like a man. That's why he is the king.



posted on Apr, 24 2014 @ 02:38 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Ok, Ill acknowledge that it was probable that Jesus was experiencing either pleural effusion, pericardial effusion, or both.
The spear thrust would have been straight to the heart.
The piercing was't to the abdomen, so the pleural effusion may have existed but the wound was not the evidence of it.

Take into consideration that this is found in John which was the later gospel that was probably written to counter criticism of the earlier gospels.
If the first generation of gospel narratives left critics unsure of Jesus' actual death, then this gospel version was to fix that by providing what should be accepted as undeniable proof, that he was stabbed through the heart to where it would have been plain to see that it was no longer beating.

edit on 24-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2014 @ 05:19 AM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Maigret

The verses from Daniel refer to 'setting up' and 'placing' the Abomination of Desolation. Not the abomination of stopping the daily sacrifices, in the Temple, resulting in desolation, as you seem to be suggesting.
That is one version.
Here are some that say it differently,

English Standard Version
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

New American Standard Bible
"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

King James Bible
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

What the Son pointed to in 'when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place' was for those in Judea to flee immediately, stopping for nothing!
Jesus interpreted it to fit the situation.
You have to understand that there is no one definitive version of Daniel.



The Son knew exactly what he was talking about! I've already shown you that. You have to be able to understand Daniel and what he was saying, so that you can understand what he meant. All these different versions of the same verse you've quoted, all basically say the same thing.

It is over the 70 weeks of Daniel that the Temple will be rebuilt, and the covenant the Desolator [aka the Antichrist] will make with the Jews is that they are not obligated to worship him, but may make sacrifices and prayers to God at the newly built Temple. [Because of this, many women will want the surnames of Jewish men in marriage, so as to be able to shield under this covenant and the exemption.]

Mid-week, Biblically, would be Wednesday morning, and this is the time that the Desolator will stand in the holy place [newly built Temple], desecrating it with himself as 'god', which begins the Tribulation period, while his followers trample the outside courtyard of the Temple, and the Two Witnesses preach against his religious lies.

These periods are noted within the Bible as three and a half [prophetic years of 360 days] years, 42 months, [180 weeks] and 1,260 days. At the end of this very specific time period, the Desolator will be destroyed, as decreed in the Bible, but by then he will already have caused massive religious and spiritual desolation for many.



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