America: The cursed burnt offering for the age to come.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

. . . the story of "cast the first stone" was added . . .

I think it was the other way around.
Some scribes left it out.

Well, they all did until it first shows up in a manuscript a few hundred years later.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Well, they all did until it first shows up in a manuscript a few hundred years later.

There are references to that story being in John that predate those.
One of the manuscripts that include it is pretty old, from the fifth century.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Well, they all did until it first shows up in a manuscript a few hundred years later.

There are references to that story being in John that predate those.
One of the manuscripts that include it is pretty old, from the fifth century.

See for yourself. 450 AD is still more than four centuries after the fact. Like I said there are references to books and stories that show there were many schools and traditions in motion and the selection that remains in the canon is highly tailored to be a Roman friendly Pauline testament with slight midraistic character, constantly and closely cross-referenced with the Septuagint making the texts appear more godly than others. Jesus stories were popular frenchise back then. People demanded new seasons with new stories, new secrets and hidden gnosis and curiousities and urban legends, even the slightest rumour, in order to make sense in it all. It is said you could build a city from all the chips that is supposed to be from the cross of Jesus.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: jmdewey60
That is from Acts [U: Paul being a Roman Pharicee] that was written a hundred years after the fact and the writer creates a mythos about Paul that is not based on what Paul himself said.

Edit to add Maigret French, not female. Check.

It's a family nickname... Maigret.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: Maigret

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: Maigret

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

As far as I'm concerned, "the abomonation of desolation" was when Antiochos IV Epiphanes sacrificed a pig in honour of Zeus in the courtyard of the temple. It fulfilled the prophecy. Don't remember exactly when it happened, would have to look it up. first to second century BC unsure.

In the context of what the Son was talking about when he mentioned the 'Abomination of Desolation' as spoken of by Daniel, he was telling his disciples 'the signs of his coming [return] and what would happen at the end of the age', which puts it in a future timeframe.

The human sacrifice aka the crucifiction was the abomination Jesus talked about, and the temple he spoke of was himself. Try telling a Christian that...

Thing is, that the human sacrifice of Jesus turned him into a sacrificial beast, or the antichrist if you like, and there's a great bunch of Christians who only believes in him because of what his supposedly willing sacrifice of himself signifies. Something stinking of necromancy and dark magic really.

Just to clarify my position, in case you've not come across it before: I understand that Jesus is Christian deity, worshipped as God at Easter and Christmas, being God the Son, second person of the Trinity, etc. etc.

Yeshua (his true name), on the other hand, is 'kosher' Jewish High Priest, who will lead in worship of our Creator, on the Sabbath and other Biblically prescribed holy days.

My understanding of the phrase 'abomination of desolation' is a 'false god or idol who causes religious desolation'. 'Nuff said!

And you don't se the idolised Romanized Jesus, the sacrificial beast as the very fulfillment of this? The story told in the Gospel is a very beautiful one and is very seducing, but the truth is that the Church has boiled it down to "guy killed, mission accomplished, all hail the Jesus lamb at the butcher's hands, so they all can see what happens if you mess with us". Jesus didn't want blood sacrifice he served crackers and water and told us to sacrifice that instead of flesh and blood. Exactly where is it you guys fall off here? I mean the guy is begging for mercy in the garden, while you guys keep messing everything up claiming he has to die for your sins! "Paulus says so!"

I believe the view you stated, predominates with those who believe that God prohibited human sacrifices, which He did, but this was to prevent the futile and pagan practises, especially as regards children, amongst mankind!

Just because God prohibits human beings from sacrificing others, does this mean then that this extends to Himself? No, because if He calls for sacrifices, it is in the right circumstances, and for the right reasons!

This is the reason that Yeshua was called the 'Lamb of God', because it was in this capacity that he was sacrificed and it is his Blood which atones for the sins of those who follow him.

The Blood of the Lamb is the same thing you wash your white linen in. WATER. It's what they drank in the end at his wedding, and that is the reason why the Blood of the Lamb is so vital. We need water to survive. You don't serve a Lamb flesh to eat and blood to drink? I may be provincial, but I don't get it, and I'm tired of all this crying for blood and sacrifice. It's disgusting and it's what dooms every living Christian to hell. Mark of the beast right there. Their own story, their own necromantical magic, their own words, one big cross for the lot of them to suck them all straight into oblivion.

Also this is the reason that there are no more animal sacrifices being performed at the Temple. As High Priest, Yeshua is performing all the other Scripturally-required Temple rites for us in the heavenly realms. Do you doubt that God would permit some heathen to destroy His Temple, if He still needed it for any reason?

Psalm 44:22 says, 'Yea, for 'Yea, for Thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.' I believe this verse refers to those Israelites who will undergo the Tribulation, and this is why we are referred to as 'sheep'.

Only those who take up their execution stakes to follow Yeshua literally, will be deemed worthy of the Blood of his sacrifice; so we are to be prepared to be sacrificed too. (It is not this physical realm that is the ultimate goal.)

I'm trying to be brief, so I'm leaving information gaps all over the place here... if you need or want any filler information, then please let me know.

What is it with you Christians and your totems and animal analogies. Jesus was a human being, not a fish, not a lamb, not a lion and not the ibis, they are but primitive totems from a time long gone. For all I care, the Lamb of God is just that. His choice lamb in the flock, gonna be perfect for the Passover dinner. Unfortunately, humans can't handle such trivialities, so they turn Passover into a dreadful display of torture and human sacrifice, complete with disclaimers, a sign made readable in four languages and a timeless mob of idiots screaming "crucify the bastard!" Instead of treating people like sheep and dogs, how about treating eachother as fellow human beings.

Re-read my post carefully, and note the distinctions between the two 'christ's... (I am not a Christian... even jmdewey60 got that.)

originally posted by: Maigret
Re-read my post carefully, and note the distinctions between the two 'christ's... (I am not a Christian...

even jmdewey60 got that.)

Indeed, sorry for mixing you into the stew. If you change your mind and want to follow Christ, go to school and become a field surgeon or study to become a lecturer or an architect. To worship the beast all you need to do is to go to church and believe you go to hell if you don't.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: Maigret
Re-read my post carefully, and note the distinctions between the two 'christ's... (I am not a Christian...

even jmdewey60 got that.)

Indeed, sorry for mixing you into the stew. If you change your mind and want to follow Christ, go to school and become a field surgeon or study to become a lecturer or an architect. To worship the beast all you need to do is to go to church and believe you go to hell if you don't.

Nope, don't go to church either. Any more assumptions flavouring your reading of my posts?

originally posted by: Maigret

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: Maigret
Re-read my post carefully, and note the distinctions between the two 'christ's... (I am not a Christian...

even jmdewey60 got that.)

Indeed, sorry for mixing you into the stew. If you change your mind and want to follow Christ, go to school and become a field surgeon or study to become a lecturer or an architect. To worship the beast all you need to do is to go to church and believe you go to hell if you don't.

Nope, don't go to church either. Any more assumptions flavouring your reading of my posts?

I was being part sarcastic here, the "you" in my reply is the imaginary "you" you use when showing you concepts to relate you to an idea or concept. Phiew. If people want Christ, they should make themselves useful and valuable, and be wise as serpents. Wiser even. Going to church every sunday to worship a mamed carcas and repeatedly recite 2000 year old soap operas and calling it good news is just grotesque and absurd.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: Maigret

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: Maigret
Re-read my post carefully, and note the distinctions between the two 'christ's... (I am not a Christian...

even jmdewey60 got that.)

Indeed, sorry for mixing you into the stew. If you change your mind and want to follow Christ, go to school and become a field surgeon or study to become a lecturer or an architect. To worship the beast all you need to do is to go to church and believe you go to hell if you don't.

Nope, don't go to church either. Any more assumptions flavouring your reading of my posts?

I was being part sarcastic here, the "you" in my reply is the imaginary "you" you use when showing you concepts to relate you to an idea or concept. Phiew. If people want Christ, they should make themselves useful and valuable, and be wise as serpents. Wiser even. Going to church every sunday to worship a mamed carcas and repeatedly recite 2000 year old soap operas and calling it good news is just grotesque and absurd.

Oh, sorry - I get your drift.

originally posted by: Maigret
Oh, sorry - I get your drift.

No, It's on me. Don't mean to be an arse here, but the deep-rooted Christian concept of 'Jesus, the acceptable [human] sacrifice' just doesn't ring well with "Love eachother!" Jesus didn't die for any good reason. He died because most people are idiots and love the drama and turmoil of a proper public hanging. Or a crucifiction, decapitation, burning at the stake or some bleeder being pulled apart by four horses and a pony for that matter. Life is cruel. We have to deal with that, worshipping it isn't the first thing that crosses my mind.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Maigret

My understanding of the phrase 'abomination of desolation' is a 'false god or idol who causes religious desolation'. 'Nuff said!

The abomination of desolation in Daniel is directly connected to the ceasing of the daily sacrifice.
The daily sacrifice happens for a reason, which is that according to the religion, sacrifices must happen every day at the temple.
To not have daily sacrifices would then be an abomination, which would exist if a temple didn't exist, where instead you had desolation.
Mark 13:14 says the abomination that causes desolation, so there is a reinterpretation here that detaches itself from the basic concept in Daniel that makes the "daily" central.
Of course from a Christian point of view, the continuation of the "daily" was not the point in this prophecy of Jesus.
Also, the daily sacrifice went on right up to the end, when the temple caught on fire and everyone in it was killed.
The term used here in Mark seems to rather come from the Book of Maccabees.
My guess is that the thing that Jesus meant was when the Tower Antonia, at one of the corners of the temple square, was garrisoned by Roman troops.

Prior to the First Jewish–Roman War, the Antonia housed some part of the Roman garrison of Jerusalem.
en.wikipedia.org...

The tower was attacked by the rebels who came to Jerusalem, to get the soldiers out of it.
When Titus came, they had to retake the tower from the rebels.

The verses from Daniel refer to 'setting up' and 'placing' the Abomination of Desolation. Not the abomination of stopping the daily sacrifices, in the Temple, resulting in desolation, as you seem to be suggesting.

What the Son pointed to in 'when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place' was for those in Judea to flee immediately, stopping for nothing!

originally posted by: Maigret
What the Son pointed to in 'when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place' was for those in Judea to flee immediately, stopping for nothing!

Templars rising a cross on mount Moria followed by panic in Jerusalem "RUN to the hills! The Christians are coming!".

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: Maigret
What the Son pointed to in 'when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place' was for those in Judea to flee immediately, stopping for nothing!

Templars rising a cross on mount Moria followed by panic in Jerusalem "RUN to the hills! The Christians are coming!".

Actually there is more truth to your statement than you realise. *rofl* But it's for a future time, and it will be something much more ominous than a mere flag! It will be a god! Nothing causes a good dose of desolation more than religious adultery with an idol.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim



The Blood of the Lamb is the same thing you wash your white linen in. WATER. It's what they drank in the end at his wedding, and that is the reason why the Blood of the Lamb is so vital. We need water to survive. You don't serve a Lamb flesh to eat and blood to drink? I may be provincial, but I don't get it, and I'm tired of all this crying for blood and sacrifice. It's disgusting and it's what dooms every living Christian to hell. Mark of the beast right there. Their own story, their own necromantical magic, their own words, one big cross for the lot of them to suck them all straight into oblivion.

Yea sure, that's why Christ Himself said that the true disciples drinks "My blood and eats My flesh". So you are really accusing Jesus, His words, not theirs as you state, blaming Paul. Anyway when Jesus said this some thought He had lost His mind....some like you who cannot grasp the symbolic meaning. A type mentioned by Paul as "ever learning but never able to come to the truth" and "waves without water", "wondering stars" by another.

originally posted by: Maigret

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: Maigret
What the Son pointed to in 'when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place' was for those in Judea to flee immediately, stopping for nothing!

Templars rising a cross on mount Moria followed by panic in Jerusalem "RUN to the hills! The Christians are coming!".

Actually there is more truth to your statement than you realise. *rofl*

I see that as the only truth there is to be found in it. The Pope, aka the false prophet with his two military horns the Templars and the Johanite Maltese, together with whatever the kings of Europe managed to pile up in order to eradicate everything and everyone in their way that was un-Christian in the Promised Land. Basically two hundred years of raping and pillaging in the Holy Land all in the name of God. Wave after wave of murder and gore to avenge the Beast who was slain.

But it's for a future time, and it will be something much more ominous than a mere flag! It will be a god! Nothing causes a good dose of desolation more than religious adultery with an idol.

A fully flogged wooden Jesus with the crown of thorns squeezed down to his ears, nailed up on a rune with blood and cuts everywhere, accompanied the title of this Roman trophy idol: Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews. That, my friend was the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy of the "abomination". When you see the cross risen up in mount Moriah, drop whatever you are carrying and run for the hills. Sieges of Jerusalem with multinational armies surrounding the city, one day it's the Christians, the other day it's the Sarasene. Many of Jesus' prophecies is now history we can read about in the library or on Wikipedia. The age of kings and popes is over, it's time for the Scientist.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim



The Blood of the Lamb is the same thing you wash your white linen in. WATER. It's what they drank in the end at his wedding, and that is the reason why the Blood of the Lamb is so vital. We need water to survive. You don't serve a Lamb flesh to eat and blood to drink? I may be provincial, but I don't get it, and I'm tired of all this crying for blood and sacrifice. It's disgusting and it's what dooms every living Christian to hell. Mark of the beast right there. Their own story, their own necromantical magic, their own words, one big cross for the lot of them to suck them all straight into oblivion.

Yea sure, that's why Christ Himself said that the true disciples drinks "My blood and eats My flesh".

But it wasn't real flesh or real blood, he served substitutes, didn't he? Ke? Or are you implying Jesus served them his left thigh and a pint of his fresh blood? Were they they all cannibals and vampires?

So you are really accusing Jesus, His words, not theirs as you state, blaming Paul. Anyway when Jesus said this some thought He had lost His mind....some like you who cannot grasp the symbolic meaning. A type mentioned by Paul as "ever learning but never able to come to the truth" and "waves without water", "wondering stars" by another.

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth. From Satan, their shepherd. The Book also says "Do not speak in the hearing of a fool, for he will despise the good sense of your words." So I rest my case and leave you to your cannibalism and bloodthirst, your human sacrifices and necromancy. It's a free world apparently. Enjoy your meal.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim



The Blood of the Lamb is the same thing you wash your white linen in. WATER. It's what they drank in the end at his wedding, and that is the reason why the Blood of the Lamb is so vital. We need water to survive. You don't serve a Lamb flesh to eat and blood to drink? I may be provincial, but I don't get it, and I'm tired of all this crying for blood and sacrifice. It's disgusting and it's what dooms every living Christian to hell. Mark of the beast right there. Their own story, their own necromantical magic, their own words, one big cross for the lot of them to suck them all straight into oblivion.

Yea sure, that's why Christ Himself said that the true disciples drinks "My blood and eats My flesh".

But it wasn't real flesh or real blood, he served substitutes, didn't he? Ke? Or are you implying Jesus served them his left thigh and a pint of his fresh blood? Were they they all cannibals and vampires?

Ok so who's eating real flesh and blood anyway in your "nectomantical magic" accusations? You are basically saying that any extrapolation on the matter by christian writers or practitioners of the rite is a foul cannibalistic affair when it all done in the same symbols that Jesus established in the upper room. Was Jesus eating Himself when He took the bread and wine? Your the only one here with ideas about vampires and cannibals.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Going to church every Sunday to worship a maimed carcass and repeatedly recite 2000 year old soap operas and calling it good news is just grotesque and absurd.

There is a right way of going about this business of church.
For one thing, not worshiping a "carcass", but being joyful that God was so kind as to raise him from the dead.
Also to be like Jesus through fellowshipping, as he did with us.

a reply to: Logarock

Thing is you have read it so many times you now have it the other way around. Jesus followed Cain's and Melchizedek's examples and sacrificed bread and wine instead of flesh and blood. You and your fellows sacrifice Jesus, over and over to the extent he is hanging there mamed and utterly tortured nailed up on your wall somewhere, and at the altar in your church, around your neck on a leash and walking and talking in your favorite movie.

You just don't sacrifice humans and nothing good comes out of the ritual murder of Jesus. As an animal, the human being is an unclean one. Sacrificing a human is like sacrificing the mix between a monkey and a pig and thrown in the brain of a dolphin. Most unclean. Smells like old cheese, rotting mud and wet dogs. The leagues of Diablos all dribble and can't wait for the next one. Just like in the old days. Nero's Rome all over again. Right?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Have you ever read any Girard?

en.wikipedia.org...

Girard's fundamental ideas, which he has developed throughout his career and provide the foundation for his thinking, are that desire is mimetic (all of our desires are borrowed from other people), that all conflict originates in mimetic desire (mimetic rivalry), that the scapegoat mechanism is the origin of sacrifice and the foundation of human culture, and religion was necessary in human evolution to control the violence that can come from mimetic rivalry, and that the Bible reveals these ideas and denounces the scapegoat mechanism.

One girardian theologian, Michael Hardin at Preaching Peace writes of the last supper, and that Jesus' whole point is to show us that we are cannibals, that our entire structure of sacrificial religion is a cover for our bloodlust. And the act of remembering his body and blood is to remind ourselves that we are the ones who have blood on our lips.

"34“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36“Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

Abels voice cried out for vengeance, retaliation, blood, the levitical covenant cries for blood and vengeance, justice, eye for an eye.

Heb 12
24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

His blood speaks : Shalom

So I find it interesting the use of bread and wine of the melchizedek priesthood, and placing on it, the blood of the Levitical priesthood.