Russia or Ukraine? Crimean Tatars consider their own vote

reply to post by Xcathdra

Good point about the timing.

And he couldn't explain it, you're right. His hypocrisy and agenda are very transparent. But wouldn't you just love to see him try?

~Lucidity
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Good point about the timing.

And he couldn't explain it, you're right. His hypocrisy and agenda are very transparent. But wouldn't you just love to see him try?

The irony here, is that if this becomes a trend...

NA and EU will be ripped apart.

Russia has a much more stable 'ethnic' claim to a much larger area then anything we do.

If anything, this issue is kind of exposing the hypocrisy of both sides.

reply to post by Xcathdra

So the Tatars want Tartastan province of Ukraine ? The 15% that did vote in the referendum might not agree that they are Ukraine .The present Govt. of Ukraine are wanting one language so I suppose they may loose their own language .The Crimean Govt. wanted to fix a problem the older Govt of Ukraine didn't deal with in that of the Tatars not having land and said they would be providing a solution by giving them their own place as well as representation within the Govt . I wonder if the Nazis will be as accommodating ?.I think not by the sounds of things .

I can sympathize with them about the Russian passport thing .I am Native and can only get a Canadian passport .There is a way I do believe they can work on rectifying that issue if they really want to .As far as calling the land theirs well that is a issue I wish we could get fixed right here in River City Turtle Island ...peace

reply to post by the2ofusr1


If you were given the chance to hold a referendum in Canada, would you take it?

reply to post by peck420

I agree. It should never become a trend that the borders of a sovereign nation can be opportunistically challenged by a bully taking advantage of said sovereign nation while they are attempting to set themselves straight.

peck420
reply to post by the2ofusr1

 

If you were given the chance to hold a referendum in Canada, would you take it?

There is nothing stopping people anywhere in the world holding referendums, good luck enforcing your decision.

Mafias and gangs hold meetings and votes all the time on who owns what terratory in their country.

Whats new here?

peck420
The irony here, is that if this becomes a trend...

NA and EU will be ripped apart.

An interesting point... Do you think European nations would be more agreeable than Russia would when it comes to special status of large groups of ethnic minorities?

peck420
Russia has a much more stable 'ethnic' claim to a much larger area then anything we do.

If anything, this issue is kind of exposing the hypocrisy of both sides.

CIA world fact book - Ethnic breakdown - Russia

Russian 77.7%, Tatar 3.7%, Ukrainian 1.4%, Bashkir 1.1%, Chuvash 1%, Chechen 1%, other 10.2%, unspecified 3.9% (2010 est.)

I was trying to find the map that showed the breakdown...

Is it they are more stable or is it possible that it seems stable because of the size of Russia and the remoteness when going east? Its possible to have a large ethnic group concentrated in central / east Russia that appears stable because there is not a direct conflict between those ethnic groups and the local government?

Xcathdra
An interesting point... Do you think European nations would be more agreeable than Russia would when it comes to special status of large groups of ethnic minorities?

No, they won't. Neither will my country (Canada) or yours (USA).

Is it they are more stable or is it possible that it seems stable because of the size of Russia and the remoteness when going east? Its possible to have a large ethnic group concentrated in central / east Russia that appears stable because there is not a direct conflict between those ethnic groups and the local government?

They are more stable today due to the brutality of their past. The majority of counter claimants are long dead.

peck420
reply to post by the2ofusr1

 

If you were given the chance to hold a referendum in Canada, would you take it?

Quebec Canada sovereignty movement.

You keep trying to give examples of a similar situation involving western nations. I am getting the impression you think the government of those countries prohibit groups of people from holding a referendum.

Have you considered the possibility that the ethnic groups in those countries are ok with their specific needs coexisting with the government?

Just because they are not rioting to hold a referendum does not mean they are being suppressed by the government of those nations.

yes? no?

reply to post by peck420


Sure but I highly doubt our colonial masters would give us much more then some reserve in a isolated place .They have already pushed us off the choice spots ant taken them as their own .Plus the political framework they would also would impose on us wouldn't allow us to be very autonomous . I think there was a large tribe that wanted to do business with Iran awhile back but the Feds. stepped in and put a stop to it ...peace

Xcathdra
Quebec Canada sovereignty movement.

Be prepared to see a very different side of the Canadian government if that referendum (we are do for another soon) actually passes.

It is one thing to hold a referendum, a completely different thing to honour the outcome.

Have you considered the possibility that the ethnic groups in those countries are ok with their specific needs coexisting with the government?

Just because they are not rioting to hold a referendum does not mean they are being suppressed by the government of those nations.

yes? no?

See the post directly below yours. I don't think First Nations would hesitate if given the chance.

peck420
No, they won't. Neither will my country (Canada) or yours (USA).

The United Kingdom as well as the US recognize certain aspects of Sharia law in their judicial systems. 1st nations in Alaska have their own legal system that deals with punishment that would not be allowed in a Federal / State court.

Puerto Rico has held several referendums to determine if they want to change their status with the US - Independent / as is / statehood / commonwealth.

This next go around is actually being funded by the federal government.

peck420
They are more stable today due to the brutality of their past. The majority of counter claimants are long dead.

This comment, imo, undermines your statement about stability. Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying, you stated Russia ethnic minorities are more stable because they were eventually conquered and whipped into submission.

Generally, stability does not come from oppression.

Or am I not understanding what you are saying?

reply to post by Xcathdra

Do you think Tartars should be allowed to hold their own referendum and to from an independent nation on land in Crimea?

I see propaganda is alive and well.

By asking this question you therefore silently aproved that holding the referendum in Crimea was a legitimate move by Crimean authorities.

In other words, you shot your self in the foot.
Thank you.

Xcathdra
The United Kingdom as well as the US recognize certain aspects of Sharia law in their judicial systems. 1st nations in Alaska have their own legal system that deals with punishment that would not be allowed in a Federal / State court.

Puerto Rico has held several referendums to determine if they want to change their status with the US - Independent / as is / statehood / commonwealth.

This next go around is actually being funded by the federal government.

This is a far cry from allowing and upholding a referendum that will break your country apart...as Crimea to Ukraine.

This comment, imo, undermines your statement about stability. Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying, you stated Russia ethnic minorities are more stable because they were eventually conquered and whipped into submission.

Generally, stability does not come from oppression.

Or am I not understanding what you are saying?

No, I am saying that Russia has a much more stable ethnic Russian population because they killed most of the ethnic minorities in the past.

peck420
Be prepared to see a very different side of the Canadian government if that referendum (we are do for another soon) actually passes.

It is one thing to hold a referendum, a completely different thing to honour the outcome.

A bit premature to assume how the Canadian government would react. Secondly, if they would not honor it then why allow them to have the referendum at all? Unless you think Canada would behave in the same manner as Russia with the Crimean vote?

What would happen if the larger ethnic groups inside Russia wanted to hold a referendum and split from Russia? would Putin allow it?

I keep bringing this up because Putin's justifications are not supported by his actions. I truly believe the referendum self determination vibe he gives off is an excuse to justify taking Crimea. I want putin to put his money where his mouth is and demonstrate he is serious by allowing those groups within Russia the same "opportunity" he applied to Crimea / Ukraine.

peck420
See the post directly below yours. I don't think First Nations would hesitate if given the chance.

That's just it though, they have that choice. Inside the US are over 100 sovereign Indian nations. They deal directly with the Federal government (BIA is the interface) and they set the terms for dealing with State governments.

Would that type of setup work in Crimea and why?

zilebeliveunknown
I see propaganda is alive and well.

By asking this question you therefore silently aproved that holding the referendum in Crimea was a legitimate move by Crimean authorities.

In other words, you shot your self in the foot.
Thank you.

Read it again...

The question is, using Putin's position on self determination of an people, why would this not be acceptable for the Tartars to hold their own referendum and be separate / autonomous under Putin?

Secondly you really need to stop putting words in peoples mouth. My comments have come nowhere close to the accusation you made.

Keep it on topic please..

peck420
This is a far cry from allowing and upholding a referendum that will break your country apart...as Crimea to Ukraine.

Why was the referendum in Crimea held then if its split damages both?

Again - 1st nation tribes are sovereign inside the US. The "split" already occurred some time ago. Right now a lot of states have been discussing leaving the Union. There have been legal debates back and forth yet nothing has gone farther than the discussion stage.

There is a reason the states have their own military units and it goes directly to the heart of our 2nd amendment.

peck420
No, I am saying that Russia has a much more stable ethnic Russian population because they killed most of the ethnic minorities in the past.

Ok... I am assuming Ethnic Russian in this application means all Russians? Or just to those who are in fact Ethnic Russian. Chechnya is only about 2% Russian and several areas in the interior / east (Russia) have similar stats, where indigenous people do not consider themselves Russian.

I'd vote to go back to Kievan Rus borders. Why stop in the 20th century?

And based on a long, long history, I'd say that these Tartars, barring going back to their Turkic roots, might stand a better shot at staying right where they are (well were...in Ukraine) than any of the other alternatives being discussed, including the EU.

Xcathdra
A bit premature to assume how the Canadian government would react. Secondly, if they would not honor it then why allow them to have the referendum at all? Unless you think Canada would behave in the same manner as Russia with the Crimean vote?

I think Canada will show an ugly side far worse then what has been seen in Crimea. As for why they allowed it to take place? Confidence in the final outcome and the ability to placate the movement for the time being...our government plays very short sighted games, if you have yet to notice.

I know it is a complete aside, but if Quebec ever has a successful referendum, I do believe Canada's first move is to retain any and all of First Nations land as Canadian...not much of Quebec left after that...and a whole lot of angry people just waiting for a spark to ignite.

What would happen if the larger ethnic groups inside Russia wanted to hold a referendum and split from Russia? would Putin allow it?

I keep bringing this up because Putin's justifications are not supported by his actions. I truly believe the referendum self determination vibe he gives off is an excuse to justify taking Crimea. I want putin to put his money where his mouth is and demonstrate he is serious by allowing those groups within Russia the same "opportunity" he applied to Crimea / Ukraine.

If he can manage to force EU and NA to do the same...I think he would. He would lose far less of Russia then any other country. The ethnic minorities in Russia are most prevalent in the fringes of the Russian borders and desolate land.

That's just it though, they have that choice. Inside the US are over 100 sovereign Indian nations. They deal directly with the Federal government (BIA is the interface) and they set the terms for dealing with State governments.

You don't think they are going to be happy with just the reserves they were confined to do you? I don't think so. They will want at least enough land to viably survive on and as much of their original areas as possible. I don't know about the US, but for Canada that is the majority of Canada's land mass.

Would that type of setup work in Crimea and why?

I doubt it based on the effect of hard feelings and confined spaces. Crimea is just not that big, so even if each ethnicity got their own area, they are so close that it would be very easy for conflict to erupt among them.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Star for your comments. The Russian shills on this site will not allow logic to be part of the discussion. Trying to reason with them is like arguing with a drunk. they listen, but do not hear. Then they end up blaming the United States for anything that they can.