Dogs showing guilt/shame for "bad" behavior

Kind of a tough call on this, i read an article that says dogs don't show shame at all.. Dogs are pretty smart, I wouldn't put it past them being a manipulative bunch of creatures.

“I think they know how to placate us with this sad puppy-dog look that makes us think they’re ashamed of what they’ve done. My guess is that their thinking is: `Oh man, my owner is super mad about something, but I don’t know what, but he seems to calm down when I give him the sad face, so let’s try that again,’” she said.

www.pbs.org...

reply to post by immoralist

immoralist
Being an owner of 3 fine canines myself Im of the persuasion the say that dogs absolutely feel guilt/shame. Ive read a lot of articles and heard programs where scientists say that the dogs dont actually feel it and they are just fearfully reacting to their owners body language/tone of voice, but I know from personal anecdotal experience at least that when 3 dogs are sitting there, I can always tell which one is the culprit because he's acting guilty as hell. Scientists rightly suffer from an abundance of caution so maybe they are just reticent to admit this without hard data.

Scientists aren't reluctant to admit it without hard data. They're reluctant to admit it because admitting that animals feel emotion would throw a serious wrench in their standard operating procedure of abusing and torturing animals of all persuasions in the interests of scientific experiments.

Seriously, could you still keep torturing/killing/dissecting chimps and rabbits and rats and dogs once you openly admitted that they feel the exact same emotions as the rest of us? Most moral and sane people wouldn't be able to stand the guilt.

reply to post by JonButtonIII


fair enough, considering the medical/industrial ethical implications to censoring scientific results is absolutely a valid point. Good looking out sir.

reply to post by ChaosComplex


Reading this thread is so fitting given the stunt one of my four dogs pulled this morning and it was no question as to who did it since he was the only one accidently left indoors.

I took my son to the bus stop and was gone no more than 10 minutes. Walked through the door and could immediately tell that he had done something wrong just by the way he was walking towards me. I turned the corner into the kitchen and saw the biggest mess any of my dogs have EVER made.

My husband left a large bag of trash in the corner and during the 10 minutes I was gone...this dog tore through the entire bag and had it scattered absolutely everywhere. It looked like a tornado tore through my kitchen....no joke.

The funny thing about it....as soon as I said "oh my god!" he hightailed it to the front door and just sat there with his tail tucked and his head down in shame knowing he was about to be put outside as punishment.

reply to post by ChaosComplex


Well I hadn't planned on logging in today..until now. NOTHING in my life has consistently given me a feeling of complete and utter love like a dog. Thank you so much.
Sincerely,
Bachrk
Mom to: Sumo, the Italian Mastiff and Oliver Batman, the crabby French Bulldog

give walking give walking give walking www.youtube.com...

reply to post by WeAre0ne


No i'm afraid it's you that lacks the empathy (for the dogs in some..not all of these cute and oh so funny videos) and i'd say it's somewhat of a personality disorder to think that you can sum somebody up so completely without knowing them at all or knowing what they may have been through in their life. As far as which dogs i prefer..well how about Wolfhounds..Border Collies ..Kelpies..i don't think you will find them sitting at the back of the class...the point of my post is simple..don't amuse youself and your friends by filming your dog's prolonged anguish for doing something it did for a reason...the dog most likely doesn't connect what it did to your body language and tone ..if you don't want it to chew or eat something then train it not to...better still have a professional train YOU to train the dog not to be...."naughty"

reply to post by arbie


Forgot to mention ..i get it that a dog may well be able to learn a thousand words..hell..maybe 10,000...i know there have been children enter university at 9 years of age...all good...but i don't need to see bears riding bicycles or elephants standing on their back legs while balancing a ball on their trunk to show me how intelligent and athletic they can be.
Sorry to have offended anybody..i know everyone reading this thread is probably a dog lover ...over and out...woof

eXia7
Kind of a tough call on this, i read an article that says dogs don't show shame at all.. Dogs are pretty smart, I wouldn't put it past them being a manipulative bunch of creatures.

“I think they know how to placate us with this sad puppy-dog look that makes us think they’re ashamed of what they’ve done. My guess is that their thinking is: `Oh man, my owner is super mad about something, but I don’t know what, but he seems to calm down when I give him the sad face, so let’s try that again,’” she said.

www.pbs.org...

Yes they train us, their supposed masters as much as humans can train them.

I think the example about the dog making the face after the owner gets upset is realistic however when your dog makes these expressions before you know he or she has done something wrong and from the expression of your animal you suspect they have done something so you go searching only to find, Aha, your dog has chewed his new bed apart or whatever.


VoidHawks first post on page 1, second post right after the OP gives a great example.

My first reveal of complex cognitive dog behavior was my first mutt. She was extra hairy-sheddy and thus not allowed in our overly fancy living room (in which no real living went on... just a static space for infrequent guests).

We were coming up our driveway after an errand and the whole family saw her framed in the living room bay window, sticking her head through the drapery to see us, and then we could see her joy turn to anxiety as she realized where she was... the comfy but forbidden living room... and she ducked back behind the drapes.

When we came in, seconds later, she was curled on her dog bed in the utility room, feigning sleep. She raised her head and yawned and slowly thumped her tail in her usual, sleepy greeting.

She had raced back to her bed and pretended sleep... or lied... very complex cognitive behavior. All my subsequent doggies showed similar cognitive deepness.

Although Arpie's comment about being careful with them has some validity. They are not human, though they know us well and learn about us individually, they cannot be expected to comprehend our language or nuances all the time.

eXia7
Kind of a tough call on this, i read an article that says dogs don't show shame at all.. Dogs are pretty smart, I wouldn't put it past them being a manipulative bunch of creatures.

“I think they know how to placate us with this sad puppy-dog look that makes us think they’re ashamed of what they’ve done. My guess is that their thinking is: `Oh man, my owner is super mad about something, but I don’t know what, but he seems to calm down when I give him the sad face, so let’s try that again,’” she said.

www.pbs.org...

THere is validity to that, except dogs also seem to show shame before you find that they have messed up.

I can walk in teh back door (how i enter/exit my house), look at the dogs, and know immediately if one has been bad, and which one it is. I can then go looking for the aforementioned bad act. My dogs are different sizes. The poop in the floor usually matches the size of the dog acting ashamed.

Now, is this remorse? I can't say that for sure, but believe it to be so. It could just as easily be that they leverage cute puppy dog eyes as a way of saying "Im sorry" without ever meaning it.

Dogs have a tendency to lack self control when their "master" is gone. But they can be trained.

The real question isn't whether or not they have emotions, since emotions are simply neurochemical response, and they have these same neurochemicals. The question is how deep their ability for abstract though goes. THey aren't problem solvers, typically.

There was a recent study out of Texas A&M on dogs and guilt/shame, according to them, it's just an act.

Link

Several weeks ago I left a bag of trash out to answer a phone call. I came back to find this,


Suspect #1


Suspect #2


I call bs, Texas A&M.

reply to post by mikeone718


i love this post.

The chihuahua....he'll never play poker.

reply to post by mikeone718


Your pic of suspect #2 says it all to me. Yep, hiding under the table absolves me of all guilt...

You have a couple of cuties there Mike...

Des

reply to post by arbie


You didn't offend anyone, because we all know you are full of crap.

Your reply to me is all that is needed to know you are detached.

With that said, here are some interesting reads about dogs understanding and reacting to emotions, and vocal emotions, and having emotions.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

www.wired.com...

www.livescience.com...

guardianlv.com...

Destinyone
reply to post by mikeone718

 

Your pic of suspect #2 says it all to me. Yep, hiding under the table absolves me of all guilt...

You have a couple of cuties there Mike...

Des

Thanks! The big one is Sonny, the terror from Tijuana is chichi

reply to post by ChaosComplex


Well, we have had dogs, and they showed such a response when they knew they'd done something bad. I can't imagine why anyone thinks they don't! Just because they aren't people, that doesn't mean they can't have emotions. How often do we hear an animal described as "bad-tempered"?

Our Black Lab and Beagle do most of these lol. They are pretty well behaved, but every once and awhile......

Empty mouth of liquids before clicking on link...

35 Of The Most Hilarious Pet Confessions

blazepress.com...

Des...

reply to post by mikeone718


I agree with your observation, and we see the same thing in the video. Two dogs standing side by side, both at least adolescent or adult in age, and we see the dog on the left clearly able to look their master in the eyes while the other is not. If the dogs didn't really know why they were in trouble and didn't understand the consequences of their actions then both dogs should fake shame just to be on the safe side.