Skeptics: Do you want to be alone in the Universe?

Harte

game over man
reply to post by Ectoplasm8

 

Are you 100% sure you have proof the Egyptians documented how they built the Great Pyramids of Giza?

He didn't claim that.

What you just did is the equivalent of me saying to you "Are you sure that the UFO you captured in your backyard and keep in your garage is not a rabbit?"

What was shown, and quite well known, was typical Egyptian construction techniques. These techniques are completely capable of resulting in the construction of the Great Pyramid.

If you flip a coin, there's simply no way for me to really know the result of your coin flip - even if you tell me - unless I witness it myself.

That said, I do know that you got either heads or tails.

Harte

This is the rude stuff I'm talking about. You or the poster could have answered these are hieroglyphs of Egyptian technology. This is the only information we have to determine construction of the pyramids.

A polite reply of along those lines. All the other jibber jabber is useless information/ passive aggressive insults. The dialogue doesn't require the negativity. Thank you

You could have politely answered

game over man
reply to post by conundrummer

 

Well I'm scared of being bullied by the know it alls, so yes it's required.

How does fear of being bullied lead you to that conclusion?

reply to post by conundrummer


The way I replied back was to diffuse the attacking tone going on between the posts.

How can you imagine the unimaginable? You can't.

We can't imagine what aliens could be like.

But we can guess.

The information we have about all life on Earth is the source to make these guesses.

We look at environments other than earth and look for signs of life in the best possible places.

Then we guess what that life may be like. We have to guess because we cannot look close enough.

You discount areas you don't think life could exist. So you don't look there.

We have probable places to look:

Solar system

Exo planets

Not as probable:

Our past

Our skies

game over man
reply to post by Harte

 

What?

That doesn't make sense.

I believe an observer plays an important role for existence. You don't. Cool.

Out of interest, based on your comment and this is only for me to understand, not a trick, do you believe if a tree falls in a forest and there is no-one there to hear it then it doesn't make a sound?

reply to post by uncommitted


Yes great point and great question. However in that question we know the tree falls and when trees fall they make a noise.

Things we can't observe like the future or prior to the big bang is where the mystery lies.

If x falls in the woods does it make a noise? Well we have never observed x before so we don't know what it is or anything about it.

We just observed an asteroid with a ring around it, until then we didn't know it existed.

You have to observe things in order for them to exist.

Right now, we have never observed alien life, so for now, we're alone in the universe.

game over man
reply to post by Harte

 

What?

That doesn't make sense.

I believe an observer plays an important role for existence. You don't. Cool.

How does that work, exactly? Is it human observation, or is it animal observation, too. For that matter, is existence affected by mosquito observation?

And what about the early universe? (back to when there were first generation stars only, with hydrogen, helium, and lithium being the only elements that existed in that early universe)? If no organisms were around to be observers, how did the this affect existence?

And if existence was suddenly affected by the first genesis of life in the universe (a couple of rudimentary microbes that could be called the first "life"), how exactly did the observation of the universe by those microbes affect existence and why?

reply to post by Box of Rain


You answered your own question. Research observation.

I'm sure there are good threads on ATS about the subject.

It's really thought provoking.

game over man
reply to post by uncommitted

 

Yes great point and great question. However in that question we know the tree falls and when trees fall they make a noise.

Things we can't observe like the future or prior to the big bang is where the mystery lies.

If x falls in the woods does it make a noise? Well we have never observed x before so we don't know what it is or anything about it.

We just observed an asteroid with a ring around it, until then we didn't know it existed.

You have to observe things in order for them to exist.

Right now, we have never observed alien life, so for now, we're alone in the universe.

Thanks for your response. Not sure I agree completely, I don't think it's that binary. What we haven't observed simply means we haven't observed and cannot state as proof. For obvious reasons we didn't observe the big bang, but current thinking is that it is the most likely explanation for the origin of this universe.

Microbial life may exist in this solar system, again recent evidence shows this possibility is growing even more enticing -

www.bbc.co.uk...

This is exciting news, although of course it's likely that it won't be directly observed first hand in at least our lifetimes but possibly - just possibly it would prove life exists elsewhere - but that isn't really the point. Most skeptics on ATS wouldn't doubt the possibility of life elsewhere, they are more skeptical that it's been visiting the Earth on a regular basis, I think that's the key difference.

game over man
reply to post by Box of Rain

 

You answered your own question. Research observation.

I'm sure there are good threads on ATS about the subject.

It's really thought provoking.

No -- my questions were not answered, and those questions were directed to you.

I already have ideas about how observation and its relationship to the quantum world, but I was asking you to clarify your position.

I get how measurement can affect the world, such as the way the act of measuring the velocity or direction of a sub-atomic particle affects the velocity and direction of that particle. However, I don't really think that human knowledge or human decisions affect existence.


...For example, in an earlier post you said:

game over man
We just observed an asteroid with a ring around it, until then we didn't know it existed.

You have to observe things in order for them to exist.

Personally, I don't think the universe/existence gives a damn if we hadn't observed that asteroid before. It still existed, whether we little puny humans are around to notice its existence or not. In fact, that asteroid existed almost certainly before there was any life on Earth at all.

Let's stipulate that there is a planet orbiting a star right now in some galaxy halfway across the known universe. Let's also stipulate that the planet is a little older than Earth, and say its been there for 6 billion years. Prior to the existence of humans, that planet was there. Prior to the existence of life on Earth, that planet was there. Prior to the existence of Earth itself (and our entire solar system), that planet was there.

I'm not so sure what human observation/human knowledge about that planet has anything to do with its existence. Why are humans so important in you view of existence? What makes us anything more that just an infinitesimally small small part of existence (small in both space AND time), rather than being something more?

If we humans go extinct before we ever learned of the existence of that planet, that planet would still have existed, and would not have been affected at all by the human ignorance of its existence.

reply to post by uncommitted


How do you know something exists without observation? You cannot predict the future! There's no argument here folks...

Edit: who will win the NBA championship this year? Please provide all the statistics of the game, the commentary, and where everyone is sitting, wearing to the game, and the expressions on their face, etc...

reply to post by Box of Rain


If humans did not exist in our universe, and this conversation didn't exist, why would anything you are talking about matter?

Do you think I'm suggesting things magically appear into existence when we observe them for the first time?

Edit to add: you're basically arguing we know everything about aliens before we observe them.

game over man
reply to post by Box of Rain

 

If humans did not exist in our universe, and this conversation didn't exist, why would anything you are talking about matter?

Do you think I'm suggesting things magically appear into existence when we observe them for the first time?

What I am talking about doesn't matter, not to the universe and existence. That's my point.

If humans never came into being, some planet of the other side of the universe would not care. If there is a civilization on that planet that is older than humans, the creatures on that planet would be as blissfully unaware of the fact that humans never existed as much as they would by being blissfully unaware if humans did exist, but unbeknownst to them.

The daily lives (and existence) of those aliens would not be affected by either the knowledge or ignorance of that existence.

I suppose from a metaphysical "human-centric" idea of our existence, there is something to be said here, but that metaphysical "human-centric" idea of existence is simply a human construct and is NOT the reality of existence.

The universe really doesn't care that much if humans know anything about it, and in fact it wouldn't be affected if humans never existed. The wheels of existence would go on and on, regardless of human thought on the subject.

reply to post by Box of Rain


We only know the universe operates this way because we observed it!

2nd

game over man
reply to post by Box of Rain

 

We only know the universe operates this way because we observed it!

2nd

I don't think the alien on the other side of the universe cares if humans observe the universe.
We have virtually[*] no affect that alien's day-to-day existence. I don't think an unknown asteroid in the Kuyper Belt cares if humans suddenly discover it; that asteroid' was just doing its thing for 4.5 billion years before we discovered, and will continue to simply do its thing after we discover it. Its existence remains as unchanged by the human discovery as it would have been if humans did not discover it.

Existence is an absolute that is unrelated to human knowledge. Existence really doesn't have that much to do with humans. We are only a tiny, tiny, tiny (almost non-existent) part of existence in general.


* note: I say "virtually no affect" only because our presence obviously has a local affect, and that local affect that may have some infinitesimally small affect on something on the other side of the universe -- sort of like the "Butterfly Effect", but on an even much, much, much smaller scale).

game over man
reply to post by uncommitted

 

How do you know something exists without observation? You cannot predict the future! There's no argument here folks...

Edit: who will win the NBA championship this year? Please provide all the statistics of the game, the commentary, and where everyone is sitting, wearing to the game, and the expressions on their face, etc...

edit on 4-4-2014 by game over man because: (no reason given)

It's not predicting the future though, that's the thing. For the NBA I have no idea, I'm British and don't follow. In our Football Premier League, I can make assumptions as to who is most likely to, but then I could be surprised. That level of assumption is something that I am comfortable with, you are going a little further into specifics which is with respect pointless unless you wish to do so as an exercise in imagination.

uncommitted

game over man
reply to post by uncommitted

 

How do you know something exists without observation? You cannot predict the future! There's no argument here folks...

Edit: who will win the NBA championship this year? Please provide all the statistics of the game, the commentary, and where everyone is sitting, wearing to the game, and the expressions on their face, etc...

edit on 4-4-2014 by game over man because: (no reason given)

It's not predicting the future though, that's the thing. For the NBA I have no idea, I'm British and don't follow. In our Football Premier League, I can make assumptions as to who is most likely to, but then I could be surprised. That level of assumption is something that I am comfortable with, you are going a little further into specifics which is with respect pointless unless you wish to do so as an exercise in imagination.

So your assumptions about the EPL championships can the same be said about alien life? The same type of pondering about future events, i.e. what is most likely the outcome?

Box of Rain

game over man
reply to post by Box of Rain

 

We only know the universe operates this way because we observed it!

2nd

I don't think the alien on the other side of the universe cares if humans observe the universe.
We have virtually[*] no affect that alien's day-to-day existence. I don't think an unknown asteroid in the Kuyper Belt cares if humans suddenly discover it; that asteroid' was just doing its thing for 4.5 billion years before we discovered, and will continue to simply do its thing after we discover it. Its existence remains as unchanged by the human discovery as it would have been if humans did not discover it.

Existence is an absolute that is unrelated to human knowledge. Existence really doesn't have that much to do with humans. We are only a tiny, tiny, tiny (almost non-existent) part of existence in general.


* note: I say "virtually no affect" only because our presence obviously has a local affect, and that local affect that may have some infinitesimally small affect on something on the other side of the universe -- sort of like the "Butterfly Effect", but on an even much, much, much smaller scale).

edit on 4/4/2014 by Box of Rain because: (no reason given)

I'm enjoying the conversation Box of Rain, your name sounds great for a grunge band.

It is true things exist before we observe and interpret them. In our conversation we are using the term "aliens". Aliens might as well be an unknown variable.

Some people think they will look like us, some think they will at least be anatomically structured like humans, and some people think they could look like nothing we have ever imagined.

Finally some people are convinced we will never know.

game over man
I'm enjoying the conversation Box of Rain, your name sounds great for a grunge band.

"Box of Rain" already has a connection to music; it is the name of a classic "Grateful Dead" song.

game over man
It is true things exist before we observe and interpret them. In our conversation we are using the term "aliens". Aliens might as well be an unknown variable.

Some people think they will look like us, some think they will at least be anatomically structured like humans, and some people think they could look like nothing we have ever imagined.

Finally some people are convinced we will never know.

To take this argument to the next logical step in association with the topic of this thread, if it is possible for aliens to exist without humans ever learning of their existence, then it logically follows that the universe could be devoid of other intelligent life, and humans may never learn that, either. BOTH of these potential truths of existence - both the fact that the universe has other life AND the fact that the universe has no other intelligent life - WOULD NOT be affected by human knowledge of those facts, NOR would either of those potential truths be affected if humans never learned those facts.

The true facts of existence - whatever those facts are - are unrelated to somebody or something having knowledge of those facts.

This also fits in with the title of this thread. What humans "want" has nothing to do with the TRUTH of existence. Aliens may exist or aliens may not exist, but whether or not humans "want" one or the other is not relevant. I think intelligent aliens do exist, but what I think (and what everyone else thinks) is not relevant to the truth of the matter.

If the universe is empty of life, humans may never learn that the universe is empty of life, but "existence in general" would not care if humans knew this or not. Similarly, if life does in fact exist in the universe, "existence in general" would not care if humans wanted, believed, or even had knowledge of these aliens.

game over man

uncommitted

game over man
reply to post by uncommitted

 

How do you know something exists without observation? You cannot predict the future! There's no argument here folks...

Edit: who will win the NBA championship this year? Please provide all the statistics of the game, the commentary, and where everyone is sitting, wearing to the game, and the expressions on their face, etc...

edit on 4-4-2014 by game over man because: (no reason given)

It's not predicting the future though, that's the thing. For the NBA I have no idea, I'm British and don't follow. In our Football Premier League, I can make assumptions as to who is most likely to, but then I could be surprised. That level of assumption is something that I am comfortable with, you are going a little further into specifics which is with respect pointless unless you wish to do so as an exercise in imagination.

So your assumptions about the EPL championships can the same be said about alien life? The same type of pondering about future events, i.e. what is most likely the outcome?

What's the most likely outcome? Well for the EPL it won't be Man Utd but I guess that wasn't the question.

My answer is that to answer that question (ET life) with any degree of certainty is a fools errand. I believe the probability is that there is plenty of life out there. If there is life out there at a level we equate as a high level civilisation - who knows, what does that really mean as we are viewing it only from a perspective based on humanity. Technically termites could be argued as having a civilisation if you look at a dictionary definition. Does a high level civilisation equal traversing the universe and buzzing people on our planet with no one else noticing? No proof to say that is the case so can only say it's unlikely.

I'm sorry if you thought I would give a definitive opinion, I can't, and that to me is what a skeptic is.

game over man
How can you imagine the unimaginable? You can't.

We can't imagine what aliens could be like.

But we can guess.

How can we guess without imagining?

Why can we guess but not imagine?