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Skeptics: Do you want to be alone in the Universe?

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posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 03:09 PM
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I am stunned the vast majority of participants in my thread do not understand the question, and how existential of a question it is.

I don't participate in threads that don't fit my liking. Why do you?




posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 03:20 PM
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game over man
reply to post by Chamberf=6
 


Also your post is generalizing the word skeptic in general.

This thread is about skepticism specifically towards aliens and UFOs.

Read carefully before you bash me. Another point I mentioned earlier.

Example:
If people are skeptical of finding life on Mars, they rather cancel the mission, and not look. "Why not help people on earth" etc...or some other argument along those lines.
edit on 1-4-2014 by game over man because: (no reason given)


So "skepticism" is different for different topics?
Some skeptics can be rather closed minded on some topics, but that can certainly be said for "believers" as well.
Some, not all.
Proof is often a required by a skeptic, and rightly so.



If people are skeptical of finding life on Mars, they rather cancel the mission, and not look. "Why not help people on earth" etc

Is this a belief of yours, a generalization you hold of skeptics, or...? Skeptics like many other camps DO help people look.

I have responded to your OP a few times, but to reiterate:


I ask the question because I find it astonishing so many people don't want to look. What caused you to give up the search?

What, besides your apparent assumptions gives you the idea that anyone "gave up the search"?


Do you want to be alone? Do you limit your alien research to ufology? Do you limit it to pictures of Mars? Do you limit it to fraudulent claims or hoaxes? Do you limit your beliefs because of SETI?

1. I'd imagine some people do, although living on a world of extremophiles makes that less likely.
2. No
3. No
4. No
5. No, of course not. It is an ongoing active search.



Do you limit your belief because you are out of touch with modern science?

What?? Modern science has provided many tools with which to search for proof as opposed to believing every youtube vid or personal hearsay account.


Do you feel comfortable with your skeptical belief because of the size of the Universe? It's too big to search?

See above.


Have you seen enough evidence to discount alien life in our solar system?

No. Nor has there been enough (any) proof there is. That does not mean there isn't, the proof of it just (if it's there) hasn't been found. Also have you moved to just the solar system instead of the universe, are you using the terms interchangeably, or is that a mistake?

You seem to have missed -- intentionally or not -- my comment about how since you're fond of over-generalization what if I did the same too? With tables turned does that seem fair and accurate to you?

There is a worldwide effort and collaboration to help SETI by people of all types, for ex.

The rest of your posts of indignation towards me suggest IMO a lack of either understanding or a purposeful lack just to continue your lost cause straw man argument.



I don't participate in threads that don't fit my liking. Why do you?

You asked the questions in the OP. People are trying to answer and respond to you whether you care to realize that or not.



The irony of you being skeptical about alien/UFO skeptics on ATS, generalizing their behavior, "they never do this..." with a bunch of stars is hilarious.

?? I'm skeptical of skeptics?


"They never do this..." ****Can you tell me where I said that in that post you responded to 3 or 4 times?
edit on 4/1/2014 by Chamberf=6 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 03:28 PM
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game over man
I am stunned the vast majority of participants in my thread do not understand the question, and how existential of a question it is.

I don't participate in threads that don't fit my liking. Why do you?


You don't seem to understand the existential point I'm making about good, proper, honest, and healthy skepticism.

For the most part, a good skeptic is one who doesn't let what they may believe dictate to them what they think they know to be the truth. That step from belief to knowing is where the skeptic treads very carefully.

Knowing and believing are two different things. Personally, I can "believe" a lot of things for a lot of reasons, but I need harder evidence before I can say I "know" something to be true. For example, I BELIEVE that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe; However, I don't necessarily KNOW that it is true that intelligent life exists elsewhere.

I have enough reasons to believe life elsewhere may be true, but there may not be enough hard evidence (yet) to claim this it IS true. Besides, what I believe is not relevant when it comes to something being "true or not true".

I mean, why should my personal beliefs dictate what is true or not true? That would be very arrogant of me to think my beliefs matter that much. My beliefs could be wrong, unless I get some hard evidence telling me that those beliefs are true.



edit on 4/1/2014 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 03:32 PM
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Soylent Green Is People

game over man
I am stunned the vast majority of participants in my thread do not understand the question, and how existential of a question it is.

I don't participate in threads that don't fit my liking. Why do you?


You don't seem to understand the existential point I'm making about good, proper, and healthy skepticism.

For the most part, a good skeptic is one who doesn't let what they may believe dictate to them what they think they know to be the truth. That step from belief to knowing is where the skeptic treads very carefully.

Knowing and believing are two different things. Personally, I can "believe" a lot of things for a lot of reasons, but I need harder evidence before I can say I "know" something to be true. For example, I BELIEVE that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe; However, I don't necessarily KNOW that it is true that intelligent life exists elsewhere.

I have enough reasons to believe life elsewhere may be true, but there may not be enough hard evidence (yet) to claim this it IS true. Besides, what I believe is not relevant when it comes to something being "true or not true".

I mean, why should my personal beliefs dictate what is true or not true? That would be very arrogant of me to think my beliefs matter that much. My beliefs could be wrong, unless I get some hard evidence telling me that those beliefs are true.




edit on 4/1/2014 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)


Well said.

The OP should notice that what you wrote in your post has been expressed in a multitude of ways in this thread.

You condensed Readers Digest-style. Maybe that will help.



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 03:53 PM
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Chamberf=6

game over man
reply to post by Chamberf=6
 


Also your post is generalizing the word skeptic in general.

This thread is about skepticism specifically towards aliens and UFOs.

Read carefully before you bash me. Another point I mentioned earlier.

Example:
If people are skeptical of finding life on Mars, they rather cancel the mission, and not look. "Why not help people on earth" etc...or some other argument along those lines.
edit on 1-4-2014 by game over man because: (no reason given)


So "skepticism" is different for different topics?
Some skeptics can be rather closed minded on some topics, but that can certainly be said for "believers" as well.
Some, not all.
Proof is often a required by a skeptic, and rightly so.



If people are skeptical of finding life on Mars, they rather cancel the mission, and not look. "Why not help people on earth" etc

Is this a belief of yours, a generalization you hold of skeptics, or...? Skeptics like many other camps DO help people look.

I have responded to your OP a few times, but to reiterate:


I ask the question because I find it astonishing so many people don't want to look. What caused you to give up the search?

What, besides your apparent assumptions gives you the idea that anyone "gave up the search"?


Do you want to be alone? Do you limit your alien research to ufology? Do you limit it to pictures of Mars? Do you limit it to fraudulent claims or hoaxes? Do you limit your beliefs because of SETI?

1. I'd imagine some people do, although living on a world of extremophiles makes that less likely.
2. No
3. No
4. No
5. No, of course not. It is an ongoing active search.



Do you limit your belief because you are out of touch with modern science?

What?? Modern science has provided many tools with which to search for proof as opposed to believing every youtube vid or personal hearsay account.


Do you feel comfortable with your skeptical belief because of the size of the Universe? It's too big to search?

See above.


Have you seen enough evidence to discount alien life in our solar system?

No. Nor has there been enough (any) proof there is. That does not mean there isn't, the proof of it just (if it's there) hasn't been found. Also have you moved to just the solar system instead of the universe, are you using the terms interchangeably, or is that a mistake?

You seem to have missed -- intentionally or not -- my comment about how since you're fond of over-generalization what if I did the same too? With tables turned does that seem fair and accurate to you?

There is a worldwide effort and collaboration to help SETI by people of all types, for ex.

The rest of your posts of indignation towards me suggest IMO a lack of either understanding or a purposeful lack just to continue your lost cause straw man argument.



I don't participate in threads that don't fit my liking. Why do you?

You asked the questions in the OP. People are trying to answer and respond to you whether you care to realize that or not.



The irony of you being skeptical about alien/UFO skeptics on ATS, generalizing their behavior, "they never do this..." with a bunch of stars is hilarious.

?? I'm skeptical of skeptics?


"They never do this..." ****Can you tell me where I said that in that post you responded to 3 or 4 times?
edit on 4/1/2014 by Chamberf=6 because: (no reason given)


Ok...I don't know why you think we are on different pages on the subject...

Yes I am jumping around from life in the solar system and the entire universe.

What is wrong with saying people (no label) are skeptical of life on Mars so they want to cancel the mission?

People have given up the search due to the terrible credibility of ufology and the Fermi paradox, and the pessimism towards finding a signal or any evidence in exoplanet searches. Not saying the world has given up, but many people have for those above reasons.

There are lots of reports on, "there might be no aliens, or we won't find any."

I'll post them later. Not sure why I should??!



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 03:55 PM
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reply to post by Soylent Green Is People
 


I thought way back we agreed with each other we both have similar beliefs?

Yes I'm stirring the pot today because I like the discussion. Thank you



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by game over man
 




Ok...I don't know why you think we are on different pages on the subject...

Mainly because of everything you have said to me and others.

Besides that...wait, what's aside from that? I don't know. I can't read your thoughts, just your words.



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by Chamberf=6
 


I apologize my words are coming across confusing.

I understand my op skeptics should be changed to non-believers.

However I still think most people who are skeptical who post on ATS might as well be non-believers.

This is not a discussion about Mars rocks, moon hoaxes, or fake YouTube videos.

Yours and everyone's thoughts on aliens, not ufology.



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 04:28 PM
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reply to post by game over man
 




This is not a discussion about Mars rocks, moon hoaxes, or fake YouTube videos.

No it isn't, although you brought up "pictures of Mars" and "fraudulent claims or hoaxes" in your OP as reasons skeptics may have supposedly "given up".


Yours and everyone's thoughts on aliens, not ufology.

Ok....then how many thoughts and answers do you require on the topic of aliens existing or not, when there is a general consensus in the responses to you. No, not all, but a general consensus.
To sum it up: Yes. Possible and even probable in the universe disregarding personal beliefs. Provable? No.

Are you looking for the spokesperson of the Definitive International League of Skeptics (oops now it's "unbelievers")--don't get your hopes up, I made that up-- or what?
edit on 4/1/2014 by Chamberf=6 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 05:12 PM
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reply to post by Chamberf=6
 


I say this in a friendly way, I don't really understand your posting in this thread other than defending skepticism.

There was a good discussion about the obstacles with looking for ET, and the thread mostly focuses on the following:

1. Life in our solar system, extremophiles

2. Life through exoplanet search, bio signatures and/or intelligent signal

We also were discussing the great distances in space, issues with time and light.

At times I would add in on with what I could find on the web, for what our future looks like in terms of increasing our chances of discovering ET with improved technology.

We later started discussing the Ancient Alien theory.

The last few pages has gone back to defending the skeptic and discussing the stubborn believer, and really what more can be debated about skepticism and belief?

Are you suggesting the "we're alone in the universe and we will not make contact crowd" is shrinking? Because I think lots of people still think we will never make contact because the current technology has yielded zero results...people might give the search for extremophile a better chance, but a slim one at that because we haven't found anything.

Extreme Skepticism towards:

1. Exoplanet search finding life

2. Technological signal detected

3. Aliens visiting earth

There are good skeptical arguments debunking those above 3 points with an answer of never will happen.

So if you have a yes it might happen, then great!

If you don't, then maybe you want to be alone in the universe.


edit on 1-4-2014 by game over man because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-4-2014 by game over man because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-4-2014 by game over man because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-4-2014 by game over man because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 06:36 PM
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game over man
reply to post by Chamberf=6
 

I don't really understand your posting in this thread other than defending skepticism.

Why is that not enough?


game over man
I don't participate in threads that don't fit my liking. Why do you?

Cause I'm a skeptic



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 06:51 PM
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reply to post by game over man
 




Are you suggesting the "we're alone in the universe and we will not make contact crowd" is shrinking? Because I think lots of people still think we will never make contact because the current technology has yielded zero results...people might give the search for extremophile a better chance, but a slim one at that because we haven't found anything.

Extreme Skepticism towards:

1. Exoplanet search finding life

2. Technological signal detected

3. Aliens visiting earth

There are good skeptical arguments debunking those above 3 points with an answer of never will happen.

So if you have a yes it might happen, then great!

If you don't, then maybe you want to be alone in the universe.




This is why I ask maybe you prefer to be the only life in the Universe.

To answer your first question that I did not quote: I post here because your OP presented people with an almost antagonistic, generalizing, assumptive, and somewhat condescending question and I have full right to post here.

For what I quoted: Do you need to put words in my mouth and then give a rebuttal to something I didn't even say?
Maybe you do. Where did I "suggest" what you wrote about the "no contact crowd"?

Debunking and skepticism are different things.

On contact:
If not in this thread, then in others I have talked about the immense distances (time) signals would have to travel to even be detected by ETs. That is a strike (not definitive) against making contact. It is possible with slim chances IMO.

The search for exoplanets is not something anyone can debate as it is highly publicized and being done by many countries. It doesn't take a skeptic (oh yeah, now it's disbeliever after you bad mouthed the "skeptics" for 8-9 pages) or a "believer" to read the news.

Aliens visiting Earth. Again the distances (time) it would take and the randomness of intelligent ETs finding Earth. Another unlikely but possible happening.

BUT you just said a couple of posts back it wasn't about aliens visiting (UFOlogy) Earth but them existing at all so I'm not sure why you brought that up even though it was mentioned a page or two.

I mentioned the extremophiles. Yes. So?

You seem IMO to assume falsely that if anyone does not think there is proof of ETs yet that they want to be alone in the universe.

You mentioned evidence of life on Mars because of methane in the atmosphere.
You know what else expels methane?
Volcanoes.
Mars is littered with them and its Olympus Mons is the biggest one in the solar system.
So that evidence is immediately in question and in no way should be considered proof of life.



So if you have a yes it might happen, then great!

If you don't, then maybe you want to be alone in the universe

There are numerous posts saying that there might be life/intelligent life in the universe. But we don't know.

I fall into that camp of yes, there might be, but we don't know. I believe there is, but I don't know. There is no proof.

So does that rate a "Great!" from you or a "maybe you want to be alone in the universe"?

You don't really specify what "If you don't" is referring to in above post as the post kind of wanders around.

It's like you're either not reading my posts very well, or you're just looking to to be a contrarian.

I can't tell.

I don't know. Wait I've typed those words before somewhere...
edit on 4/1/2014 by Chamberf=6 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 09:26 PM
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reply to post by game over man
 


Are you 100% sure you have proof the Egyptians documented how they built the Great Pyramids of Giza?


You have to understand something, the default answer is that human beings created the pyramids. No one needs to prove humans over aliens. It's the believers responsibility to provide actual evidence of alien involvement. However, not once in the entire history of this phenomenon, do we have a single piece of evidence that shows aliens have visited Earth, ever. You have thousands of years for this evidence to come about, yet you still have absolutely no foundation to base this or any alien theory upon.

My purpose in posting wasn't to prove humans built the pyramids, it was to challenge TrueMessiah and give him chance to show his equally compelling evidence. It's safe to assume someone that speaks with such conviction about the subject and is "10 steps ahead", has some pretty convincing evidence. I'm still waiting.


Outside of AA theory it is still a mystery...Why would it be a debate still if there is written proof by the Egyptians? Are you sure the hieroglyphics you posted are depicting the construction?


The mystery isn't if the Egyptians created the pyramids, it's exactly how they did. There's no real-world argument of any rational thinking person asking if aliens beings were involved. People buying into the BS hype put out by shows like Ancient Aliens, books, or the internet are the only ones questioning this.

The pictures I posted show the method Egyptians used for moving large stones and statues. What do you suppose the purpose was of humans moving these stones if aliens zip in, cut and set the blocks into place?

I'll pose the same question I asked of TrueMessiah- Provide me with equally compelling evidence that aliens built a single pyramid. My evidence was very basic and cursory and not that involved. You or anyone should be able to produce the same level of alien evidence. It should be as an easy task.



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 09:35 PM
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reply to post by game over man
 


Being a skeptic of alien visitation doesn't necessarily mean one "wants to be alone in the Universe". As a matter of fact, I take it as a given that we aren't alone in the Universe.

But our current understanding of physics, and our technology, mitigate against it. Doesn't mean it's not happening, but evidence is, to put it mildly, lacking.

People, including me some years ago while in Alaska, are seeing things that could indeed be aliens from elsewhere, but that could just as easily be something else.

It would be insanely cool if a friendly ET cruised on down and landed in front of the White House, or the U.N. building, or anyplace else for that matter...

But until that day? Or incontrovertible evidence of their existence comes out... I'm going to remain skeptical, while believing that they're out there.



posted on Apr, 1 2014 @ 10:01 PM
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reply to post by game over man
 


Wow, none of those things actually.

I have yet to see any real evidence. I am totally open to looking at it if and when there is any.

As for the rest: I totally agree: the universe is stupendous! I believe it is probably teeming with life. I suspect that there are aliens somewhere in "out there" in space / time who have a similar conversation and arrive at pretty much the same conclusions.

It would amazing if genuine aliens arrived at our world from a distant star. I would be extremely interested in their average lifespan, method of propulsion, and actual connection to their mother / home "world" (wherever that is).

I suspect that if flying saucers are real, --the "aliens" likely originate in our own system. But that's just speculation based on the known limitations to the acceleration of matter in our universe. Alternately, flying saucers might be piloted by robots, who have journeyed through the cold emptiness of space for aeons, and have only the vaguest memories of their makers.

All of this is fun to think and talk about, but many believers go beyond that. They have become convinced, and are affronted when others don't accept their conclusions as self-evident. This is true of those who "believe" in Bigfoot. It is doubly true of those who "believe" in ghosts, psychics and imortal vampires, especially when they HATE these things and label them apostasy.

I am a skeptic. I remain unconvinced. But it doesn't really matter. I find the way we humans tend to go about confounding the things that intrigue us to be charming, in its own way. I am a student of the differences between knowledge and belief, experiences and opinion.

In the meantime -- I find the trend towards exploration of our own star system, and the growing body of knowledge about how the universe (and everything in it) actually works to be more worthy of my (limited) time and attention. I still enjoy a good shaggy dog tale, but its a salty snack between meals, and not the main course.


edit on 1-4-2014 by 0zzymand0s because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 10:32 AM
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game over man

Harte

game over man
reply to post by Chamberf=6
 


You are completely unaware or new to ATS.

D'Oh!

Check his join date! LOL

The guy you criticize here has over the years shown more brains in a single hair follicle than you have in your entire family tree.

The problem, it seems to me, is that you think "research" means reading what wild-eyed fringe writers have to say about a thing.

Harte


I WANT AN ANSWER.

JERK.

Let's see,

First - because of what you mindlessly said about Chamberf=6.

Secondly, because of this:


Are you 100% sure you have proof the Egyptians documented how they built the Great Pyramids of Giza?

Outside of AA theory it is still a mystery...Why would it be a debate still if there is written proof by the Egyptians? Are you sure the hieroglyphics you posted are depicting the construction?


And this:



A lot of times hardcore skeptics have an attitude of self entitlement, where they don't need to do the research and the believers are the ones looking into things.


And this:


If no one observed the Universe, the Universe wouldn't exist.

And this:



Do you limit your belief because you are out of touch with modern science?

Do you feel comfortable with your skeptical belief because of the size of the Universe? It's too big to search?

Have you seen enough evidence to discount alien life in our solar system?



And this:



I'd just like to point out that people shouldn't be so skeptical of faster than light travel. Quantum teleportation is already working on this, and space travels faster than light, i.e. big bang theory.

All of the above display the depth of your ignorance, and a couple display your reluctance to check a fact before you proclaim it as true.

As for your family, that's an assumption I made based on what I know of heredity and the environment required to foster rational and critical thinking skills.

Jerk.

Harte



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 10:44 AM
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Skeptic vs believe is not a black and white issue... We are many who could be considered skeptics but in fact simply understand that due to the extreme vastness of space and the lack of confirmation that space can be bend that it is somewhat unlikely that we have or are being visited.

I find the idea of two different strains of humanoids much more interesting....

I dont have a shred of doubt that we are not alone in the universe. I am completely confident that there are many interesting beings out there that we cant fathom but that they simply are, like us, unable to leave their planet much less their system with their current tech.

I could offer a counter question to the hard core believers: are you so affraid of being alone and unimportant that you will believe anything to feel comfortable or have something to fight for?



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 10:44 AM
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amazing
We know that true believers will believe in Alien visitation without looking at the evidence or even considering it.

We also know that true Skeptics will believe there is no Alien Visitation without looking at the evidence or even considering it.

LOL

Big problem here on both sides.


True believers usually have had undeniable sightings/contact

Skeptics look at everything and see nothing but that mantra they picked up in the early days of the computer

"C G I" and "C G I" and "C G I "



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 11:07 AM
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reply to post by ufoorbhunter
 


The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

How about this-

True believers usually have had undeniable sightings/contact, skeptics haven't.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 4/2/2014 by yeahright because: BB code



posted on Apr, 2 2014 @ 11:17 AM
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Harte


And this:

"If no one observed the Universe, the Universe wouldn't exist."

All of the above display the depth of your ignorance, and a couple display your reluctance to check a fact before you proclaim it as true.

Harte




"Man first of all exists, encounters himself, and defines himself afterwards."

Sartre



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