Questions about MKultra Divisions, researchers, and the like.

a reply to: WhiteAlice

Yeah it never is simple. My whole life I had just figured the Jehovah'a Witnesses were a cult and that is why we 'fled' NY to TN. Come to find out, I couldn't see the forest through the tree.

When I turned 25 I had 'preset' amnesia blocks release. Rocked my world. I 'declared' war on 'the church of satan' (yes a real church, lol) and other stuff. I was on the way to prison 16 days later due to the complications of emotion and memory upheaval. Ha… That will teach you patience.

It will work out for you. I can tell you are determined with the whole double writing thing. That is headache material, hehe. Thanks for the extra motivation.

a reply to: Apoceclipse

Much older for me. My noggin finally started to unlock in late 2010. By early 2011, it was like a tornado had hit my life. By summer of 2011, I was living in a nuclear wasteland due to what I'd found and recollected. I actually found direct and incontrovertible evidence of wrong-doing that summer. Was quite the trip and still is. In a lot of ways though, I was prepared for much of it and had already had some pieces laid out just waiting for me to make connection. My father kept my journals from when I was younger and I found so much in there that I had forgotten. My mother also opened up about a few things herself. My family was clearly both my betrayers, perpetrators, and protectors as weird as that sounds. The evidence for all of that is palpable. It's all a mess though.

They say when you hit rock bottom, the only way left is up. It's pretty much true. Whether that is due to resignation and wanting to survive or just saying " **** it", I don't know, lol. I've been cautious while throwing a few things to the wind, little curiosities that I've found along the way of trying to figure out just wth happened to me.

Hang in there. Beware foul rabbit holes and strange loops. I was both lucky and unlucky that my grandfather was what he was as he gave me quite the education.

a reply to: WhiteAlice

the perpetrator/protector part does not sound weird. that is the exact type of thing that a child's mind cannot make sense of. not only the trauma, but the incomprehensible trauma of the ones providing the most love, providing the most hate (or insert term). Thissss makes a split.

The infinity strange loop… chicken or the egg

thanks. i like to break cycles. only to find that is part of the bigger cycle… and so on


SIDE NOTE: I realize we were talking about consciousness, but

- A Shepard tone is another illustrative example of a strange loop.

sounds interesting

a reply to: Apoceclipse

Mine wasn't exactly a loving family so that doesn't fully apply to what occurred with me. I can only recall being physically comforted (held) twice in my entire life by my mother and those both were extraordinary circumstances. Most of the time, feelings were equated to weakness and any display of feelings was rebuked or mocked. My grandfather was the only source of affection because he found my humanity refreshing in a family filled with cold fish. Whereas he was definitely weird, the majority of the abuse stemmed from my mother.

It was such a long standing thing that, after I was born, a psychologist was called in because the staff feared she was rejecting me--a story she told me herself. At the same time, despite her being cold as hell, she wanted to leave the country to protect me from something when I was a teen. I complained about that with the full force of teen angst in my journal at the time. That's what I mean by protector. By betrayer, she also was the vehicle of abuse and was the one who deliberately tried to scrub my mind when I was 18. Good times. Loving? Never. Because of her, I rarely cry to this day. In fact the only time I get tears in my eyes is when I express love to my children. Go figure.

Shepard tone is interesting. I have absolute pitch (one of my "gifts" lol) so I could hear the same base tone throughout but there was a very slight ascending tone towards the end of each note. Mostly heard the core note repeating. Strange loops can also be used in information hierarchy and I'd actually say that they are the pinnacle theory behind disinformation.

a reply to: WhiteAlice

oops. well i was off erhm. my bad.

let me ask you. have you read Svali Speaks or Fritz Springmeier's books? Any newer DID books etc? I am sure you have judging from your other research…


hm… i am going to have to stop typing like i talk. and switching… lol subtle but it is constant. it is always the worst when I write. Not my most competent method of communication!

a reply to: Apoceclipse

I do not trust Springmeier as far as I could throw him for my own reasons and I'm going to remain very cryptic about that one. Please don't mention him again.

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
a reply to: Apoceclipse

I do not trust Springmeier as far as I could throw him for my own reasons and I'm going to remain very cryptic about that one. Please don't mention him again.

hm. alright. I wouldn't speak on that part either way.

I was merely trying to derive how familiar you are with the whole d.i.d. systems go. trying to see your depth of knowledge on d.i.d. sorry if that struck a chord.

What about Svali material? Or, Any just D.I.D. books like Safe Passage to Healing or anything...

The mind is raped.

You must take your journey with those you trust tested one by one, carefully, with the idea that they can, walk you through the rape. Then each step of the way YOU can give you, your power back. They don't, seriously, YOU DO. It is your path.
They guide. No svengalis, for your sake.

You would not choose a rapist to help you with rape.

Our minds create our realities and they knew that when they started. Change a person's mind, you change their reality and you can get them to react to whatever they think they see as their reality.

Your mind is yours. You take your mind back.

I did. I will warn you, I am not Mrs. Popular, but I did.

a reply to: Apoceclipse

No worries. I have my reasons about that particular individual and I know he's held up as a hero or a valid source by many. I just have reason to believe differently.

I spent a good chunk of my life preparing for the unfurling of my mind so to speak. I was diagnosed when I was 16 years old and have had a couple very good therapists prep me for how to proceed when my memories started to unlock (be it trickle or flood). I've never been fond of another doing my homework. If something comes up that warrants further investigation, I investigate it thoroughly through a variety of venues as it pertains to my own experiences and recollections. Somebody else can't know for sure what happened to me--I'm the one who was there the whole time. That's how I see it, at least.

a reply to: WhiteAlice

I got you. I wouldn't even go into the person. There are important concepts in the material regardless of who (co)wrote it.

Not trying to sway an opinion or get you to read it. Just stating that the info was interesting and I don't care about the specifics of who wrote it because there are too many variables for me to form an opinion that is… grounded, shall I say.

I feel the same way about a lot of it, I won't find the answers elsewhere, they are within - right?

I really, really, would glance at some of Svali's material however.

Just my advice.

From what I have already learned about you the 'abreactions' don't scare you off so the direct information about what 'may' have been done is probably handle-able.

You don't want to read it thinking you are going to find the answers, because it may not apply, BUT, at least for me ( a generational ) it made sense of a BUNCH of my memories, and helped me interpret why my room #308 in the 'lab' was all tinted BLUE.

stuff like that…


Anyway, it really depends 'where you came from' - I just notice a couple of variables and think they *might* apply.

I'll leave this issue alone. You know how to read more if you want. lol

a reply to: Apoceclipse

I have total faith and confidence in myself that I will be able to discern the answers. My childhood was peculiar even by your standards. Don't assume that whatever was done was the same. I was given a whole lot of tools to discern and infer by the very people who also subjected me to questionable things. I was given a couple things to read on my summers with my grandfather. A couple Archie comics and a book on profiling and handwriting analysis. I remember reciting the different standards and years for various classifications and I also know the things that my grandfather told me that were sometimes of a classified nature. He had a point of telling me those things and actually cautioned me against going into some of the things that I may have very well been groomed for.

There were things that I had drilled into my head, over and over again. You know you lived in a messed up family scenario when one thing is said over the phone and then blown to bits in person. And the most telling thing of all? The very thing that was used against me when I was 18 was kept, tucked away in a drawer along with a letter I had written to a friend outside of the country detailing my experiences, which had been intercepted. These things should've reasonably been destroyed but instead they were kept in an unlocked drawer, in the same place for over 20 years, just waiting for me to come looking. It was the most terrible thing on one hand to find direct evidence of wrongdoing but at the same time, the greatest gift because I can hold something deemed unethical and dangerous in my hands and know that I am not insane. That is a terrible and beautiful thing.

I was taught not to trust. I was taught to distrust and be aware. I was taught to comprehend the actual value of civilian and military personnel in some of the clearest ways possible. My mother wanted to take me out of the country and head to France, where she didn't even speak the language (but I did). My grandfather was highly ranked and had his own goals in mind. Not everybody tows the line.

If you want to believe what you find freely on the internet, which, yes, is going to contain some nuggets of truth, then that is your business but part of what I learned was the art of disinformation.

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
a reply to: Apoceclipse

I have total faith and confidence in myself that I will be able to discern the answers. My childhood was peculiar even by your standards. Don't assume that whatever was done was the same.
If you want to believe what you find freely on the internet, which, yes, is going to contain some nuggets of truth, then that is your business but part of what I learned was the art of disinformation.

I wasn't assuming. There are many different type of 'programs' that go into people. Even if it was by the same organization, it would most likely be completely different judging by what I know so far about you (and me). I was just curious - because it seems like you do not know, how purposeful, and systematic - your dissociative-ness is.

I do not just believe freely. If I remember something, and have for a while, so do other people, including family, and then I find something that matches it exactly, and really explains it and makes sense, then I might eventually decide that is the truth…

You are on the internet searching for a little bit of truth here there I am sure. You share articles from the internet. What is different about a series of articles? Plus, I have MORE INFO than I openly share pertaining to some things… I am not taking shots in the dark recommending reading lists to you… there are reasons behind this. Perhaps you think I am 'off my mark' because of how I portray myself and my knowledge but I don't feel obligated to show my cards. I present myself, and my knowledge, in a way which best suits the situation, overall, for the long term.

Like I said - I will leave the issue alone.

a reply to: Apoceclipse

Don't make the mistake of presumption. I'm not about to bare my soul to the world for my own reasons--a few of which are quite justifiable by any rationale.

Where I hunt for information is in those areas that the public cannot readily see. I will look at databases of information that are frequently behind a paywall because that's where the goods are--not some tripe on the internet that most people would go ahead and perceive as the ravings of a total lunatic. I'll cite a few things to give you some food for thought.

One, when information or outright evidence of a sensitive or classified nature is actually leaked out onto the internet, then that information is pursued and struck down by the intelligence agencies. If it's shared on a forum, then the forum will be contacted and have that information removed. The tendency is for those forums to comply as it is in their best interest in order to continue as a venue.

Secondly, research needs a basis of pre-existing research to proceed otherwise it risks going in loops. That means that information may still be available but is, instead, compartmentalized behind frequently expensive paywalls. Even then, depending on the information being looked at, it still may not be available in an online format. Those papers are, instead, held within archives of universities of which one might need to be either a current student or member of the alumni to look at.

Look at the case of Aaron Swartz In short, Swartz both a. created DeadDrop--a place where individuals could deposit and share documents anonymously and b. accessed and downloaded multiple gigs worth of research stored on Jstore, making it freely accessible. They went after him viciously for that and I get why. Sometimes someone in another country will provide an online copy of a very interesting research article.

Control over information is a really big deal to the State. That's why we have a classification system in the first place. Those things that are the most sensitive have the option of being reclassified, as opposed to their automatic declassification after 25 years. These kind of items may remain classified for 75 years. Basically, when all individuals involved are presumably dead. Information is taken that seriously and, honestly, I'd say that it's more than likely that even patents and research papers are sealed on a regular basis. There was a fellow that worked on some really fascinating surveillance stuff who was surprised to find his patents on the net. He was under the impression that they were sealed.

Contrast this with what you can readily and easily find on the internet. Are you so sure that what is there is valid?

a reply to: WhiteAlice

A lot of what you say is true but there are always exceptions.

I have news for you. A lot of the 'declassified' information is SCRIPTED. Hopefully this is not news but then it puts you back to the level playing field.

There is accurate information on the internet, and elsewhere. There is also varying degrees of inaccurate information on the internet, and elsewhere.

I'm not trying to pit the internet against declassified documents. Point is, the declassified documents, however you come into contact with them, are just as easily tampered with, if not easier. The internet is an ever changing variable.

Those declassified documents only had to be censored ONCE. and that was that.

You see the problems?

I appreciate the lesson on (dis)information ETC ETC but I hope you realize that THIS IS MY LINE OF WORK. lol…

My typing and lack of effort may not reflect this, however. lol.


to sum up the topic tho (making a liar out of myself for revisiting) - I am not so sure anything anywhere is valid. I aimed you in a direction where I know for a fact some of the info is real, regardless of how you want to look at the big picture of misinformation. it is real, and it is all over the internet. unless you are afraid of it 'clouding your judgement' or something.

Yes, I am sure about the one specific thing, not the internet as a whole. I mean you are putting up a strong argument with good supporting body (lol) but I think you are putting too much into this. No offense. Chill out for a second there.

If you didn't want to read it, FINE. NO BIGGY! LIKE, AT ALL. hehe. I know all about the information game, trust me on that.

But let me ask you this - why are you constantly linking to articles from the internet (such as the javits article, which I KNOW is real, since I experienced that curriculum in that area around that time and had BEEN SEARCHING for articles) if the information is so BS.

Like I said, you realize, it is easier to get a lid of HARD COPY info. You don't have a million new people putting a new part of a book up every few mins in the library that anyone can access from anywhere...

a reply to: Apoceclipse

What do you think I meant about disinformation? There isn't anything that has been freely put out there that hasn't been twisted and homogenized. I link what I can show as being evidence available for inference and the links that I provide on some very, very serious subjects are ones that tend to be locked behind those paywalls. That's a lot better than linking to information that are rife with both disinformation and truth.

Believe what you will. You obviously will do that anyways. You can try to diminish what I'm saying through the engagement of fallacies; however, I'm trying to warn you for your own sake. My intentions are good.

To be honest, I always 'hunt' for info within, then after digesting what digests, I look outward for confirmation.

I have a D.I.D. SYSTEM. When I go to the 'greek programming world' or whatever you want to call it - the internal programmer is 'ghadad, overlord of arcadia'. I look up Arcadia, and LO AND BEHOLD, it is an actual place in Greece, and the rest of what I found out was even more relevant.

Ok, I am just saying that when you have a reference list of 'structures' and 'programs' it could help identify what something is, possibly. ESPECIALLY, if it was a PURPOSEFULLY CREATED D.I.D. SYSTEM.

I did not even want to know the specifics - I wanted YOU to know them.

Just trying to help you find answers for yourself! No big deal, I am not saying to trust anything, or anyone. Just a hey - I read something interesting, you see anything in this you think merits further research or discussion.

See? No biggy.

I really will drop this, Just seemed like you think I am trying to steer you somewhere dangerous when to me, not at least checking something out that could help is more dangerous than being closed minded. Not that you are being closed minded. ANYWAY I think I will stop lol.

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
a reply to: Apoceclipse

What do you think I meant about disinformation? There isn't anything that has been freely put out there that hasn't been twisted and homogenized. I link what I can show as being evidence available for inference and the links that I provide on some very, very serious subjects are ones that tend to be locked behind those paywalls. That's a lot better than linking to information that are rife with both disinformation and truth.

Believe what you will. You obviously will do that anyways. You can try to diminish what I'm saying through the engagement of fallacies; however, I'm trying to warn you for your own sake. My intentions are good.

Damn you are combative. I am not trying to diminish what you are saying. I generally agree… lol Maybe I will let this settle for ya!

I am NOT engaging fallacies. Your argument argued against its own point =P is that a fallacy hehe

a reply to: Apoceclipse

If I seem combative, it's because you are engaging in fallacies. I didn't argue against my own point. Your fallacy is declaring that your freely accessible links on the internet somehow trumps things stuffed outside of public purview behind paywalls and locked up in libraries. Does that really make sense to you?

One of my links that I provided elsewhere actually is a locked up document of which I could only provide screen captures of that openly discusses the use of '___' and post hypnotic suggestion on gifted children. People can talk about their experiences all day but you know what? Having a research document that spins the "beneficial nature" of things like that is a lot more forceful than anecdotal evidence.

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
a reply to: Apoceclipse

If I seem combative, it's because you are engaging in fallacies. I didn't argue against my own point. Your fallacy is declaring that your freely accessible links on the internet somehow trumps things stuffed outside of public purview behind paywalls and locked up in libraries. Does that really make sense to you?

One of my links that I provided elsewhere actually is a locked up document of which I could only provide screen captures of that openly discusses the use of '___' and post hypnotic suggestion on gifted children. People can talk about their experiences all day but you know what? Having a research document that spins the "beneficial nature" of things like that is a lot more forceful than anecdotal evidence.

My experience trumps (aside from trumping having to go against) anything you can read - to me - because it is experience. There is some info on the internet that matches that but NO it doesn't TRUMP anything. Is the info GOING AGAINST IT? It would have to go against it to trump it wouldn't it?

Fallacy… you are using a word for arguing.


"""One of my links that I provided elsewhere actually is a locked up document of which I could only provide screen captures of that openly discusses the use of '___' and post hypnotic suggestion on gifted children. """

Uh, there are OLD declassified documents from MKULTRA that discuss this all over the internet. Perhaps not actually on the gifted children now that I think of it, so that interests me, but they don't 'TRUMP' each other. They SUPPORT each other.

Seriously, what are you arguing about. You are coming close to putting words in peoples mouths…


""""Having a research document that spins the "beneficial nature" of things like that is a lot more forceful than anecdotal evidence. """"

So you have to pit it against each other. They can't be supportive of each other? Why is this? Or am I putting words in mouths now.

I was trying to share something I knew. If you think I am full of #, fine. I am not too too worried, I just tried to help.

Seriously - realize you are the one guiding this. If you wish to 'argue harder' about nothing we can.

You are the one making an argument out of a conversation though… At least from the IM BLAMELESS point of view. lol

a reply to: Apoceclipse

Actually, the documents that discuss MK-ULTRA do not contain that bit--let alone having it something that may have occurred within our public school system. You can carry on all you like in what you so firmly believe. I, too, have some interesting experiences but I'm going about it differently. I just find it highly entertaining that, because I chose a different path than the great filters of the internet, I get accused of somehow being ignorant or not knowing what I'm talking about.

Fascinating.