Tymoshenko - "We Should Fire Nukes At Them!"

Ukrainians view it as such no matter how many times it's spun on the internet.

reply to post by Wookiep


Not all Ukranians view it as such...however the PEOPLE of Crimea don't see it as an invasion. They just voted overwhelmingly to rejoin Russia.

When does what the people that actually LIVE THERE want...come into this discussion??

As for Ukraine proper....there have been no Russian troops sent to invade the Ukraine. Period.

reply to post by deadcalm

When does what the people that actually LIVE THERE come into this discussion??

Ah. and this is the magic bullet that any pro-Putin supporter will give as an excuse because this is Russia's way of pushing it's agenda while making it seem like it's for "the people". It's been beaten to death. Let's talk about the people.

Why can't the people have have their OWN elections? You do know that Crimea is a legal part of UKRAINE with a special "status" that could have separated itself from Ukraine on it's own WITHOUT Russian intervention, right? Just because Ukraine allowed Russia to have a base there, this allows them to force Russian elections, with NO option to stay with Ukraine? Russians DONT make up 100% of Crimea, last I heard it was somewhere around 56%. So just screw everyone else? Well with that logic, I guess L.A. should belong to Mexico.

If people living in Ukraine love Russia so much, why can't they move to Russia? Your solution is to just allow Russia to decide their fate for them? Good looking out for the people, bro! What's next? Moldova? Estonia? Poland? So Russia has free reign to force these pro-Russian elections everywhere there are Russians? They (the people of Crimea) will learn soon enough they should have gone independent as their own sovereign nation, and they should have decided it on their own.

reply to post by deadcalm


I'm glad to see another fellow from the pacific region with such logical reasoning it appears cabin fever has set in for our friends in the northern hemisphere. If they can't resolve this peacefully and logically I will have lost all hope. Oh well.

Wookiep
reply to post by deadcalm

 

When does what the people that actually LIVE THERE come into this discussion??

Ah. and this is the magic bullet that any pro-Putin supporter will give as an excuse because this is Russia's way of pushing it's agenda while making it seem like it's for "the people". It's been beaten to death. Let's talk about the people.

Why can't the people have have their OWN elections? You do know that Crimea is a legal part of UKRAINE with a special "status" that could have separated itself from Ukraine on it's own WITHOUT Russian intervention, right? Just because Ukraine allowed Russia to have a base there, this allows them to force Russian elections, with NO option to stay with Ukraine? Russians DONT make up 100% of Crimea, last I heard it was somewhere around 56%. So just screw everyone else? Well with that logic, I guess L.A. should belong to Mexico.

If people living in Ukraine love Russia so much, why can't they move to Russia? Your solution is to just allow Russia to decide their fate for them? Good looking out for the people, bro! What's next? Moldova? Estonia? Poland? So Russia has free reign to force these pro-Russian elections everywhere there are Russians? They (the people of Crimea) will learn soon enough they should have gone independent as their own sovereign nation, and they should have decided it on their own.

edit on 24-3-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)

You mean the elections that were going to take place as per agreements when the western supported maidan/neonazis ousted the elected president? Nah those went out the window when maidan took the capital.
Guess you need a better look at western politics before you come here moaning about the russians, or whatever the crimeans may have chosen to do...

reply to post by Yusomad


Crimea could have separated on their own, it does not share the same status as Ukraine proper. If the people of Crimea didn't like the Pro-Russian president being outsed by the evil Nazi boogeymen or whoever, then it could have happened without Russian intervention, period. Putin used it as a land grab because he's afraid of EU and NATO expansion, that's all there is to it. This has nothing to do with the PEOPLE, but keep spinning your Putin propaganda.

reply to post by Yusomad


yes, actually it would be very stupid thing from Russia side to sit and wait for new "government" to change the laws and maybe try to limit Russian influence in the Black Sea.

just remember; one of their first decision was to outlaw Russian language.

what a stupid thing to do.
so stupid, almost, like it was intended to provoke...

reply to post by Yusomad


How dare you question their commitment toward democracy. After all the US government supported to the tune of billions of military aid to the government committing these noble deeds in the link below. Their commitment to democracy is unshakable that's why all the news has been about the upcoming election, what the candidates are running on and who is likely to prevail.

edition.cnn.com...

could have separated itself from Ukraine on it's own WITHOUT Russian intervention, right?

reply to post by Wookiep


What Russian intervention? Nobody was marching the Crimeans into the voting booth at gunpoint. There were international press from all over Europe there that obseved the referendum with no reports of Russian interference.

Russians DONT make up 100% of Crimea, last I heard it was somewhere around 56%. So just screw everyone else?

I hate to be the one to break it to you...but that is how a democracy works....majority rules. Imperfect it may be...but thats the way it is. As for the minorities living in Crimea that don't want to be a part of Russia...they do have options. They can move to Ukraine proper if they so choose.

If people living in Ukraine love Russia so much, why can't they move to Russia?

Can you show me any proof that Ukranians cannot apply for Russian citizenship?

Your solution is to just allow Russia to decide their fate for them?

Russia hasn't decided anything for anyone. There is no Russian invasion force in Ukraine proper forcing them to do anything. As for Crimea....I repeat...THEY DID MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICE.

Good looking out for the people, bro!

How do I have any reponsibility for looking out for the Crimeans or the Ukranians for that matter? Utterly ridiculous statement.

What's next? Moldova? Estonia? Poland?

How would I have any idea what is next? Maybe you should ask NATO that question as they seem to be the ones slowly but surely creeping closer to the Russian border...they have already been effectively surrounded by NATO and it's allies.

So Russia has free reign to force these pro-Russian elections everywhere there are Russians? T

The Russians didn't force Crimea to do anything...thats total nonsense.

But the US has a long history of imposing their will on other nations through bloody coups, if necessary...installing brutal dictators....dictators that have been responsible for the deaths of millions upon millions of people...here is what they have been up to since 1944.

1 Prior to Cold War
1.1 Russia
2 During the Cold War
2.1 Communist states 1944–89
2.2 Syria 1949
2.3 Iran 1953
2.4 Guatemala 1954
2.5 Tibet 1955–70s
2.6 Indonesia 1958
2.7 Cuba 1959
2.8 Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960–65
2.9 Iraq 1960–63
2.10 Dominican Republic 1961
2.11 South Vietnam 1963
2.12 Brazil 1964
2.13 Ghana 1966
2.14 Chile 1970–73
2.15 Argentina 1976
2.16 Afghanistan 1979–89
2.17 Turkey 1980
2.18 Poland 1980–81
2.19 Nicaragua 1981–90
2.19.1 Destablization through CIA assets
2.19.2 Arming the Contras
2.20 Cambodia 1980–95
2.21 Angola 1980s
2.22 Philippines 1986
3 Since the end of the Cold War
3.1 Iraq 1992–96
3.2 Afghanistan 2001
3.3 Venezuela 2002
3.4 Iraq 2002–03
3.5 Haiti 2004
3.6 Gaza Strip 2006–present
3.7 Somalia 2006–07
3.8 Iran 2005–present
3.9 Libya 2011
3.10 Syria 2012–present
3.11 Ukraine 2013–2014

Source

They (the people of Crimea) will learn soon enough they should have gone independent as their own sovereign nation, and they should have decided it on their own.

Thats the way democracy works...you make a decision and then you get to live with the consequences. If it goes wrong, the Crimeans have nobody to blame but themselves.

reply to post by deadcalm

The Russians didn't force Crimea to do anything...thats total nonsense.

Since this reflects pretty much your entire long-winded response, it's the only thing needed to be quoted. You're deluded if you think Russia didn't force this whole situation in Crimea. Thousands of Russian soldiers "masked and un-identified" storm in, force all Ukrainian soldiers to un-arm and step aside, block all outside media, force a "referendum" on their terms, mind you, create ballots with Ukraine not an option and they didn't force anything? Well, if after all that, you still don't think anything was forced, I can't help you.

Just bear in mind the rest of the world won't allow that kind of behavior for much longer, as most disagree with you, especially if Putin thinks he can do this everywhere else. Say all you want about the U.S. and how bad they are, I will prolly agree with you on most points, but two wrongs don't make a right. Russia and Putin are not the saviors you think they are.

Just bear in mind the rest of the world won't allow that kind of behavior for much longer

reply to post by Wookiep


The US has a long history of imposing their will on other nations through bloody coups, if necessary...installing brutal dictators....dictators that have been responsible for the deaths of millions upon millions of people...here is what they have been up to since 1944.

1 Prior to Cold War
1.1 Russia
2 During the Cold War
2.1 Communist states 1944–89
2.2 Syria 1949
2.3 Iran 1953
2.4 Guatemala 1954
2.5 Tibet 1955–70s
2.6 Indonesia 1958
2.7 Cuba 1959
2.8 Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960–65
2.9 Iraq 1960–63
2.10 Dominican Republic 1961
2.11 South Vietnam 1963
2.12 Brazil 1964
2.13 Ghana 1966
2.14 Chile 1970–73
2.15 Argentina 1976
2.16 Afghanistan 1979–89
2.17 Turkey 1980
2.18 Poland 1980–81
2.19 Nicaragua 1981–90
2.19.1 Destablization through CIA assets
2.19.2 Arming the Contras
2.20 Cambodia 1980–95
2.21 Angola 1980s
2.22 Philippines 1986
3 Since the end of the Cold War
3.1 Iraq 1992–96
3.2 Afghanistan 2001
3.3 Venezuela 2002
3.4 Iraq 2002–03
3.5 Haiti 2004
3.6 Gaza Strip 2006–present
3.7 Somalia 2006–07
3.8 Iran 2005–present
3.9 Libya 2011
3.10 Syria 2012–present
3.11 Ukraine 2013–2014

So you tell me...are the Russians really the problem here, or is it constant interference by the Americans in the internal politics of other nations??

How many countries has Russia fomented violent coups in? NONE

reply to post by deadcalm

As for Ukraine proper....there have been no Russian troops sent to invade the Ukraine. Period

So I guess this was done on a movie set...



And yes those are Russian soldiers raiding a Ukraine base, but according to you this couldn't have happened as Russia doesn't have troops invading Ukraine.

And before you forget, Crimea was part of Ukraine before Russia decided to annex them back to Russia.

reply to post by Wookiep


Was the 2010 election also forced by Russian troops? Given a coup had ousted the president the people of Crimea had voted over 75% for and the demographics of the region I find it hard to believe they wouldn't want to leave that situation. What is your reasoning for thinking they would want to stay under the Ukraine government given this situation and if opposition was significant how was this accomplished without any armed resistance from the people of Crimea? Sometimes the simplest answer is the correct answer.

2010 election results



edition.cnn.com...

Wookiep
reply to post by deadcalm

 

The Russians didn't force Crimea to do anything...thats total nonsense.

Since this reflects pretty much your entire long-winded response, it's the only thing needed to be quoted. You're deluded if you think Russia didn't force this whole situation in Crimea. Thousands of Russian soldiers "masked and un-identified" storm in, force all Ukrainian soldiers to un-arm and step aside, block all outside media, force a "referendum" on their terms, mind you, create ballots with Ukraine not an option and they didn't force anything? Well, if after all that, you still don't think anything was forced, I can't help you.

Just bear in mind the rest of the world won't allow that kind of behavior for much longer, as most disagree with you, especially if Putin thinks he can do this everywhere else. Say all you want about the U.S. and how bad they are, I will prolly agree with you on most points, but two wrongs don't make a right. Russia and Putin are not the saviors you think they are.

edit on 24-3-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)

you might be half - right but I would choose this kind of intervention over "American style" interventions in Iraq & Afghanistan for example, not to mention the other excursions any day.

in the end, I don't see rioting or sabotaging in Crimea, people are not dying there.

And yes those are Russian soldiers raising a Ukraine base, but according to you this couldn't have happened as Russia doesn't have troops invading Ukraine>

reply to post by tsurfer2000h


Correction...that is a Ukranian base in CRIMEA, which is no longer Ukranian territory. So just to reiterate....Russia has not invaded Ukraine....nor did they invade Crimea...THEY WERE ALREADY THERE. They did not bring in any additional Russian troops....even though they have every legal right to do so.

And before you forget, Crimea was part of Ukraine before Russia decided to annex them back to Russia.

They were a part of Russia long before they were part of Ukraine...Russia didn't annex anything....the Crimean people voted to right an historical wrong and Return to Russia. What is so hard to understand?

reply to post by deadcalm

How many countries has Russia fomented violent coups in? NONE

Sure about that?

The 1948 Czechoslovak coup d'état (often simply the Czech coup) (Czech: Únor 1948, Slovak: Február 1948, both meaning "February 1948") – in Communist historiography known as "Victorious February" (Czech: Vítězný únor, Slovak: Víťazný február) – was an event late that February in which the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia, with Soviet backing, assumed undisputed control over the government of Czechoslovakia, marking the onset of four decades of Communist dictatorship in the country.

en.wikipedia.org...'%C3%A9tat

tsurfer2000h
reply to post by deadcalm

 

As for Ukraine proper....there have been no Russian troops sent to invade the Ukraine. Period

So I guess this was done on a movie set...

And yes those are Russian soldiers raiding a Ukraine base, but according to you this couldn't have happened as Russia doesn't have troops invading Ukraine.

And before you forget, Crimea was part of Ukraine before Russia decided to annex them back to Russia.

edit on 24-3-2014 by tsurfer2000h because: (no reason given)

of course, what he meant is that the Russian troops present were not "invading" from Russia but exercising their rights as per agreements on Russian bases on Crimean peninsula.
Crimea had right for self determination...

Sure about that?

reply to post by tsurfer2000h


I stand corrected....they have had 1 compared to how many for the US??

reply to post by deadcalm


I'm not arguing about the U.S. and it's actions. As I already said I would probably agree with you on most things if we really sat down and talked about it. This discussion is about the situation in Ukraine, however. I believe it's a situation that needs to just be a fluke and stop with Crimea. Let Russia have it, it's illegal and it was not within international law but it is what it is. This is how it all starts though unless it stops now. Russia is not on some "democracy" kick to free the world. This is about Putin expanding Russia back to it's state before the U.S.S.R. fell. IMO, of course. This is a country no less corrupt than the U.S.

IMO this is one of the very few instances since WWII (the last legitimate war IMO) where I would agree with intervention from the world stage, not just the U.S. if Putin wants to keep it up. Borders have been established, NATO has been formed and some European countries are threatened by this recent activity by Putin. We can argue about how and why those borders were established and we may come up with a million reasons why the west doesn't deserve it and is corrupt etc etc etc. The fact of the matter is though, this could very well escalate into WWIII if not put in check. The ball really is in Putin's court.

reply to post by Wookiep

I think you should watch that video about how borders have changed in just last 100 - 200 years.
new countries, unions and regions joining or separating every single year.

reply to post by deadcalm

Correction...that is a Ukranian base in CRIMEA, which is no longer Ukranian territory. So just to reiterate....Russia has not invaded Ukraine....nor did they invade Crimea...THEY WERE ALREADY THERE. They did not bring in any additional Russian troops....even though they have every legal right to do so.

So then what country was Crimea part of before this resolution?

That's right it was Ukraine, or did I miss something?

The Russians have a base in Crimea, that does not mean they can take the whole peninsula.

So by your logic the US has the right take over whatever country we have a base in, because your saying it was fine for Russia to do that?

Russia is bound by an agreement they made with Ukraine.

After both Ukraine and Russia terminated the union several acute disputes formed. The former one was the question of the Crimea which the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic had administered since 1954. This however was largely resolved in an agreement that allowed for Crimea to remain part of Ukraine, provided its Autonomous Republic status is preserved.

en.wikipedia.org...