I think Vonnegut got it right... on Darwin

Yes, KVJ... (For those unfamiliar I am referring to Kurt Vonnegut Jr.)

I didn't start his thread to engage in a conversation about religion... just getting that out there now.

What I am asking is simply to ponder this one simple quote by a famous author... a man that survived the fire bombing of Dresden during WWII. (He got his Purple Heart for frostbite in 1945... there's irony for ya...) I beleive that he has one point in the "been there, done that" column that we can't even imagine... or would even want to. Think about it, for a moment though... Origin of the Species invalidated the need for a Creator in any way, shape or form.

Prior to that publication... we lived in a society that saw things in terms of RIGHT and WRONG. We have now become a society of LEGAL and ILLEGAL, and that, my friends, is tragic.

As a KVJ fan I though I'd throw in a few of his other quotes on evolution :

I am too lazy to chase down the exact quotation but the British astronomer Fred Hoyle said something to this effect: The believing in Darwin’s theoretical mechanisms of evolution was like believing that a hurricane could blow through a junkyard and build a Boeing 747. No matter what is doing the creating. I have to say that the giraffe and the rhinoceros are ridiculous. And so is the human brain, capable, in cahoots with the more sensitive parts of the body, such as the ding dong, of hating life while pretending to love it, and behaving accordingly: Somebody shoot me while I’m happy!

-Timequake

Outstanding read BTW... ATSers would love it...

I do feel that evolution is being controlled by some sort of divine engineer. I can't help thinking that. And this engineer knows exactly what he or she is doing and why, and where evolution is headed. That’s why we’ve got giraffes and hippopotami and the clap.

-The Observer

I was taught that the human brain was the crowning glory of evolution so far, but I think it’s a very poor scheme for survival.

-The Daily Show

My personal favorite of the three

Edit to add: in case you are wondering it's from Armageddon In Retrospect...

Tragic or not, I think we are doomed to search out the facts to their (and our) bitter bitter end. It is our curse.

Another big Vonnegut fan here. We are still just farting around on this planet.

I was "exposed" to him in a literature class in college. The infection hasn't left.

BUT I take issue with the idea science has condoned war and/or genocide. Science classifies things; it doesn't judge. Science starts with the basic concept that all things can be reduced down to fundamental particles, including things such as thoughts in our brains. This means all things are, fundamentally, the rock and roll of atomic and subatomic (and waveform?) clashes. Insofar as I know, science hasn't concluded war and/or genocide are beneficial to survival, so it isn't condoning them.

However, there might be immoral actions tied to potentially beneficial survival traits, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

To me science has always just been like a lens: it shows us what's going on, fundamentally. Science isn't telling us what's wrong or right.

Personally, I think evolution is f*****-up and so is this universe. I don't know who or what made it, but it's f*****-up in the head, IMHO. Seems to me misery and suffering are prerequisite. It's like the creator believes death and destruction make us better beings, so it adds more to the mixture. And it has been this way for so long even the creator can't imagine things any different; we can't survive any different. Yes, I just said WE cannot live without death and destruction. The creator, in all its wisdom, has made us dependent on such things. If they were to be removed, my bet is humans would be like fish out of water.

reply to post by jonnywhite


I think his point was more along the lines of science and the military-industrial complex... science driven by corporate greed and government shenanigans...

reply to post by madmac5150


I'd say evolution has given the cachet of science to death and destruction.

As in, our limited lifespan is tied to evolution. And it's well known survival pressures and big events, such as disasters, can spur new innovations. It's said the break-up of pangea - the separation of the landmass - actually helped evolution.

en.wikipedia.org - Vicariance...

Ever heard "Necessity is the mother of invention?"

What that's actually saying is if you're being chased by a lion, you invent more things. BUt it ain't exactly a pretty picture, is it? I wonder how many people had to be eaten by lions for it to be necessity? 50? 100? 1000? 100,000? 1,000,000?

So there's no way out. Either things are too comfortable and we'll go extinct or things are too catastrophic and we'll go extinct.

This is why we invented heaven: To get away from the universe. Sadly, it's probably a fantasy. We're like little kids: we can't handle this universe. It's like that scene with Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson: "You can't handle the truth!"

reply to post by madmac5150


Sorry but war and genocide has had its cachet as far as history goes back if you read your bible. How many times did God commanded his chosen people to conquer the Promised Land, he placed city after city 'under the ban" which meant that every man, woman and child was to be slaughtered at the point of the sword.

Darwin never glorified war or genocide.

reply to post by Grimpachi


Again I asked to keep religion to a minimum...

I see it like this: Prior to Origins being published, most folks had some sort of inner idea that we were made by a power far greater than ourselves. Most people, princes and paupers alike, had a concept that how you lived your life would someday have consequences. Period. The powers that be, in their lofty perches, still had an inkling that they could only buy themselves out of so much... because they may have to face some higher power when they passed on.

Darwin changed all of that: That inner idea that most people, religious or otherwise carried with them... that was effectively written off. Most of our leaders, politicians etc. don't have that nagging voice to "do the right thing" anymore because of Darwin. The moral compass was demagnetized, and has been ever since...

reply to post by madmac5150


You can try to keep the subject as bible friendly as you want but when you imply that people only have a moral compass due to a mythical creature then you are bound to be faced with reality.

Reality is if you don't need a creator to have morals if you don't know right from wrong you lack empathy not religion. The reality is we live in one of the most peaceful times in history(look it up). Reality is WWII was the result of a nut case named Hitler who identified as Christian.

You can try to lay the worlds sorrows at Darwins feet, but reality is the wars of today are not the result of evolutionary theory. In fact most of the wars and conflicts today in one way or another have been stoked by religions(look it up).

reply to post by Grimpachi


Wow Godwin's law reared it's ugly head early...

Mr Darwin... meet Mr. Godwin... and likewise, of course, for the sake of politeness and all...

Grimpachi
reply to post by madmac5150

 

Sorry but war and genocide has had its cachet as far as history goes back if you read your bible. How many times did God commanded his chosen people to conquer the Promised Land, he placed city after city 'under the ban" which meant that every man, woman and child was to be slaughtered at the point of the sword.

Darwin never glorified war or genocide.

probably but it happens anyway.

is genocide like extinction?

Grimpachi
reply to post by madmac5150

 

You can try to keep the subject as bible friendly as you want but when you imply that people only have a moral compass due to a mythical creature then you are bound to be faced with reality.

Reality is if you don't need a creator to have morals if you don't know right from wrong you lack empathy not religion. The reality is we live in one of the most peaceful times in history(look it up). Reality is WWII was the result of a nut case named Hitler who identified as Christian.

You can try to lay the worlds sorrows at Darwins feet, but reality is the wars of today are not the result of evolutionary theory. In fact most of the wars and conflicts today in one way or another have been stoked by religions(look it up).

dawin was a christian.

wars are started by some dude. name a war started by religion for religion?

in "today's" timeline.

madmac5150
reply to post by jonnywhite

 

I think his point was more along the lines of science and the military-industrial complex... science driven by corporate greed and government shenanigans...

That is a rather IRONIC statement because the church / religion in general is GUILTY of the same things through the ages why because of the common denominator MAN!!

madmac5150
reply to post by jonnywhite

 

I think his point was more along the lines of science and the military-industrial complex... science driven by corporate greed and government shenanigans...

I think religion - or my god is better than your god - has done a bit more nasty stuff over the time that humans formed out of the oceans.

just sayin'...

tsingtao

wars are started by some dude. name a war started by religion for religion?

in "today's" timeline.

How many terrorists are blowing themselves up, slaughtering innocents, slicing throats, chopping off heads, strapping bombs to children, crashing passenger bets and all sorts of ghastly, morally repungent acts in the name of religion right now?

reply to post by madmac5150

Darwin changed all of that: That inner idea that most people, religious or otherwise carried with them... that was effectively written off. Most of our leaders, politicians etc. don't have that nagging voice to "do the right thing" anymore because of Darwin. The moral compass was demagnetized, and has been ever since...

So are you saying that all the leaders of civilizations prior to Darwin like the romans, greeks, persians, hun, mongols, goths, visigoths, vandals, vikings .......... had their moral compasses magnetized did 'the right thing' ?????

I'm pretty sure most of them burned, raped and pillaged their way across the known world without any hindrance from morals.

reply to post by madmac5150

Again I asked to keep religion to a minimum...

Oh, right, it's not as if you're promoting creationism with this twaddle.

Have you read Darwin? If you haven't, you are not qualified to have an opinion on this subject — not that it will prevent you, or anyone else, from having one and blustering it all over the internet.

I have read Darwin — The Origin of Species, The Voyage of the Beagle and The Descent of Man — and nothing in those books, his most widely read works, give any kind of cachet to either war or genocide. Perhaps Vonnegut was referring to something Darwin wrote in his famous treatise on earthworms, or his paper on symbiotic bacteria that live in the gills of molluscs? Do tell.

Hatemongers and bloodspillers will use any excuse available to justify their words and deeds. Small wonder that a theory so often summed up (misleadingly) as 'survival of the fittest' became grist to their mill. None of them ever read Darwin either; they just invoke his name in order to pretend that their views are justified by science.

In exactly the same way, you — who, I will bet my best boots, have never read a chapter of Darwin in your sweet life — are using Vonnegut's senile bletherings as grist to your Creationist mill, impugning an author you haven't read in order to excuse your prejudices. I bet Vonnegut never read him either.

I expect this thread will run and run.

madmac5150
reply to post by Grimpachi

 

Again I asked to keep religion to a minimum...

I see it like this: Prior to Origins being published, most folks had some sort of inner idea that we were made by a power far greater than ourselves. Most people, princes and paupers alike, had a concept that how you lived your life would someday have consequences. Period. The powers that be, in their lofty perches, still had an inkling that they could only buy themselves out of so much... because they may have to face some higher power when they passed on.

You know this how? What if religion is just a scam implemented by the elite to control the masses? The elite would know better and your above paragraph would be untrue. Also, even if they DO think as above, it certainly didn't stop them from carrying out war after war in some god or another's name.

Darwin changed all of that: That inner idea that most people, religious or otherwise carried with them... that was effectively written off. Most of our leaders, politicians etc. don't have that nagging voice to "do the right thing" anymore because of Darwin. The moral compass was demagnetized, and has been ever since...

Name a time in history when that "nagging voice" made the elite do the right thing, and MAYBE you'll have a point. But until then, a CONSCIENCE, which by the way still exists in the post-Darwin world, isn't going to stop a sociopath or psychopath from doing what they do.

reply to post by madmac5150


Darwin is only guilty of taking the time to practice science and write about his findings. To blame that for war and genocide is at best a joke, or at worst, stupidity.

Perhaps I too will invent a scapegoat for war and genocide, but I'm fine blaming the actual causes, the one's participating in wars and genocide, rather than what they may or may not have read at any given time.

tsingtao

Grimpachi
reply to post by madmac5150

 

Sorry but war and genocide has had its cachet as far as history goes back if you read your bible. How many times did God commanded his chosen people to conquer the Promised Land, he placed city after city 'under the ban" which meant that every man, woman and child was to be slaughtered at the point of the sword.

Darwin never glorified war or genocide.

is genocide like extinction?

No.

Genocide is the systematic destruction of all or part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group.

Extinction is the end of an organism or of a group of organisms, normally a species.

Extinction is happening as we speak to species across the globe although we do not always know the reason.

Genocide always is on purpose.

Neanderthals went extinct however in the scientific community we do not know why however there are some ideas but if you believe the bible it was the result of a flood which would classify the cause as genocide.

tsingtao

Grimpachi
reply to post by madmac5150

 

You can try to keep the subject as bible friendly as you want but when you imply that people only have a moral compass due to a mythical creature then you are bound to be faced with reality.

Reality is if you don't need a creator to have morals if you don't know right from wrong you lack empathy not religion. The reality is we live in one of the most peaceful times in history(look it up). Reality is WWII was the result of a nut case named Hitler who identified as Christian.

You can try to lay the worlds sorrows at Darwins feet, but reality is the wars of today are not the result of evolutionary theory. In fact most of the wars and conflicts today in one way or another have been stoked by religions(look it up).

dawin was a christian.

wars are started by some dude. name a war started by religion for religion?

in "today's" timeline.

Does it have to be a declared war? How about conflicts?

CENTER FOR REDUCTION OF RELIGIOUS-BASED CONFLICT

Syria explained: How it became a religious war

Bosnia (Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic), Muslims Fragile peace is holding, due to the presence of peacekeepers.

Côte d’Ivoire (Muslims, Indigenous, Christian) Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces “began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country, or are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants…” A military uprising continued the slaughter in 2002.

Cyprus (Christians & Muslims) The island is partitioned, creating enclaves for ethnic Greeks (Christians) and Turks (Muslims). A UN peace keeping force is maintaining stability.

East Timor (Christians & Muslims) A Roman Catholic country. About 30% of the population died by murder, starvation or disease after they were forcibly annexed by Indonesia (mainly Muslim). After voting for independence, many Christians were exterminated or exiled by the Indonesian army and army-funded militias in a carefully planned program of genocide and religious cleansing. The situation is now stable.


India (Animists, Christians, Hindus, Muslims & Sikhs) Various conflicts that heat up periodically producing loss of life. Christians are regularly attacked in Orissa province by militant Hindu extremists.

Indonesia, province of Ambon (Christians & Muslims) After centuries of relative peace, conflicts between Christians and Muslims started during 1999-JUL in this province of Indonesia. The situation now appears to be stable.

Indonesia, province of Halmahera (Christians & Muslims) 30 people killed. 2,000 Christians driven out; homes and churches destroyed.

Iraq (Kurds, Shiite Muslims, Sunni Muslims, western armed forces) By mid-2006, a small scale civil war, primarily between Shiite and Sunni Muslims started. The situation appears to be steadily improving since the coalition forces have withdrawn from the cities.

Kurdistan (Christians, Muslims) Periodic assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic, & Assyrian Orthodox).

Nigeria (Christians, Animists, & Muslims) Yourubas and Christians in the south of the country are battling Muslims in the north. Country is struggling towards democracy after decades of Muslim military dictatorships. More details

Philippines (Christians & Muslims) A low level conflict between the mainly Christian central government and Muslims in the south of the country has continued for centuries.

Somalia (Wahhabi and Sufi Muslims Sufi Muslims )— a tolerant moderate tradition of Islam are fighting the Shabab who follow the Wahhabi tradition of Islam in a continuing conflict.

South Africa (Animists & “Witches”) Hundreds of persons, suspected and accused of witches practicing black magic, are murdered each year.

Sudan (Animists, Christians & Muslims) Complex ethnic, racial, religious conflict in which the Muslim regime committed genocide against both Animists and Christians in the south of the country. Slavery and near slavery were practiced. A ceasefire was signed in 2006-MAY between some of the combatants. 3 Warfare continues in the Darfur region, primarily between a Muslim militia and Muslim inhabitants.

Thailand (Buddhists & Muslims) Muslim rebels have been involved in a bloody insurgency in southern Thailand — a country that is 95% Buddhist.

Uganda (Animists, Christians, & Muslims) Christian rebels of the Lord’s Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct, enslave and/or raped about 2,000 children a year. 6

Current Religious Conflict Zones
Posted on March 20, 2011