helen, his divine paln is set. What ever happens is becauise of him. So no one has free will, and whatever satan does he does because it is in god's diine plan. He made it, and so forth. So the only reason you typed that is because it was in his divine plan, if he exists. But since god and the divine plan don't, it is the persons fault.

Originally posted by Byrd
Therefore, it IS his fault when things happen that we don't like. That's God's plan. Since he doesn't take action to change things, this means that things are going along the course he ordained for it -- including sending the majority of all humans who ever lived to hell because they didn't worship Jesus.

Is this what you believe?

Originally posted by tututkamen
well there Helen
everybody must be responsible for their actions
on the other hand
if everything happens for a reason, it must certainly be God's reason
for they are not all mine

It happens for a reason because God does not wish any one to go to HELL.......
It happens for a reason because it is our own ''free will'' to either accept God or not to accept Him!!!
God does not force anyone to beleive in Him.........ever body has a choice...every body has a SOUL and the soul links us with God......breath of life...
God does not wish for any one to go to hell...
God has His ways of leading people to Him....but only through making mistakes one can come closer to God....
You think that once someone has had some misfortune in their lives,would try to see things differently!
But NO,
people blame God when something goes wrong in their lives!
Why not look at it a different way.......
Why not see it as a 'sign' from God that He wishes it for the best of us to come closer to Him....
The devil knows that God is the creator.....and therefore convinces everyone that God does not exist.....and he is doing a great job of that!
The devil loves his many followers because he believes that he is the most high and knows that God's plan is working, and what better way to make us believe that he does not exist!!!
God allows for certain things to happen for our benefit....He allows for our 'free will '' to choose whom we want....if we allow 'hate' in our lives,then we chose to follow that path........if we allow to be 'loving' and to forgive others, then God will also forgive us.....

My mum knew a man (a christian ) and this man had cancer....he suffered quite alot and through his suffering, he started to think of God.......the after life...but never occured to him before( i guess to busy with life in general )..although he was a good man, God saw something that people do not........One week before his death.....he saw many things..awake and asleep..he would talk to what he saw, and point ...before his death,he suffered and a priest was called and the man confessed......confession is like a cleansing......it rids you of things that are sins(up to you to believe whatever) it's like going to a psychiatrist.....only diff' is,you dont need to give your money .........
The man died......it is said, that for 40 days,the soul awaits on earth.....(40 days of Christ after the resurrection on earth..sorry abstract! but that is how it was)
Any way.....that is why Christians have a memorial every week for 40 days......the reading of prayers for the dead......as was, and is done today.......it was done by the Old Testament, and is done by the New........

I know many others of the same fate......and suffering is for the best of us........whom God allows it to be.....although it does seem harsh, many dont see it.....
If by our own 'free will' cannot love God, and follow His way, then God gives us a lending hand......because only through suffering.......one can enter heaven.....
Whether it be silent suffering.......mentally
Or physical suffering........all is for the good.......
Hard to swallow for many......but that is the way it is....and ''free will'' is up to the individual....

"free will" and the idea of submitting to God or else, in the same discussion?

God holds the gun of eternal damnation to your head and says submit or be damned! Where's the free will in that?

No thanks...it's a belief you can keep. I'll take mine instead...

Your God wants his creations to suffer? No thanks, I'll take the next god thank you very much....

PEOPLE! His divine plan is it! The reason anything happens is because it was written to happen in his divine plan! So if you don't believe in him, it is because his divine plan has that written in it! There is no free will, he will not do anything to you, for he already knows what you will do because he wrote it to happen. Why would he have you sin in his divine plan which can not change, then send you to hell for it?

No one seems to be getting this. God wrote a divine plan, in it is everything that has and will happen. You can't change it, so no free will. The only reason I am typing this right now is because his divine plan said i would.

it was God's "divine plan" that I stub my toe this morning....

If so, then this guy's got WAY too much time on his hands...

If everything we ever say or do, is set in stone, then what the hell is the point of the illusion that we have a choice? What is the point of being here at all? Is it just for his own amusement? Nope, sorry, but just like all other Christian or religious arguements, it quickly falls apart....

Originally posted by abstract_alao

Originally posted by Byrd
Therefore, it IS his fault when things happen that we don't like. That's God's plan. Since he doesn't take action to change things, this means that things are going along the course he ordained for it -- including sending the majority of all humans who ever lived to hell because they didn't worship Jesus.

Is this what you believe?

Hardly. I'm Wiccan, not Christian.

But she was asking for a Christian explaination, not a non-Christian one (she was railing against Christians who have the practice.)

I was gave her ONE explaination offered by Christian apologists (the Calvinists, who explain the "blaming God" angle.) Given the nature of her question, the old "devil did it" didn't seem to fit, since it denies the absolute soverignity of her God (which she would dispute), so the Calvanist explaination was the best one.

And I thought she'd dismiss the "they don't really mean what you think it does; they're just making noise" argument and start into another cut-and-paste sermon.

So I gave her the Calvanist explaination, which is one of philosophies that founded the modern pentacostal/Biblical literalist movements.

Originally posted by helen670
It happens for a reason because God does not wish any one to go to HELL...

Then why didn't he send Abraham and Jesus to the Chinese? Billions of them have lived and died and don't follow any religion that's even CLOSE to Judaism or Christianity.

...or doesn't God consider the Chinese, the Japanese, the American Indians, the Africans, and the Australian Aborigines to be human?

If he did, why wait 2,000 years (and billions of lives) to save them?

See, some people see the flaw in the divine plan thing. I'm not christian, but that is the christian answer, the divine plan. And yes, it does have to much time on it's hands.

Also, good question. Why did god wait for billions of years, then make humans. Then 30,000-35,000 years later after billions had died and gone to hell because he never told them about christianity, create christianity? If being a christian gets you into heaven, wouldn't that be kind of important to explain to early human????

Originally posted by James the Lesser
See, some people see the flaw in the divine plan thing. I'm not christian, but that is the christian answer, the divine plan. And yes, it does have to much time on it's hands.

Also, good question. Why did god wait for billions of years, then make humans. Then 30,000-35,000 years later after billions had died and gone to hell because he never told them about christianity, create christianity? If being a christian gets you into heaven, wouldn't that be kind of important to explain to early human????

God creates when He wants......
First He created the angels......before mankind,as we know that of what is said in the Old Testament...
When Lucifer wanted to be in place of God ,God ordered him out,and also all the other rebelious angels who became demons,who followed Satan(Lucifer)..to the lower heavens(earth)
God created man in His image for the sole purpose of Angels that fell.....
There is tradition(early church) that all the thousands upon thousands of angels (demons) that fell,will replace the once again all the angels that fell....
Thousands upon thousands is quite alot(it could have meant millions )

God created man straight away...after Lucifer disobeyed and wanted to be the most high....
God created Adam and Eve......to be as one flesh,and to fill the earth....a generation lasting few hundred yrs....
God saw that it was nessasary for mankind to be saved after the disobedience of Adam and eve....so there needed to be a Saviour for the whole world....''The seed of the woman shall crush thy head, and thou shalt strike at the heel(Gen 3:15) That is,from a woman there will come an offspring-the Saviour of the world ,Who will be born of a virgin,will conquer the Devil and save man, but for this, He Himself must suffer.
Right throughout the Old testament, there is signs given of the promise of a Saviour.....that is why many awaited the Saviour...
In paradise, the first offering for sin was animal skins (no animal was killed before that)...
Yes, many died before Jesus Christ had come ....it had to be done gradually....in our time
When people in the Old Testament offered sacrificial lamb....it was done because it pre-figurred the sacrifice of God Himself......the sacrifice of the whole world......the Cross...(and the Cross is used as a defence against demons today,in exorsisms and when one feels scared)
The devil knew of this and that is why he tries so hard to make people not to believe.
Mankind had to be saved only through the Re-birth of a Saviour...because man sinned at the start....man had to be saved as man...God took flesh ...and became man in order to save all mankind...
am i making sense???
In the ''creed'' I beleive in one God,the father almighty,maker of heaven and earth....etc...explains all what Christianity is ....all taken from the Old and New testament....the Nicene Creed is proof of What God stands for...(I have info on that, but it is way too much to write down...google search on Nicene Creed,or any good book shop on the early church will tell you)
We cannot say that it was such and such years for man to be saved....
When Jesus Christ was crucified, He went to hell and redeemed man of the first sin...He spilt His blood and acceptance of the first people again....Free will of one accepting Him.....it is a choice....there is no forcing of one to accept...
there are many passages in the Bible of foreshadowing of things that were to come....
The passing of the Israelites through the Red sea is a foreshadowing of Holy Babtism...Freed by the power of the Devil and slavery to sin.
Journey into Egypt into the promised land..Hebrews came to a place where the water was bitter...Moses showed them a tree....As soon as they had placed the tree in the water ,the water became sweet.
The tree which took away the bitterness from the water was a foreshadowing of the tree of the Cross of Christ,which took away the bitterness of life-sin.
Bread from heaven...''man-na'' or ''what is this''?
Water ....Moses struck a stone cliff with his staff and water flowed from it..
Manna in the desert and water from the stone cliff, which saved the Israelites from death,foreshadowed the true food and drink for us, which is the Body and Blood of Christ.the pre-figuration of Christ Dying for us...
Moses praying with his hands streched out.....like a cross...Christ on the Cross..
There is alot more....but like i said, there is way too much to write.....

Im not sure if that is what you asked?
Im happy to answer any other questions of which i know...Im learning here as well, as i read......

what is so hard to understand helen?? I mean, in the *bible* it *says* that god contols every aspect of life and know of *every little thing* that will happen before it does, meaning that he controls it in some aspect, meaning that he means for some people to "disobey" him and he *means* for people to not believe in jesus so that he can send them all to hell. what is so hard to understand about this when you read it from a book that you hold so highly??? it is in black and white.

Who better to blame then the source of it all?

Originally posted by mirrorsparadise
what is so hard to understand helen?? I mean, in the *bible* it *says* that god contols every aspect of life and know of *every little thing* that will happen before it does, meaning that he controls it in some aspect, meaning that he means for some people to "disobey" him and he *means* for people to not believe in jesus so that he can send them all to hell. what is so hard to understand about this when you read it from a book that you hold so highly??? it is in black and white.

Nothing is so hard to understand!
God does not mean anyone to do anything!
If you want to try drugs, then you are given a choice......YOU DONT HAVE TO TRY drugs!
God did not mean for you to try drugs!
God does not interfere with choice.....
You alone have that choice!
And the Bible i have, is not Black and white!
It is Burgundy covered, with Gold leafed pages........oh,and the writing is in black!

But, Helen -- "free will" means that God is NOT in control and therefore is NOT omniscient.

If God is not omniscient, then he is not "all powerful" and we humans (having free will) are more powerful since we can change his game plan or destroy it completely.

Originally posted by Byrd
But, Helen -- "free will" means that God is NOT in control and therefore is NOT omniscient.

If God is not omniscient, then he is not "all powerful" and we humans (having free will) are more powerful since we can change his game plan or destroy it completely.

um nooooo.....

Free will was given to us out of the Love of God to mankind!
It shows how much respect God has for us Humans.....
It also shows that He wishes all to come to the truth,out of our own ''Free will''
God is in control!
God is Omnicient (Knowing all things)
(1john 3:20,Heb.4:13)
Man can learn many things,
know a great deal,
but no man can know everything.
Man cannot know the future, and cannot hear everything and see everything.

Originally posted by mirrorsparadise
what is so hard to understand helen??


absolutely love the way you think mirror!

...when the Son of Perdition arises and your fate becomes moot, will you blame God or the Anti-Christ?
Will you decide to make a real choice at this time?
Because, it seems alot of us are simply afraid to do just that judging by the level of antagonism on this board towards Jesus and those who profess honest belief in Him. There is so much chatter about who is the A.C. I must assume some here believe He exists.
It seems tolerance extends to anyone BUT those who have faith in Christ. I agree with the poster who said arguing religion is like picking the best invisible friend and yet, if niether can be seen, who is to say one is right or wrong- the one who's faith is standing at the end I suppose. Will your faith in what you believe, be it a deity, yourself, a philosophy or a inanimate object stand up when your day is come?
I think bible believers are the least tolerated group of people on Earth today. There is no room for "Jesus" anywhere any more- did he do something to someone? That being said after reading this for days on end I feel better and can now sleep...