Reincarnated: Past Lives; What if There’s Proof?

FriedBabelBroccoli
Also please avoid the emotional "logic" of reincarnation, it is NOT logic so please just don't answer if that is all you've got.

I wasn't aware you could dictate what other people could say in a thread. There isn't a requirement that people adhere to your version of what "logic" is, so you might want to save yourself some embarrassment by not insisting on your terms.

Having said that I still agree with your major point that it's a leap to extrapolate a "past life" from a dream. I apologize if I'm repeating here. I brought this up sometime recently, the story of a woman who decided she had been a cat in a previous life based on a dream she had of being an Egyptian cat with a haughty attitude in a royal court. I think she was projecting, myself, and that she did not have such a life at all. First of all, cats aren't "haughty." That's a human emotion projected onto an animal. (I've had lots of cats, including four Siamese at once. Don't lecture me on what cats are really like!

Another recent story here is of a person who decided she could tell her past lives by doing her horoscope and finding the planets that were in retrograde motion ("retrograde" is when planets APPEAR to move backwards from the standpoint of Earth because Earth is moving faster than they are. It's like passing a car going 60mph on the freeway when you are doing 70mph. The other car looks like it is in reverse.) She thought she could take the characteristics of those planets and figure out what past lives she had. That's a rather novel approach no professional astrologer would ever take.

My point (and at least part of yours, I think) is that you can't really make the logical leap there. That's "personal" proof, but it isn't corroborative proof and personal proof can't help you much when the issue is proving that reincarnation exists. That's where corroborative proof makes a much stronger case. Explaining how a two-year old knows the name of an obscure aircraft carrier from WW II when all he's seen in the Muppets on TV and his parents have no clue is a very difficult thing to explain away. You can still say he picked up these memories from elsewhere, and that this does not PROVE a past life, but then you are in the terribly awkward position of using a paranormal thing (ESP) to explain why another "paranormal" thing (reincarnation) does not exist.

It's fine if all you want is personal proof based on your own faith, but for me, personally, I want MORE than that. I want to prove, scientifically, that reincarnation (and by extension, the Other Side, survival, and a whole lot of things) is as TRUE as the fact I can see Mt. Rainier out my kitchen window. I think that is important because it will represent the next big step in the evolution of humanity and change our perspective on our present lives completely and in a wholesome way.

But, that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

reply to post by SaturnFX


The meaning behind it is, if God is a fair God, and I think He is, then it would be the utmost "unfair" fate for some people to have a life of luxury with no hardships, and others having a life of struggle, hunger, pain, disabilities, etc.

If we only have one life, and this is how it works, then that would mean that God is definitely an unfair God.

We choose these different situations, parents, friends, etc. before we are born to learn lessons from them.

Some people, after having a really hard life the last time around, will choose an easier life in the future to "get a break" from the harder lessons, but still have some easier lessons to learn, or they just come back to help others learn their lessons. This would be those who seem to never have any problems, or hardships in life.

We choose everything before we come here. Sometimes we get off the path we chose, but when that happens we have our guides and family above that try to influence situations to get us back on track so we can learn what we came here to learn.

Have you ever made a choice that seemed like some outside force was working against it happening every time you turned around? That was your guides trying to tell you that was the wrong way to go.

I have a girlfriend that wanted to marry this man, but every time she planned to go through with it something would happen to throw a wrench in it. This happened over and over.
I told her I didn't think it was meant for her to marry this guy; I could hear her guides screaming at her, "Hey! We're trying to tell you something here! You need to listen to us!!!" But, she didn't listen, and, eventually, she did marry him.

It was only a few months when the trouble began, and to make a long story short, he pawned her things, almost got her thrown in jail for something he did, and he tried to kill her.
Thank god he didn't succeed. She got a divorce after he was sent to prison.
She did not deserve this. She is one of the nicest people you could ever meet, and an upstanding citizen with high morals.
He had her blinded by his manipulating tactics, and false character that he presented to her until they were married, then he showed his "true self".
I'm very happy she finally realized this guy was "the wrong path".

When we are on the life path we chose things will run smoothly, and things we need just seem to fall into our life, or doors open all on their own.

LISTEN and WATCH for the signs. We all have help out there, but we need to pay attention!

reply to post by sled735


There simply cannot be definitive "proof" of reincarnation as long as people, scientists included, know as little about the world as we do. For all we know, and there is much valid evidence supporting this, the majority of everything that is yet unknown to us is unimaginably vast - and different (to our usual expectations about how the world works) - in its manifestations.
Which means that people cannot really make informed decisions about what constitutes "proof".

In the case of reincarnation, for example, not even the mst accurate "memories" of another's lifetime could constitute proof of reincarnation because they could as easily - in fact, more easily - be explained as being the effect of some sort of tapping into a "morphogenetic field", as Sheldrake would put it; or they could be the result of someone latching onto the memory residue of an individual. Or it could be a thousand different things that we know nothing about.

Do the concepts mentioned above actually exist? We don't know for sure.
And why would things happen as described above? We simply don't know.
But they might. The evidence for such hypotheses is certainly no weaker that that presented in favor of reincarnation - especially considering the fact that reincarnation seems to have developed and established itself most strongly in parts of the world where death - and an eventual re-birth - would have been seen as the only options to escape from the caste system (as in India, for example).

We don't know is the one certainty we can have at this point in history.
And it should be kept in mind at all times.

reply to post by AdAstra


This is true, as with all beliefs, be it Christianity, Hinduism, or whatever. One's beliefs are taken on faith that it is real.

That's all we have... faith.

reply to post by sled735


Very well said. : )

AdAstra
reply to post by sled735

 

In the case of reincarnation, for example, not even the mst accurate "memories" of another's lifetime could constitute proof of reincarnation because they could as easily - in fact, more easily - be explained as being the effect of some sort of tapping into a "morphogenetic field", as Sheldrake would put it; or they could be the result of someone latching onto the memory residue of an individual. Or it could be a thousand different things that we know nothing about.

PRECISELY what I was talking about above. Here someone is "explaining" the unproven concept of reincarnation not being provable with the unproven concept of "morphogenetic fields," which hasn't been proved itself. Having read one of Sheldrake's earlier books on the subject I have to say that I can't see how morphogenetic fields apply in this case, but it hardly matters. Using an unproven concept to "explain" another unproven concept is simply avoiding the question. You could use the same argument against--morphogenetic fields. You could invoke demons with as valid a sense of logic.

And further, does NOT knowing about "thousands of things" mean we can't know anything? We may as well stop researching about unknown things because, after all, we don't know "thousands of things." This seems an unduly pessimistic approach that results in a stifling of research, and it isn't really necessary.

The issue here, I think, is what standards of proof to apply, and whether we can elevate the standard commonly applied. We are never going to get to mathematical/logical proof standards. If we accept what "2" is, and what "+" is and what "=" is and what "4" is, then 2+2=4, period. "Logic" is a little different. "If "A" implies "B" and "B" implies "C" then "A" implies "C"--period, end of story. Nothing gets more logical than that. Yet we agree on lots of things that do not have that strict a standard of proof. We don't really know what electricity is, for example, but we manage to harness and use it quite well. No one asks, "Well, is electricity really true?" because practically speaking, it's a moot point.

Standards of proof vary. In criminal court the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt." That isn't "beyond doubt." In civil court the standard is "the preponderance of evidence." The difference is OJ being convicted or not. What I think we're trying to do here is move beyond the "personal" proof to what I am calling "corroborative proof," i.e.: evidence that comes from more than one place.

So when we point out that a two year old just happens to know what a Corsair is, that it has a drop tank, not a bomb, that it flew off an obscure aircraft carrier he can name and was shot down over Iwo Jima, and also the kid remembers the names of his compatriots, at least one of whom is still alive, and you come back and say that isn't proof, that the kid could have gotten this from "morphogenetic fields," then I feel confident in concluding that you will NEVER, under any circumstances, be convinced reincarnation is real and further, I question why you are here.

Here we have three groups of people. One group believes wholeheartedly in reincarnation, pretty much no matter what. They don't need "proof." They believe as an article of faith. So in this group you have Cat Lady and Star Lady who believe as a matter of faith. They don't really need proof and frankly, they aren't helping the conversation in terms of what constitutes proof. To them I say, "Thanks very much for your input."

Then we have a second group of people, and I include myself amongst them, who are looking for proof beyond mere faith, who are also looking for proof that might bear up to some scrutiny. What about Corsair Kid? How do you explain that? In listening to the "explanations" it sounds like the detractors are twisting themselves into pretzels attempting to explain away the over 50 salient points Corsair Kid knew, but shouldn't have.

And these are the third group, those who don't even bother with conventional explanations that don't exist, an example being the kid saw it on TV, etc., and come up with "morphogenetic fields," which is a laughable explanation which, if you know anything about morphogenetic field theory, doesn't even fit. And I'm wondering. Why are you here?

Is it to cram your idea of the impossibility of knowing onto this discussion? Should we just stop and close the thread because, you know, it COULD be "morphogenetic fields" that "explains" why a two year old kid who should barely be able to talk recognizes a Corsair on sight? To me "morphogenetic fields" is right up there with "retrograde motion" in explaining past lives. These are two extremes that don't really bear on the discussion. Both are part of the noise that we have to put up with in attempting to further the discussion.

I am a firm believer in reincarnation and I believe I am the reincarnation of someone in this century. I remember as a child, as my mother and father drove us to church, having 'daydreams' (I like to call them spontaneous past life memories) of myself being this guy with a beard, and glasses on a television program being interviewed by people. Now at this time, I just figured it was me seeing into the future... nothing more.

During my car rides as a child and during these random moments I would get very introspective. It was as if I was living in the moment of that past memory. At age 24, I became increasingly obsessed with the man from which I believe to be reincarnated and viewed his videos on you-tube (he has many). I watched his eyes, the way he walked, talked and it scared me to the core because his mannerisms, walk, talk, even his cadence was similar to mine. There was a familiarity about him that I could not shake.


I do not wish to disclose his name because he is a notable persona. He is not a man loved by all, but he is loved by some. Misjudged by others, and envied and feared by many. But I will say this; If I were to share his name, you would consider the plausibility of my claim because you would not expect anyone to claim this misjudged man as their reincarnation.

reply to post by sled735


Thanks so much for the information. I think I'm lacking in the 20 posts area.

Not to derail the thread I'll add my 2 cents in this reincarnation thread.

I for one am a believer in reincarnation. But I also believe everyone here on this thread is correct. How can that be? Because we are all individuals and we all are on different levels in our walk of life. In my eyes all religions are correct. We're each on the path we all need to be. As you grow spiritually things may change your way of thinking. Just because you change does not mean your right or wrong. We get what we need out of life and keep growing spiritually. I've made many changes in my way of thinking through out my lifetime. This is where I stand right now. Why is it when someone dies that's a Christian they see Jesus and all of a sudden they are brought back to life and tell everyone what they've seen. While on the other side of the world in other religions they claim they see Buddha or In Hinduism, there is Brahman; there is Rama and Krishna, there is Brahma, Vishnu and Maheswara. When these people die they see what they think is their God. They are brought back to life and have their stories. Religions are stepping stones for spiritual growth.

You are where you are because it's what you need. You change when you need more. Life is all about spiritual growth and learning. Sometimes we fall back and other times we move forward. Your beliefs are yours there's no right or wrong, it's what you need at this time for your own spiritual growth.

When I was a child I remembered choosing this life and choosing the lesson I was to learn in this life. I even remember trying to keep a secret to try to remember what my lesson was when I arrived in this life. My secret was the number 38. I remembered everything BUT.... my lesson. We're not suppose to remember but sometimes after many visits you even can figure out how to remember like I did. I could remember everything except my lesson.

I also remembered what TechniXcality remembered. [ In his words .......I was standing with a none descriptive entity starring at the world making a choice to come back. It was as if I needed to prove something or learn somethingbut I had the choice. I also was shown everything that would happen to me but I knew I was going to forget it all if I choose to experience it anyway. So I guess it's obvious which choice I made lol]

This is my experience plus more I also remember 3 other spirits that were also looking with me. We had a conversation about the life I was choosing. I chose a very painful life. I saved the worst lesson for last so to speak. They were worried that I might not make it through my lesson. I was pretty sure I could take it. Meaning I wouldn't take my life. As I was leaving one of the spirits said they would be behind me not right away but they would be there when I needed help. I get the feeling we travel in groups of 4 through our different lives helping each other pass our lessons. I've heard this in different places which goes with my childhood memory.

At 38 my lesson started I lived with level 10 pain from head to toe for two years with no relief. It took me 8 years to find my cure, doctors could not help me in any way shape or form. Why would I choose pain as a lesson? Because when you think of life in terms of forever, never ending. Our life here is so short in the terms of forever it's like a blink of an eye when your looking at eternity. That's why picking a tragic life is not so bad. I learned much about pain and I can now relate with anyone that is suffering. It was a hard lesson but worth the knowledge I gained from it.

I have many more reasons why I believe in reincarnation which I will share later in another post. Dinner is done and my son is calling me to come to eat with his family. See ya later.

reply to post by FraZZleD38


EXACTLY!! Great post, and your views on this are also my own.

(Go welcome some people to ATS in the Intro thread. That will get you your 20 posts quickly. )

schuyler
I wasn't aware you could dictate what other people could say in a thread. There isn't a requirement that people adhere to your version of what "logic" is, so you might want to save yourself some embarrassment by not insisting on your terms.

I apologize if I wasn't clear, but i meant don't give ME that answer. I was not dictating what people can or cannot say. I was making it clear ahead of time that such presentations would immediately be tossed in the bin with all the other pointless drivel.

Having said that I still agree with your major point that it's a leap to extrapolate a "past life" from a dream. I apologize if I'm repeating here. I brought this up sometime recently, the story of a woman who decided she had been a cat in a previous life based on a dream she had of being an Egyptian cat with a haughty attitude in a royal court. I think she was projecting, myself, and that she did not have such a life at all. First of all, cats aren't "haughty." That's a human emotion projected onto an animal. (I've had lots of cats, including four Siamese at once. Don't lecture me on what cats are really like!

Another recent story here is of a person who decided she could tell her past lives by doing her horoscope and finding the planets that were in retrograde motion ("retrograde" is when planets APPEAR to move backwards from the standpoint of Earth because Earth is moving faster than they are. It's like passing a car going 60mph on the freeway when you are doing 70mph. The other car looks like it is in reverse.) She thought she could take the characteristics of those planets and figure out what past lives she had. That's a rather novel approach no professional astrologer would ever take.

My point (and at least part of yours, I think) is that you can't really make the logical leap there. That's "personal" proof, but it isn't corroborative proof and personal proof can't help you much when the issue is proving that reincarnation exists. That's where corroborative proof makes a much stronger case. Explaining how a two-year old knows the name of an obscure aircraft carrier from WW II when all he's seen in the Muppets on TV and his parents have no clue is a very difficult thing to explain away. You can still say he picked up these memories from elsewhere, and that this does not PROVE a past life, but then you are in the terribly awkward position of using a paranormal thing (ESP) to explain why another "paranormal" thing (reincarnation) does not exist.

It's fine if all you want is personal proof based on your own faith, but for me, personally, I want MORE than that. I want to prove, scientifically, that reincarnation (and by extension, the Other Side, survival, and a whole lot of things) is as TRUE as the fact I can see Mt. Rainier out my kitchen window. I think that is important because it will represent the next big step in the evolution of humanity and change our perspective on our present lives completely and in a wholesome way.

But, that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

edit on 3/25/2014 by schuyler because: (no reason given)

Pretty much my sentiments exactly. I was not explaining away one paranormal event with another, but expounding that if such things exist that this is a way in which it could be misinterpreted. I have yet to EVER see any sort of logic based or deductive reasoning as to why such an experience should be interpreted as so many here do. This is extremely poignant in regards to certain participants in this thread who seem to have thrown corroborative evidence to the wind in accepting reincarnation, but then aggressively antagonize others who do the same and come to contrary conclusions.

There must be a method for such determination otherwise it is just religious professions of faith having a wizzing contest.

-FBB

You aren't so much a believer in reincarnation as you are a believer of your own dreams. Imagination is a powerful force.

Aphorism
You aren't so much a believer in reincarnation as you are a believer of your own dreams. Imagination is a powerful force.

Ah, well, that explains it then, and it also explains why dreams are under the category of "personal proof." So much for them. Not that hey don't mean something personally to the dreamers, but....we can all see, based on responses like this, why they really don't hold up to much scrutiny.

But, please explain how Corsair Boy (vid previous)

1. Knew a Corsair by sight at age 2.
2. Knew the difference between a bomb and a drop tank.
3. Knew the (very obscure) name of a baby flattop he says flew off of.
4. Knew the exact name of another pilot on board at the same time.
5. Spotted where "he" was shot down, corroborated by #4 above.
6. Named "The Japanese" as those who shot him down.
7. Knew his former name.

Knew about fifty (50) other salient points about the WW II pilot and his experiences.

Now let's not cop out and claim "He saw it on TV" or "His Mommy told him." unless you have some specific evidence, and hopefully you won't resort to "morphogenic fields." And after this particular account we've got several dozen more from all over the world that are equally enigmatic.

OK. Go!

reply to post by FraZZleD38

You are where you are because it's what you need. You change when you need more. Life is all about spiritual growth and learning. Sometimes we fall back and other times we move forward. Your beliefs are yours there's no right or wrong, it's what you need at this time for your own spiritual growth.

Yes. That.

Thanks for being here. Get your 20 in asap!!

We need you!!

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

I was making it clear ahead of time that such presentations would immediately be tossed in the bin with all the other pointless drivel. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

(What's with the new "see more at" tag? Anyway, cool.)

I don't understand what you're on about, "FBB". Presentations are only immediately tossed in the bin when people are scoffers and have their minds closed to begin with.

You and Aphorism seem to be on the same wavelength, though!!

For my part, though, I don't get why so skeptical and arrogantly dismissive? Or am I reading your (the collective 'your') posts incorrectly?

sled735
reply to post by FraZZleD38

 

EXACTLY!! Great post, and your views on this are also my own.

(Go welcome some people to ATS in the Intro thread. That will get you your 20 posts quickly.

)

Thanks for the advice I was able to IM TechniXcality finally!!!
I wish to compare notes....lol.

BuzzyWigs
reply to post by FraZZleD38

 

You are where you are because it's what you need. You change when you need more. Life is all about spiritual growth and learning. Sometimes we fall back and other times we move forward. Your beliefs are yours there's no right or wrong, it's what you need at this time for your own spiritual growth.

Yes. That.

Thanks for being here. Get your 20 in asap!!

We need you!!

I got my 20!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YIPPIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BuzzyWigs
reply to post by someoneinnyc

 

Wow that story gave me chills.
Did you ever tell the mother about the queen and flowers thing?

That sounds very credible to me for reincarnation.

I did not tell the mother about the man because I didn't want her think I'm crazy and never walk past there again. Also, sometimes the girl was with a sitter and not the mom. It was only 3 or four times that I saw her. The first time I wouldn't take the flower she got so upset and she would be so happy when I took the flower. I doubt she would act in the same way if she saw me now, it's been a number of years. They say young children begin to lose past life memory as they get older.

reply to post by SaturnFX

Edgar Cayce discussed something called the akashic records. Basically a universal database where every thought, action, word, etc is stored..you can then tap into this (and ultimately someones life) through whatever. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Really? Mind=blown. I've been having that theory for a little while now and this is the first I've heard of the akashic records. Going to read up on it now.

BuzzyWigs
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

 

I was making it clear ahead of time that such presentations would immediately be tossed in the bin with all the other pointless drivel. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

(What's with the new "see more at" tag? Anyway, cool.)

I don't understand what you're on about, "FBB". Presentations are only immediately tossed in the bin when people are scoffers and have their minds closed to begin with.
You and Aphorism seem to be on the same wavelength, though!!
For my part, though, I don't get why so skeptical and arrogantly dismissive? Or am I reading your (the collective 'your') posts incorrectly?

edit on 3/25/2014 by BuzzyWigs because: not FFB, FBB....sorry, FBB!

Arrogantly dismissive?

Go through my post history in the occult section, you might actually find I am quite versed on the topic and have actually pursued it in the past. Yet I keep coming to the same barrier which is not addressed with people getting upset that I wont just take the matter on faith. Oh and I may or may not know a thing or two about wavelengths in EM spectrum which all was largely defined by a famous alchemist known for calculus, gravity, and a symbolic apple falling from a tree and striking his head (and yes a circle with a cross in it is intimately related to the behavior of light if you know your right hand rule and square law). Wink wink nudge nudge . . . .

How many of you attempting past life regressions have actually attempted to exert your own agency?
How many have actually experimented with the phenomena?

As for the see more attachment, IDK, it could be that I have finally ticked off enough member of ATS to have earned a special tag.

-FBB

FraZZleD38

TechniXcality
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

The akashic records, are just a mystical interpretation of Carl Jungs collective unconcious. Serendipity, meaning in chance are all very real. Just as real as apathy. I could say a lot on this and i don't know why, but i remember a dream perhaps; but it occured when i was really young.It may be a memory, regardless i was standing with a none discriptive entity starring at the world making a choice to come back. It was as if i needed to prove something or learn something but i had the choice. I also was shown everything that would happen to me but i knew i was going to forget it all if i choose to experince it anyway. so i guess it's obviouse which choice i made lol

I sent you a message I hope I did it right. I'm sorta new on this site and haven't figured out how it works entirely. Anyways, I also remember choosing this life. I need to compare notes with you because it sounds like you remember what I remember.

I sent you a message back you should be able to respond now. if you sent me a message i still havent recieved it check your messages...