Police video of killing an illegal camper.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


The issue of judgement and terminal lack of it for those police officers isn't in the last 30 seconds of that poor guys life. It's in the hours leading up to that moment, that had those cops surrounding him with 'assault rifles' up and ready to tear him apart.

Heck, just the difference of having handguns over the high power long guns may tend to turn back tactical considerations in a way that see more people come out of these engagements alive. Who knows...but how it ended up was not defensible, IMO. Either by the last bad decision, or the chain to get there, it just wasn't the way a man should have died. Not in the United States I know, and this is happening on a regular basis anymore.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


i dont doubt that he was dangerous.

but we have these amazing technology's called "non lethal" that were used for about a fraction of a second before the guy was shot 6 times with assault weapon ammunition.

i do not care where you come from thats just insanely unnecessary for a guy with a knife in his backpack.

If he was actually arrested he would serve a few years. death penalty is no where near this one.

reply to post by Biigs


I've stated my case clearly, countless times. I'm under no illusions that anyone here is going to side with me on the issue, and quite frankly I don't care. People on ATS have issues with authority and while they are busy bitching about "TPTB" and the "MSM" they can't be bothered to pull their own heads out of their asses long enough to realize that not all cops enjoy shooting people, and not all authority figures are in it just to tell you what to do.

If you can't be bothered to actually comprehend what I've had to say thus far, then there really is no point in discussing it. Clearly, there is no middle ground.

reply to post by Biigs


I agree with you...and the issue was getting onto a hillside where they had no choice but to stand there looking silly, advance into an all or nothing confrontation entirely of the cops choosing to initiate or...perhaps...fire the brains instead of guns and wait until the camper there came down from the hillside, instead of how this came out.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


they should have sent in the dog and or tazed him while keep the weapons trained on him.

simply shooting him is completely insane.

reading this report and seeing the video has really shat on my day.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


You refuse to accept the fact the police did anything wrong. You continue to say that they had no other choice when they did, even on video you can see that officers life was not in danger. The man never made a move, you are right no one will side with you because this one really was senseless.
You can hear some one say Booyah, some one there enjoyed it I am willing to bet that it wasn't that guy that got shot
If they don't enjoy shooting then why was it their first option?

Do you think a man needs to get shot by a bean bag 3 times and have a dog sent on him and have his hand broke after he just got shot possibly more then once by an assault rifle, possibly center mass?
I am sure you are aware of how a 5.56 reacts once the round enters the body, a man is not doing much of anything after a couple of those. They fired 6, fairly close
Reason a failure drill is 2 the chest and either one to the head/pelvic area. The center mass shots should do the trick, the third one is how nice you want to be

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Biigs

 

I agree with you...and the issue was getting onto a hillside where they had no choice but to stand there looking silly, advance into an all or nothing confrontation entirely of the cops choosing to initiate or...perhaps...fire the brains instead of guns and wait until the camper there came down from the hillside, instead of how this came out.

Why do you keep calling him a camper? It wasn't a call over some guy camping. He was a violent offender with a history of assaulting police. At least be honest about it.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


why are you defending the police on this?

you watched the video, he did NOT pose any threat, sure he didnt want to be arrested, but to be shot and killed?

How can you even slightly rationalize it?

Sremmos80
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

You refuse to accept the fact the police did anything wrong. You continue to say that they had no other choice when they did, even on video you can see that officers life was not in danger. The man never made a move, you are right no one will side with you because this one really was senseless.
You can hear some one say Booyah, some one there enjoyed it I am willing to bet that it wasn't that guy that got shot
If they don't enjoy shooting then why was it their first option?

Thats not true at all. I have admitted the police can always handle things better. The fact a man is dead is proof that the situation could have been handled better. That is not why I am having this discussion. I am having this discussion because YOU PEOPLE think the police are always in the wrong, and no matter what the assailant does, he's innocent.

I find your stance on self defense incredibly hypocritical, because if it's the cops, it's not ok no matter what, but if it's you and gun control and blah blah blah it's all about your right to self defense. You're hypocrites. That simple.

Biigs
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

why are you defending the police on this?

you watched the video, he did NOT pose any threat, sure he didnt want to be arrested, but to be shot and killed?

How can you even slightly rationalize it?

I've explained it a number of times, in very clear language and using logic. It's not my fault you are biased and can't grasp why I feel the police were justified.

I do not jump on the "#&$ the police" bandwagon that is ATS.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by DeadSeraph


i accept your argument and i dont mind discussing things.

I simply dont understand how you cant watch that video and think that the cops where right to shoot and kill the man.

he did not endanger anyone.

he didnt hurt anyone.

he had no hostages.

his only weapon was a sheathed knife that he never drew, which i carry a knife most of the time and the thought of being killed for simply having it and excising my rights is just unfathomable.

That guy is dead. He, above questioning the cops, did nothing.

Hes #ing dead jim.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


The OP reports it as illegally camping. He is in a rural area (I think I know where, actually) in the foothills outside Albuquerque and apparently is shouldering a pack with...camping gear.

I call him a camper because he is, by all appearances, camping. Probably illegally....and he could have been Charlie Manson on a vacation for all his background mattered. Was he a threat to the life of a police officer at the moment they shot him to death? No. He was not within arms reach to kill a cop, when they executed him. That's my take. Now we can take 1,000 other factors into account, but they don't change 2 questions. What caused them to plan out an arrest of someone like this, with enough firepower to hit a crack house on a Friday night? ....WHY did they have to throw a grenade toward his feet when he was calm, apparently complaint, and at THAT moment, FAR from any other person or their dog, to be any threat? That initiated the violence......not what came after. The flash gren.

Why?

That's what matters...and I'm far from anti-cop. I'm usually prone to lean toward seeing it from the cop's perspective. However, these weren't even patrol cops walking into something cold and acting out of improvisation. This was planned enough to be geared for the short hike with long rifles to put the guy down if he didn't play along.

The MOMENT he turns his back, the one on the right takes aim at his back. less than a minute later, a grenade has gone off, the dog sent in and the man is down and shot. All....without him ever having been armed beyond an edged weapon requiring arms length to hurt anyone.

Are they professionals or just marginally better than who they shot? Professional sure isn't the term THAT bunch can be described as.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


he was just hiking.

It's a side note, but since the background of the guy on the hillside deemed him unworthy of patience to simply wait out......Lets certainly be fair here in noting one of the shooters has his own issues of background.

One of the officers who was involved, Keith Sandy has a notable history in New Mexico law enforcement. APD hired Sandy in 2007 after he was fired by New Mexico State Police over the Wackenhut scandal. Sandy was accused of fraud for making money doing private security work while on the clock for State Police.

When Sandy was hired by APD, the department said he would be a civilian employee and he wouldn’t have a gun or a badge. However, Sandy quickly rose through the department, landing on the ROPE Team, which goes after repeat offenders or some of the city’s most dangerous criminals.

Source

That story is a local outlet, last night, and quite detailed. It makes me wonder more, not less, what waiting him out would have hurt in this situation? Ahh well... They can't even get ahold of any family for the man. Maybe he won't even be missed... Not that important then. Except to him, of course.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


that is interesting background, but i dont think that a little bit of fraud makes you a murderer.

They ganged up on the guy and got inpatient.

They ran out of time and shot him in the back, 6 times. I dont think theres any amount of background checks that could have prevented this.

It is simply a case of group mentality and trigger happy.

I cant imagine what his family are going through if they watch this video.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Look my man, I lament the fact the guy is dead. I really do. It's not like I am trying to say he deserved to die, because he didn't. I'm sure every officer involved in his death feels the same way. What I am trying to point out, is that under police procedure and even in most peoples minds as to what self defense is, the actions taken were justifiable. Could they have been better planned? sure. Could they have been better executed? Absolutely. But in the end, I do not feel it was murder, given the circumstances. Not even for a second, after watching the video countless times.

DeadSeraph
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

the actions taken were justifiable. Could they have been better planned? sure. Could they have been better executed? Absolutely. But in the end, I do not feel it was murder, given the circumstances. Not even for a second, after watching the video countless times.

i hope you dont own a gun.

reply to post by Biigs

that is interesting background, but i dont think that a little bit of fraud makes you a murderer.

Again, we agree.

Background of the guy they shot had come up in terms of context to how he was treated ...and in so far as that comes in, then the background of one making that judgement call seems perfectly fair, eh?

In truth, backgrounds all around really had little to do with the sequence of events the video and longer stories appearing now describe. You're right on that. It was getting dark, he was GOING to come off that hillside (gee..I recall hearing words like that once before, on a hillside in Idaho) and by goodness, he DID come off the hill, didn't he?

Biigs

DeadSeraph
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

the actions taken were justifiable. Could they have been better planned? sure. Could they have been better executed? Absolutely. But in the end, I do not feel it was murder, given the circumstances. Not even for a second, after watching the video countless times.

i hope you dont own a gun.

That isn't any of your business, nor is it relevant to the thread.

DeadSeraph

Biigs

DeadSeraph
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

the actions taken were justifiable. Could they have been better planned? sure. Could they have been better executed? Absolutely. But in the end, I do not feel it was murder, given the circumstances. Not even for a second, after watching the video countless times.

i hope you dont own a gun.

That isn't any of your business, nor is it relevant to the thread.

i completely disagree.