Ben Hur, slavery and Jesus

So 41 is told to go back to his oar and the battle is about to begin. Mt Hur is stuck in the bows of a boat and destined for a drowning, slavery reigns and Rome is at the peak her power.

Cut to the old testament and the teaching of slavery, what kind of God allows, seemingly endorses slavery. Atheists and God haters have attacked the Abrahamic God and believers for years over slavery, and seemingly deservedly so.

But is it justified?

Well I could go on revealing the plot of Ben Hur, instead I will cut to the chase.

If Jesus called for an end to slavery then there would have been a slave rebellion causing thousands of deaths, the secular world would have blamed Jesus for a mass slaughter.

Funny isnt it, its right before your eyes and still some dont see it

Sadly slavery is real today


Yeah I have left a lot out and I expect questions and arguments, thats to be expected.
We dont live 2000+ years ago. Think about that before replying


Slavery is wrong, killing/dying is worse. That was the message

What I take away from your post is : Slavery is wrong
It was and still is wrong. Point taken.

God I think lets us do "our thing" right or wrong. He does NOT micro-manage..
So it would seem.

What I am missing or missed is your intent.
Are you telling us you feel there is no God?
or
How can there be a God if he allows Slavery?

I think the : "If there is a God", why does/did he let xxxxxx happen?
That is the question that has been asked sense the dawn of time.
Hence the micro manage point.

DogMeat
What I take away from your post is : Slavery is wrong
It was and still is wrong. Point taken.

God I think lets us do "our thing" right or wrong. He does NOT micro-manage..
So it would seem.

What I am missing or missed is your intent.
Are you telling us you feel there is no God?
or
How can there be a God if he allows Slavery?

I think the : "If there is a God", why does/did he let xxxxxx happen?
That is the question that has been asked sense the dawn of time.
Hence the micro manage point.

edit on 22-3-2014 by DogMeat because: (no reason given)

and thats a valid point, xxxxxx happens because some want it to happen, want power control and money.
God allows humanity to choose, good bad or otherwise.

Jesus, who was God, told believers to accept slavery (Corinthians goes in to detail) rather than cause harm.

Slavery is, was and always be a human condition.

Why does God allow it, because He wants us to be gods, He wants us to choose love by freewill, not coercion.

borntowatch
Slavery is wrong, killing/dying is worse. That was the message

That would be like saying the Nazi attempt to take over the planet was wrong.
But fighting to stop them is worse because people would die.

Slavery is wrong, and some things are worth risking your life to make end. Slavery is one of them.
To fight and die for the right thing is sometimes necessary.

reply to post by borntowatch


Did you know that most likely there were no Jewish slaves in Egypt? And there is no archeological evidence supporting the Exodus of the Bible.
Interesting read from a Rabbi:
Did the Exodus Really Happen?

And Ben Hur was gay. (Not really relevant to the whole slavery issue, but is an inflammatory topic amongst the christian right)
Gore Vidal's spat with Charlton Heston over gay 'Ben-Hur' subtext

Point being, most of what we think we know is a lie.

Oh and another somewhat humorous spin on slavery. ..But maybe...


If you cant watch:

“Of course, of course slavery is the worst thing that ever happened. Of course it is, every time it’s happened. Black people in America, Jews in Egypt, every time a whole race of people has been enslaved, it’s a terrible, horrible thing, of course, but maybe.
Maybe every incredible human achievement in history was done with slaves. Every single thing where you go, “how did they build those pyramids?” They just threw human death and suffering at them until they were finished.

FlyersFan

borntowatch
Slavery is wrong, killing/dying is worse. That was the message

That would be like saying the Nazi attempt to take over the planet was wrong.
But fighting to stop them is worse because people would die.

Slavery is wrong, and some things are worth risking your life to make end. Slavery is one of them.
To fight and die for the right thing is sometimes necessary.

Thats a valid point
I cant disagree, I have chosen to fight for my rights and defended myself legally

But did Jesus, did Jesus stand up for Himself when His rights were infringed, when He was going to die?

This is not an argument, just a question.

The Nazi attempt to take over the planet had nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus, Jesus was talking to Christians, the majority of those fighting against Hitler were not Christian...maybe.

I dont know the balance, I am just a simple person, still learning.

Its tricky.

watchitburn
reply to post by borntowatch

 

Did you know that most likely there were no Jewish slaves in Egypt? And there is no archeological evidence supporting the Exodus of the Bible.
Interesting read from a Rabbi:
Did the Exodus Really Happen?

And Ben Hur was gay. (Not really relevant to the whole slavery issue, but is an inflammatory topic amongst the christian right)
Gore Vidal's spat with Charlton Heston over gay 'Ben-Hur' subtext

Point being, most of what we think we know is a lie.

Oh and another somewhat humorous spin on slavery. ..But maybe...

If you cant watch:

“Of course, of course slavery is the worst thing that ever happened. Of course it is, every time it’s happened. Black people in America, Jews in Egypt, every time a whole race of people has been enslaved, it’s a terrible, horrible thing, of course, but maybe.
Maybe every incredible human achievement in history was done with slaves. Every single thing where you go, “how did they build those pyramids?” They just threw human death and suffering at them until they were finished.

there are slaves in the city I live in doing manual labour for next to nothing.
Israel, Egypt?...where I live now, Sewing shirts and building houses and picking strawberry's.
Reality.

Oh and by the way, thanks for the breakdown on the youtube link, that was very kind. I cant watch it so i appreciate your effort.
Wish more people done the same

You also have to understand that the slavery in Roman times was different than the slavery we are raised to think of. Slavery in the Roman empire ran the gamut from malnourished, poorly treated slaves to extremely rich and well treated, highly educated slaves who could and did either buy their freedom or gain their freedom from their owners. They sold themselves into slavery against the hope that upon attaining freedom, they and their children would gain the citizenship from their master.

When Jesus spoke of slavery, he was speaking of this kind of slavery. He also warned people when He came that he did not come to remake the world although he did not come to make it a peaceful place. He came to teach how we should be and how we should treat one another. What we did with those teachings was up to us.

You'll notice as you read that most of His teachings have little to do with law and more to do with interpersonal behavior than to do with structuring society.

ketsuko
You also have to understand that the slavery in Roman times was different than the slavery we are raised to think of. Slavery in the Roman empire ran the gamut from malnourished, poorly treated slaves to extremely rich and well treated, highly educated slaves who could and did either buy their freedom or gain their freedom from their owners. They sold themselves into slavery against the hope that upon attaining freedom, they and their children would gain the citizenship from their master.

When Jesus spoke of slavery, he was speaking of this kind of slavery. He also warned people when He came that he did not come to remake the world although he did not come to make it a peaceful place. He came to teach how we should be and how we should treat one another. What we did with those teachings was up to us.

You'll notice as you read that most of His teachings have little to do with law and more to do with interpersonal behavior than to do with structuring society.

If you dont mind, and thanks for the clarification Mr ketsuko, can I change one thing

ketsuko
You also have to understand that the slavery in Old Testament times was different than the slavery we are raised to think of. Slavery in the Roman empire ran the gamut from malnourished, poorly treated slaves to extremely rich and well treated, highly educated slaves who could and did either buy their freedom or gain their freedom from their owners.

Your point is valid and valued

Double sorry

triple, double sorry

DogMeat
What I take away from your post is : Slavery is wrong
It was and still is wrong. Point taken.

God I think lets us do "our thing" right or wrong. He does NOT micro-manage..
So it would seem.

What I am missing or missed is your intent.
Are you telling us you feel there is no God?
or
How can there be a God if he allows Slavery?

I think the : "If there is a God", why does/did he let xxxxxx happen?
That is the question that has been asked sense the dawn of time.
Hence the micro manage point.

edit on 22-3-2014 by DogMeat because: (no reason given)

The question is, when did slavery become wrong?

About the time when John Newton wrote Amazing Grace. It was Christians who took the first stand against slavery. The Barbary Coast pirates made slaves even up until the Barbary Coast Wars. BTW, they broke their treaty with the US and we are still "at war" with them.

So when did it become wrong? With all of the cultures that had or still have slavery, and you can't blame Islamic slavery today on the Christian god, then why isn't it wrong in Islamic countries? We say it is wrong, they say it is right.

Moral relativism when it comes to slavery. How many children are sold in the sex slavery industry from Thailand? That's a Buddhist country.

The problem is assuming that everyone chooses to follow the Christian God, they don't. So applying moral relevance to the Christian God and followers means that you are validating the Christian God as a moral superior, because you aren't condemning the practice found among other religions.

So when did it become wrong?

Well here is a thought
is slavery wrong?

Providing that the slave is treated with love, compassion and respect?

That was what Jesus asked of those who served Him and had slaves

borntowatch
Well here is a thought
is slavery wrong?

Providing that the slave is treated with love, compassion and respect?

That was what Jesus asked of those who served Him and had slaves

That would be a matter of moral relativism.

Quakers preached against slavery, and yet a few Quakers had slaves. While people are constantly reminded about white people who had slaves, when presented with the historical documents about blacks that had slaves, there seems to a flip in justification for why they had slaves or even if their slaves could be considered slaves.

We seem to have a double standard when it comes to the issue of historical slavery. All cultures had slaves, but it's wrong only for those in the Bible? Yet, Ben Hur was about slaves of the Romans. Could we say maybe perhaps Zeus, Apollo and Jupiter were evil gods for endorsing slavery?

Ben Hur was a novel written by Lew Wallace, the same who wrote the Tarzan series. Lew Wallace was also a General in the Union during the Civil War, so we could assume his anti-slavery rhetoric was based on political reasons. But he did vaunt a white man above those animals of the African jungles. Lew Wallace then went on to become governor of New Mexico.

If we really look at what he is saying, slavery was a part of life for Ben Hur, but Tarzan somehow justified white dominion over Africa. That's a double message.

watchitburn
reply to post by borntowatch

 

Did you know that most likely there were no Jewish slaves in Egypt? And there is no archeological evidence supporting the Exodus of the Bible.
Point being, most of what we think we know is a lie.

Yes; I do know that; the Hebrews were honored guests of the Egyptians, and were never enslaved (in fact were given every opportunity to study within their temples (to a degree); when they found what they sought, (slole) they left of their own cognesience Free to go. Moses is pure of a Metro Goldwin Meyer 'in technicolor' construct. Unfortunately they did not have all of Khems teachings so in leaving too soon practiced a belief system not fully formed (this is/was dangerous; where is the Ark they slole) so is/was their fate to this day. This idea that the very wealthy Egyptians had slaves at all is preposterous. They were 6th dimensional Sirians and had everything they wished for as had esoteric knowledge/power; I find it funny that Moses supposedly wrote 5 books of the Torah, Abraham/Yahweh as the mouthpiece/microphone. Moses, a snake in Egypts grass planted as a spy? or completely scripted nonsense. Those Hirogliphs depicting the building of the pyramids were actually just depicting repairs made (not the actual building of) because those structures are not 5000 years old more like 14,000 years in age; placed there in an eyeblink overlay as a fully formed civilization in 12,000BC. No one built those structures they were imagined into being; just like the Ancient Maya temples, fully constructed civilizations realized here stepped down, from the 6th, or 5th dimension to the 3rd. POOF! it exists. If you look at the Ancient Maya, first cause 200BC (it was a fully functional operating civilization; there is no evidence of a predynastic civilization even hinting to a coupling of ANYTHING prior); these Maya appeared out of nothing from nowhere fully formed; depictions of human sacrifices to 'god's upon their temples is not what you have been led to believe. They abhored this practice (and so the warnings of doing such things depicted upon the reliefs on the stone temples); misinterpreted by modern archeologists. The next 1400 years including the classic etc to this day another story; as they have a history of the past as told in their pictograms (at least what is/was left after Catholic Monks burned their Codecies). Cant vouch for the Aztecs or Mixtecs; they came much later.

Most instances of slavery referred to and condoned by God in the Bible had nothing to do with "owning" people.

Most of the time, it was due to a credit sort of situation.

Example :

X person wants Y amount of land from Z, landowner.

X doesn't have the money necessary to purchase this plot of land.

Z tells X that he will give him the piece of land, provided that X works for Z for a period of no more than seven years


It isn't like Z owns X, but X is his servant.


God doesn't condone the owning of other people...

reply to [url= by graphuto[/url]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6)

etc etc etc

read much?

Prezbo369
reply to [url= by graphuto[/url]

 

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6)

etc etc etc

read much?

And the first words are IF and HOWVER if,

That doesn't mean condoning, it means IF and HOWEVER.

That means IF you are determined to buy slaves, THEN this is how you should treat them.

Read much, etc. etc.?

The preferable was not to own slaves, but if you think you must then this is how you treat them.

Do you get it how Moses was giving these laws to people who had just been slaves, contrary to what people like an above named poster claims. Yes, purchasing of people happened. But if you think you must have slaves...

Read more words.

reply to post by WarminIndy

The preferable was not to own slaves, but if you think you must then this is how you treat them.

Really!???

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

Owning slaves was, according to the Bible, a gift bestowed on the Hebrews by their God, so I DO think that in their culture it was preferable to own many slaves.

windword
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

The preferable was not to own slaves, but if you think you must then this is how you treat them.

Really!???

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.[/b[ 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

Owning slaves was, according to the Bible, a gift bestowed on the Hebrews by their God, so I DO think that in their culture it was preferable to own many slaves.

How many times do you guys miss the IF in your quotes?