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Xcathdra
reply to post by khimbar
I did, as did the other poster. The original results were released by Crimean / Russian official's. Those numbers created a 123% vote percentage in Sevastopol. When that information came to light, Russia / Crimea changed the numbers to drop the percentage.
They did not bother correcting it until they got caught themselves. To me its nothing but them covering up the rigged elections. Just as they got caught doing the same in Georgia.. Compare the 2 incidents and see just hot exact they are compared to one another.edit on 22-3-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)
khimbar
Oh right, of course.
The Russians changed the numbers after a blogger (who later posted a correction and a video proving the number he'd posted was incorrect) rumbled them?
khimbar
And then they went back in time, and made Malyshev make the speech again this time giving the right number so no one would notice?
Why would Russia care about a coup in Ukraine if their sole issue was with Crimea?
CharlieSpeirs
What you have done is label me Pro-Russia...
Which okay if it's the West or Russia, I trust Russia more and would never deny it!!!
But in this particular instance, I am Pro-Crimea...
& if the tables turned and Russia backed a Nazi coup, and US Soldiers left their base to protect their Citizens I'd be sticking up for the West!!!
CharlieSpeirs
But this isn't about the West & Russia as so many would love it to be...
It's about what the Crimean's wanted...
CharlieSpeirs
Now as for your query, Crimea was under Ukrainian Law & Constitution...
But they also have their own Constitution for times like this...
& via that Constitution they can call for a referendum!!!
CharlieSpeirs
Now as for Russian invasion, that's an impossibility when they have Bases in Crimea...
Their incursion into Ukraine & Kiev is harder to defend, & I wouldn't want to anyways, they can fight their own battles!!!
CharlieSpeirs
My point has solely been about the legality of Crimea's decision to break away!!!
CharlieSpeirs
I won't go into too much detail with hypotheticals, I'll keep it short...
The US has Bases within England, now if tonight for any reason the Far Right of the spectrum took over in a Coup, I wouldn't only defend US troops leaving their bases to defend this Land... I'd be pleading with them to do so!!!
It just so happens the shoe is on the other foot, so I respect what Crimea have done, & Russia for defending them!!!p
CharlieSpeirs
I have detailed as to why it was legal previously, not to debate, & not to repeat every time somebody disagrees with International Law...
I did it to state my opinion, & to actually define International Law...
Unlike the Media & Politicians who keep saying the words... But haven't mentioned which International Law once... Not once!!!Peace X!
CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by Xcathdra
Why would Russia care about a coup in Ukraine if their sole issue was with Crimea?
Missed this part!
Russia didn't, neither do I care if they did!!!
Crimea did care & refused to be left under the rule of those who took over...
Hence the Declaration of Independence, the call for Referendum & finally the Referendum itself...
All Crimean Security Council doing, not Russia!!!
Peace X!
mangust69
★ better learn the truth late than neveredit on 22/3/14 by mangust69 because: (no reason given)
Xcathdra
reply to post by khimbar
Are you suggesting that Russian media wont do what the Russian government tells them? Do you think Russian media will refuse to comply with orders given from Moscow as to what they can and cannot report, let alone how that report is done?
If that were possible, we would not have this debate as the numbers could have been checked and cross checked by different media groups in different countries with different ideologies.
That did not occur. Only Russian media had inside access.
Yes I believe if they are told to report something they will no questions asked. If they are told to fix an error, they will. As they did in this case and just as north Korea did when the uncle was executed. North Korean media removed his from all previous archive footage. North Korea was one of the countries that supported Russian actions in Crimea.
Since they, Crimea, are starting to tell Tartars they are illegally squatting and must be moved. If they suffer the same treatment they did under the Soviet Union, you would be ok with Turkey invading Crimea to protect Ethnic Tartars?
To an extent - without detailed information we don't really know what Crimea wanted because we don't know who was allowed to vote in the Crimean referendum. We don't know what law was used as the base for the referendum.
Crimea has a special section of its own in the Ukraine Constitution that recognized certain areas crimea had control over. LOCAL elections and federal elections are specified. Any Crimean law that conflicts with Ukraine's, Ukraine's supersedes it (just like the supremacy clause in our Constitution here in the US).
Crimea is prohibited from requesting outside military assistance - only Kiev can request it.
From day 1 his justification was based on Ukraine's constitution and supposed violations of it. If the argument you give for Crimea were valid, then Ukraine's constitution, let alone events in Kiev, would never have been a factor in his decision.
I noticed you left our East and South Ukraine - Are you ok with Russia invading those areas?
CharlieSpeirs
Yes I would if this is in fact the case and they are under threat...
CharlieSpeirs
I've ears contrary though that all Crimean's will be treated fairly including Ukrainian troops still in Crimea!!!
CharlieSpeirs
We do know, the Security Council didn't want to be under the rule of the unelected Coup leaders of Ukraine...
The law is from their Constitution which can at anytime call for a Republic Referendum!
CharlieSpeirs
The Ukrainian Constitution is contradictory within its first Chapter...
But that aside Crimea has a separate Constitution as an Autonomous Republic...
CharlieSpeirs
Yes it would be the case that Ukrainian Law supersedes Crimean... if the Government hadn't been overthrown...
Those who took power... Crimea refused to recognize them as the Authority...
CharlieSpeirs
Hence their Declaration of Independence!!! In line with the UN Charter re:Kosovo!!!
CharlieSpeirs
Right, so Texas cannot call for Military Assistance unless D.C does it for them???
No of course not which is why Russian military left base to protect a Republic which has been more than 50% Russian since before 2001!!!
CharlieSpeirs
The best I can do is tell you Ukraine's Constitution, Chapter 1 says specifically the People can change Constitutional problems and the State cannot tell them no, it cannot be usurped... But a month long protests was fruitless and in fact led to the bloodshed of many people...
If that's not unconstitutional I can't help I'm afraid!!!
TITLE I - ARTICLE 5
Article 5. Ukraine shall be a republic.
The people shall be the bearer of sovereignty and the sole source of power in Ukraine. The people shall exercise power directly or through the state authorities and local self-government bodies.
The right to determine and change the constitutional order in Ukraine shall belong exclusively to the people and shall not be usurped by the State, its bodies, or officials.
No one shall usurp the State power.
CharlieSpeirs
No... And so far as I know they're not inhabited by more than 50% Russian people!!!
CharlieSpeirs
I never said I wouldn't engage in hypotheticals...
I said I would keep mine as short as possible!!!
CharlieSpeirs
& it wasn't flawed either...
I spoke for England specifically, not the UK... But both analogies are exactly the same you just switched the Far Right for the Scots!!!
CharlieSpeirs
We'll never agree on everything, but it's ATS so I don't expect to
I do however look forward to reading your Thread, thanks!!!
Peace X!
khimbar
Of course. If only that one pesky blogger hadn't see it eh?
I will hold you to that then.
The Crimean / Russian government has already announced Tartars who are "squatting" will be moved elsewhere, although they did not elaborate in the announcement of where that will be.
The referendum was illegal.
Secondly, if Crimea was as people are trying to make it out to be, they would not need to hold a referendum
Not really no its not contradictory. Secondly there is a complete section for Crimea including what they can and cannot do. I recommend people read it. Autonomous Republic is spelled out in the constitution. Since Crimea is a part of Ukraine, the referendum was illegal.
It was not illegal...
Again no - Its not the same as Kosovo. First and foremost, again, you are admitting they are a part of Ukraine by the vote for independence. Since it violates Ukraine law, the declarations is unlawful.
With that being said Texas cannot create alliances with foreign governments.
Texas cannot request foreign military assistance.
The Council also have broads powers to:
3) passing of a resolution upon holding of a republican (local) referendum
If everyone agreed then life would be no fun. I actually enjoy the counter arguments as I always learn something from the exchange.
So long as communication occurs, then there is a chance of a peaceful outcome. Both here on ATS and in the world as a whole.
CharlieSpeirs
This would be valid if the Crimean Constitution didn't have the clause for a Republic Referendum!!!
All in Crimea who were eligible could vote... Tatars boycotted, but some probably voted!!!
CharlieSpeirs
If it was just about disbanding from Ukraine probably not...
But it wasn't, it was choice between Russia & the 1992 Crimean Constitution.
CharlieSpeirs
Read Chapter 1 & you'll see the contradiction... It's huge!!!
Crimea has it's own separate Constitution & they can hold a Republic Referendum... It's not illegal at all, especially when the Coup is brought into it!!!
CharlieSpeirs
I haven't said it was an illegal Coup... I'm saying that Crimean Parliament would not recognise the new Government... & they are well within their right to feel this way & act upon it!!!
Hence the Declaration of Independence re: UN Charter!!!
The Crimean Parliament is the regional and unicameral parliament of Crimea; a territory currently under dispute by Russia and Ukraine. In Ukrainian context, the parliament is referred to as Supreme Council of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea (sometimes translated as Verkhovna Rada of Crimea or as Supreme Rada of Crimea) while in Russian context it is referred to as State Council of the Republic of Crimea (Ukrainian: Верховна Рада Автономної Республіки Крим; Russian: Верховный Совет Автономной Республики Крым; Crimean Tatar: Qırım Muhtar Cumhuriyetiniñ Yuqarı Radası, Къырым Мухтар Джумхуриетининъ Юкъары Радасы).[3] The Parliament is housed in the Parliament building in the center of Simferopol.
During the period of time in which Crimea was controlled by Ukraine, the Parliament was unable to appoint the Prime Minister of Crimea on its own, being able to appoint him only with the advice and consent of the President of Ukraine. This restriction did not sit well with the Parliament and its constituents, creating a long standing rift between them and the national government of Ukraine.
As the Crimean crisis unfolded, the building of the Parliament came under control of unidentified pro-Russian gunmen. Under this control, the Parliament bucked[awkward] Ukrainian authorities by removing the incumbent Ukrainian-consented Prime Minister of Crimea and unilaterally appointing Sergey Aksyonov in his stead. The Ukrainian Parliament responded to this act by disbanding the Crimean Parliament within Ukraine's legal system.[4] The disbandment was also caused by the belief that the Crimean Parliament collaborated with Russian troops in the region against Ukrainian authorities.[5] Days later, the Crimean Parliament reunified its territorial jurisdiction with the city of Sevastopol into a single united nation and unilaterally declared their independence from Ukraine following a referendum that reflected such desire. This newly formed nation then acceded to Russia which ultimately transferred the Crimean Parliament under a newly formed federal subject of Russia.
However, Ukraine and the majority of the international community do not recognize the formation of this newly formed federal subject and continue to consider the Crimean Parliament as an entity under Ukraine's jurisdiction, even after it disbanded it.
CharlieSpeirs
I'm not comparing the situation, very different, I'm saying the UN Charter that recognised Kosovo set precedent for future reference...
CharlieSpeirs
Circumstances for this part of the Charter do not have to be identical, as with International Law & interpretation it will be looked into!!!
CharlieSpeirs
& Crimea are still awaiting recognition, it hasn't been denied yet... which tells me it won't be denied either or the UN would have done so immediately IMO!!!
CharlieSpeirs
As for the DoI... as an Autonomous Republic that won't recognise the Coup leadership it's again perfectly legal push for Independence, despite Ukrainian Law, if that Law is overseen by a Government they have every right not to recognise, the next logical step is to reach out to the UN!!!
CharlieSpeirs
Forging an alliance & pleading for help are not the same thing...
What you're saying is they'd (realistically Crimea, hypothetically Texas) have to sit back and accept their fate, that's not part of International Law!!!
CharlieSpeirs
More so the only lie is the one the West continues to throw around of "Russian Invasion"!!!
Russia were based in Crimea, & once Crimea called for help to prevent catastrophe like we saw in Kiev with innocent people being Murdered by the Government, Russian troops had every right to do so... Without consent, as accepted by International Law that I already shared in my second post on this Thread!!!
CharlieSpeirs
You saved me time a pasted the contradiction... Right underneath the Bold part you highlighted...
Is it the people who cannot be "usurped" or the State???
CharlieSpeirs
Now allow me to share this!!!
The Council also have broads powers to:
3) passing of a resolution upon holding of a republican (local) referendum
1 & 2 were rather lengthy so I shared No.3!!!
CharlieSpeirs
Couldn't agree more pal, your clearly done your research & given me things to think about, that's always appreciated!!!
A worthy opponent in debate you are
Peace X!