The book of Enoch was the source of the biblical angelic names Michael and Gabriel.

MaigretJust to clarify, what is 'the gospel given to us'? Is it the traditional Christian 'good news' of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour?

It is all a lie and one overylay thoughtform OF MANY (nothing new as in 1000s of years in the trial form) that continues to perpetrate itself upon those humans that do not have the resourses or intelligence to distinguish fact from fiction.

vethumanbeing

MaigretJust to clarify, what is 'the gospel given to us'? Is it the traditional Christian 'good news' of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour?

It is all a lie and one overylay thoughtform OF MANY (nothing new as in 1000s of years in the trial form) that continues to perpetrate itself upon those humans that do not have the resourses or intelligence to distinguish fact from fiction.

edit on 27-3-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

You're not answering my question... and your response doesn't make any sense to me.

Maigret
vethumanbeing

MaigretJust to clarify, what is 'the gospel given to us'? Is it the traditional Christian 'good news' of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour?

VHBIt is all a lie and one overylay thoughtform OF MANY (nothing new as in 1000s of years in the trial form) that continues to perpetrate itself upon those humans that do not have the resourses or intelligence to distinguish fact from fiction.

MaigretYou're not answering my question... and your response doesn't make any sense to me.

Jesus never intended himself to be the Lord and Savior of Mankind. He never said so admitted to it and would be A 'Pauled' to see what has happened to his ministry (as in you think THIS was his message, nothing of the sort). The answer to your question is "NO" as Jesus did not write it, publish or distribute it in the form of "Christian Good News"; he wasnt a Christian himself so would be hypocritical in that intent (hindsight, foresight).

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Wow. I don't even really know when to start replying to your comment about Jesus having nothing to do with the Bible. I don't know, maybe I read it incorrectly. But Jesus (Yeshua) constantly referred back to writings in the Torah, and was not in any way gnostic. Many men tried to place him into conflict with the Law(Ten Commandments, Torah or Old Testament) which would have supported your theory. Instead, in His own words He said "I did not come to break the Law, but to fulfill it". And then He proceeded to do this by living a blameless life. Without the Old Testament, there would not nor could not be any belief that He was the messiah. It constantly references different prophecies He fulfilled that were written out in the Old Testament as they occur in scripture. In fact as a counter point; while exorcising demons from a man the pharisees(high priests in old jewish tradition) began to say that He casts out demons through Beelzebub. Acknowledging their thoughts, He replied "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation" This is obviously abbreviated for space. He said much more. Luke 11 if you're interested.

Also, the essenes are not relevant and to lump Yeshua and John the Baptist into their group is not really accurate and is playing fast and loose with facts. They are never mentioned in any old text of the Bible or New Testament. Most people get this idea from the Dead Sea Scrolls. Mind you, it has never been proven that "essenes" wrote these. Also, they tended to stay away from the Law as was written by Moses, thus the above should show you how this is contradictory to Yeshuas own teaching." For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

As far as gnostic not being for everyone, it appears it wasn't for Yeshua either.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


What Yeshua had to say about being the Messiah:
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it.

In case you would like to see this for yourself, Mathew 16.

Another interesting point, Peter is the disciple who denied Yeshua before the rooster crowed thrice, despite denying fervently that it could ever occur. From a psychological aspect, it must have been troubling to this man to see the man he thought was the son of G-d being led off to die. Must have brought a lot of doubt into his mind. Thus denying Him would have been the logical reaction, to save himself. No son of The Almighty could be killed in this way. But then something strange happened. This weak man who became fearful and doubtful to the point that he denied all he had witnessed and betrayed the man he call Adonai(my lord) went on to dedicate his entire life to sharing His word to the point that he personally requested to be crucified upside down as he felt unworthy to die in the same manner. This is historically documented. It is also psychologically significant. What did he see after denying his savior while He died? Maybe he saw Him rise up.

To deny someones intelligence in these matters is infantile, and misguided. I am not stupid. I study these things. I believe them to be true. I don't believe anyone has ever actually called me stupid. In fact I can remember making my dad soooo mad as he would always say "You're not stupid, I know. You just do stupid things" There was wisdom in his words.

To me, intelligence is possessed by all, some maybe more than others. But wisdom comes from G-d. G-d chooses to give this wisdom to humble souls, and pervertes the wisdom of the prideful. This is interesting if you analyze the lives of the people who make these kind of arguments. You will find that it is true most of the time. This is what I recommend to all people. Before you go tossing around the whole "stupid people can't tell fiction from reality" thing, you might actually want to study reality and compare it to the Bible. Then you can intelligently argue your point. Or else consider your own foolishness. It's the proverbial can't see it because it's right under your nose.

This confirms that the books that Enoch wrote probably are pre-flood books written by the prophet himself and was available in it’s origin form at least 1300 years after he wrote them.

reply to post by helius


That crap above would imply Noah had Enoch's book on the ark would it not?

BS

pleasethink
reply to post by vethumanbeing

[pleasethink Wow. I don't even really know when to start replying to your comment about Jesus having nothing to do with the Bible.

You could start by quoting my response directly (taking it apart word for word idea by ideaforms instead of this spagetti bowl RANT I have to deal with/justify response to).

pleasethink I don't know, maybe I read it incorrectly. But Jesus (Yeshua) constantly referred back to writings in the Torah, and was not in any way gnostic. Many men tried to place him into conflict with the Law(Ten Commandments, Torah or Old Testament) which would have supported your theory.

He did? (Jesus you mean) constantly refer to the Torah? I see no evidence of it other than in later writings (penned by 'others') DECADES LATER that werent THERE in the flesh scribing his ministry AS IT OCCURED to say that this is in fact a truism (regurgitating the Torah to his audience composed of many other than your basic Hebrew, Greeks, Summarians, Arab hodgepods etc. Im sure that was received with allocades).

pleasethink Instead, in His own words He said "I did not come to break the Law, but to fulfill it". And then He proceeded to do this by living a blameless life.

So we should all be blameless in our lives, I suppose that would entail living in fear of subjugation or just not living it to its fullest; (NO CARNAL RELATIONS), having no family of your own and avoiding WORK just expousing the word; in all probably a nomadic lifestyle fits the dream of the avoidance of having to pay taxes. You would think the demonstration would be one of hiding under the radar of the Romans, Saduccee, Pharasee. He probably did successfully for 3 years.

pleasethink Without the Old Testament, there would not nor could not be any belief that He was the messiah. It constantly references different prophecies He fulfilled that were written out in the Old Testament as they occur in scripture. In fact as a counter point; while exorcising demons from a man the pharisees(high priests in old jewish tradition) began to say that He casts out demons through Beelzebub. Acknowledging their thoughts, He replied "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation" This is obviously abbreviated for space. He said much more. Luke 11 if you're interested.

Without the Old Testament we might live in a better world and Luke never would have written his missive; whatever tenents existed of Jesus's ministry would not be labeled as NEW; better as NEWER and fundimentally different (not attached to the old).

pleasethink Also, the essenes are not relevant and to lump Yeshua and John the Baptist into their group is not really accurate and is playing fast and loose with facts. They are never mentioned in any old text of the Bible or New Testament. Most people get this idea from the Dead Sea Scrolls. Mind you, it has never been proven that "essenes" wrote these.

You are not a Gnostic so you would not understand where this knowledge comes from. The Essenes are highly relevant as that is what Jesus and John were. Im playing not with what you call relevance "FACTS" of tradition youve read from books. Im speaking of the truth. The Essenes left the Dead Sea Scolls for future generations to be found, if you are speaking of "PROOF" prove Jesus walked this earth leaving no written legacy "Dear Diary", no children: prodgeny, just hearsay. In a court of law; the lawyers being "The Devil VS Daniel Webster" Jesus as plaintiff really existed; who wins?

pleasethink Also, they tended to stay away from the Law as was written by Moses, thus the above should show you how this is contradictory to Yeshuas own teaching." For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Who tended to stay away from the Law of Moses? the Essenes. They were not Hebreic in any traditional sense whatsoever. This is why they were persecuted and lived in a secluded place outside of Jewish/Roman LAW. They were of the Gnostic tradition and were deeply spiritual regarding how and why the universe is structured and mankinds fit into it. They were of the Egyptian mystery school dynamic and exist today.

pleasethinkAs far as gnostic not being for everyone, it appears it wasn't for Yeshua either.

You should ask him; instead of blithly thinking/speaking for him as he disagrees with you (nice effort though).

pleasethink
reply to post by vethumanbeing

pleasethink What Yeshua had to say about being the Messiah:
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it.

Apologise here Im trying to figure out how to turn off the BOLD as its annoying. Jesus never said these things, wrote them down someone else is to blame.

pleasethinkIn case you would like to see this for yourself, Mathew 16.
Another interesting point, Peter is the disciple who denied Yeshua before the rooster crowed thrice, despite denying fervently that it could ever occur. From a psychological aspect, it must have been troubling to this man to see the man he thought was the son of G-d being led off to die. Must have brought a lot of doubt into his mind. Thus denying Him would have been the logical reaction, to save himself. No son of The Almighty could be killed in this way. But then something strange happened. This weak man who became fearful and doubtful to the point that he denied all he had witnessed and betrayed the man he call Adonai(my lord) went on to dedicate his entire life to sharing His word to the point that he personally requested to be crucified upside down as he felt unworthy to die in the same manner. This is historically documented. It is also psychologically significant. What did he see after denying his savior while He died? Maybe he saw Him rise up.

Well, I know that Peter never wrote anything down even though 'witness to' wait lemme check my 5 bibles of differing denominations..nope not there the "epistle of Peter" (still trying to find the bold exnay removal code). As far as wanting to be crucified, all Peter had to do is exclaim, "lets try it on a wheel form, that way I can be upside down, rightside up or sideways in case I want a different perspective relative to the ground/sky/gravity potencial blood pooling points" (this way the wheel could be used later as a cart wheel replacement or used for other executions); plus its mobile and the condemed to death can "roll it"; instead of carrying/dragging it; negating the humiliation of a public whipping spectical. Wood was probably scarce, and it must have been a pain for the Romans constantly having to dig the holes to set the cross standard into, then dig them up again to transport.

reply to post by lostinspace


St. Michael, patron saint of Police Officers

steaming
reply to post by lostinspace

 

St. Michael, patron saint of Police Officers.

St. Michael; was he the one that coined the words "to serve and protect"; tell that to those innocents recently raided in CA and AZ this month by BATFE (they didnt take any bibles).

Tattoo of Archangel Michael Discovered on 1,300 Year-Old Mummy
- See more at: cnsnews.com...


youtu.be...

reply to post by vethumanbeing


You seem like a learned man. I would quote all your points and make counter points, but I figure you are intelligent and should know what I am referring to. Plus it takes loads of time. The books of the Bible in which Yeshua is presented and His words collected are generally all thought to have been written before 100 ce. This would put them in a much closer proximity to His existence than you and I are. So therefore, I will believe that they know more about Him than I. Therefore when I study Yeshua, this is the main point of information. There are others, but these have the heart fulfilling confirmation. Meaning I can feel their truth. As one with many Bibles as you say, you should be aware of their composition. I believe maybe we are dealing with this:
Mathew 13:13 "This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand." We can debate about apologetics or whether whatever was written by who, but it won't go anywhere.

As far as you talking about the Essenes, I will quote one thing you said that I found interesting:
"Who tended to stay away from the Law of Moses? the Essenes. They were not Hebreic in any traditional sense whatsoever. This is why they were persecuted and lived in a secluded place outside of Jewish/Roman LAW."

The Dead Sea Scrolls, from which the "Essenes" of modern understanding came to prominence had a collection of interesting writings, a few you might recognize. Let me list them: Genesis, Deuteronomy, Job, Exodus, Isaiah, Leviticus, Numbers, Jeremiah, etc. etc. For a non Hebreic folk, they sure did hold on to Abrahamic writings. Remember, Yeshua was a Jew.

Anyways, I feel this has nothing to do with this thread, some of the things you say just had to be debated. I appreciate your beliefs. I only ask that you respect others who do not believe as you do. To resort to implying we aren't intelligent just because we believe The Bible is quite offensive. It also kind of doesn't make sense, as you did not invent Gnosticism, therefore you must have gotten it from ancient writings and believed it, right?

I saw the Noah movie. It was not what I expected. I will comment on it farther down the screen for those who don’t want to spoil their movie experience.
[SPOILER ALERT]
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I heard the name Samyaza mentioned in the movie. He was one of the rock giants who were known as the Watchers. He is the leader of the fallen angels in the book of Enoch but is not described to be in this form in the book. Noah and his family stumbled upon their land after being chased by a marauder band of humans. These rock beings hated humans because they were punished by God for giving them knowledge of special crafts. Originally they felt sorry for the humans after Adam and Eve’s transgression and tried to help. God was displeased and he cast them down to the earth and when they hit the surface of the earth their bodies of light were encased in rock. They walked around as distorted rock monsters with light emitting from cracks all over their bodies.

Noah confronted one of these Watchers and Noah convinced it to lead them to his grandfather Methuselah. His grandfather counseled him about the coming calamity. After a major miracle happened the Watchers decided to help build the ark and protect the family from raiding humans.

This was probably the most alien portion of the movie. Also, they never made mention of these Watchers mating with human women and producing the offspring known as the Nephilim. The book of Enoch clearly says that these angels hade relations with human women.

Near the end of the film I noticed one couple leaving the theater in disgust. I heard one guy behind me say quietly to his wife that he was bored near the end of the movie.

reply to post by lostinspace


The sons of God are also known as the men that obeyed God. The daughters of men were simply not godly women but daughters of the men that had turn away from God.

The misconception here is simple, God has asked is to be evenly yolk between man and woman.

Godly men having sex with unGodly women. Very simple.

Thanks for the heads up, I was interested in the movie but had a feeling it was all crap.

reply to post by Trollsmustdie


Thanks for the reminder of the other school of thought. I have read a number of sources explaining that line of reason. Without the book of Enoch that theory could hold true. That's probably why the book was suppressed by early religious leaders. Here's a few passages from Enoch revealing the cohabitation with human women:

"Then the Lord said to me: Enoch, scribe of righteousness, go tell the Watchers of heaven, who have deserted the lofty sky, and their holy everlasting station, who have been polluted with women. And done as the sons of men do, by taking to themselves wives, and who have been greatly corrupted on the earth; That on the earth they shall never obtain peace and remission of sin. For they shall not rejoice in their offspring; they shall behold the slaughter of their beloved; shall lament for the destruction of their sons; and shall petition for ever; but shall not obtain mercy and peace." - Enoch chap. XII [Sect. III] 5-7

This passage reminds me of Greek myths where gods mate with human women and father demigods such as Heracles, Perseus and the 10 sons of Poseidon, who founded Atlantis.

Perseus = father god (Zeus) + human woman (Danae)
Heracles = father god (Zeus) + human woman (Alcmene)
Atlas, Gadeirus, Ampheres, Evaemon, Mneseus, Autochthon, Elasippus, Mestor, Azaes, Diaprepes = father god (Poseidon) + human woman (Cleito)

Genesis 6:4 - "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

Heracles, or better known as Hercules, was a mighty man of fame along with Perseus who slain Medusa and the Kraken.

pleasethink
reply to post by veteranhumanbeing

pleasethink You seem like a learned man. I would quote all your points and make counter points, but I figure you are intelligent and should know what I am referring to. Plus it takes loads of time. The books of the Bible in which Yeshua is presented and His words collected are generally all thought to have been written before 100 ce. This would put them in a much closer proximity to His existence than you and I are.

Not really; 70 plus years after presumed death is how many generations. In our time generational period in technological years divided by ten (decades) 72 one lifetime. In theirs 3 (after the fact). 35-40 years of age being average lifespan. That would mean Luke was someones great grandchild.

pleasethink So therefore, I will believe that they know more about Him than I. Therefore when I study Yeshua, this is the main point of information. There are others, but these have the heart fulfilling confirmation. Meaning I can feel their truth. As one with many Bibles as you say, you should be aware of their composition. I believe maybe we are dealing with this:
Mathew 13:13 "This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand." We can debate about apologetics or whether whatever was written by who, but it won't go anywhere.

I am surely glad of you discovering your truth (truely). I love the parables best and that was a good one because it describes the basic dilema. No one understood anything that he was speaking about; and even parables didnt work: for example 13:15 For this peoples heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they shall see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Where did Matthew get his information? Did he channel 'woo woo' it like I do? Again; why dont you talk to Jesus yourself (not through prayer) I mean directly; its allowed.

pleasethink As far as you talking about the Essenes, I will quote one thing you said that I found interesting: "Who tended to stay away from the Law of Moses? the Essenes. They were not Hebreic in any traditional sense whatsoever. This is why they were persecuted and lived in a secluded place outside of Jewish/Roman LAW."

Qumran; as far away from Roman/Jewish rule that would allow.

pleasethink The Dead Sea Scrolls, from which the "Essenes" of modern understanding came to prominence had a collection of interesting writings, a few you might recognize. Let me list them: Genesis, Deuteronomy, Job, Exodus, Isaiah, Leviticus, Numbers, Jeremiah, etc. etc. For a non Hebreic folk, they sure did hold on to Abrahamic writings. Remember, Yeshua was a Jew.

He wasnt a Rabbi and not a traditional Jew in that he never married and at 33 had not become a familyman; that in itself would have caused scrutiny within the Hebreic community and very well should have resulted in his stoning. Im more interested in what the Nag Hammadi Library has to say (gnostic texts left out of the Bible). In particular: The Gospel of Thomas, The Book of Thomas the Contender, The Gospel of the Egyptians, The Gospel of Mary, The Origin of the World, Zostrianos, to name but a few.

pleasethink Anyways, I feel this has nothing to do with this thread, some of the things you say just had to be debated. I appreciate your beliefs. I only ask that you respect others who do not believe as you do. To resort to implying we aren't intelligent just because we believe The Bible is quite offensive. It also kind of doesn't make sense, as you did not invent Gnosticism, therefore you must have gotten it from ancient writings and believed it, right?

.
No one 'invented' Gnosicism, it just is; as you just are within that truth frequency that vibrates/resonates: as in you recognise yourself within its wisdom (yours as happens is the bible) mine are the dead sea scrolls. The Gnostic tractates are that which describe esoteric truths/knowledge that the editors of the Bible decided to LEAVE OUT (because they thought we couldnt understand them, as in feeble minded?). This was the genious of hiding them to be found later; when the world could make its own mind up.

pleasethink Can you see this? It appears foolish. And Peter was a greater man than you or I. I am indebted to his sacrifice, as without men like him I might not have known what I know, and would have surely perished. Best of luck.

Why was Peter a greater man than I? What happened to Peter? What was the sacrifice that saved your life?

D/P

reply to post by lostinspace


How tall would you say Adam was?

The book of Enoch is not Gods word other wise God would have not left it out of his Gospel.

IMO, the book of Enoch is fraud, planted by none other than Babylonian masters and deceivers.

Trollsmustdie
reply to post by lostinspace

 

How tall would you say Adam was?

The book of Enoch is not Gods word other wise God would have not left it out of his Gospel.

IMO, the book of Enoch is fraud, planted by none other than Babylonian masters and deceivers.

edit on 29-3-2014 by Trollsmustdie because: Word

I don't know how tall Adam was? Are you saying he was a giant?

As for Enoch being left out of the cannon on purpose, you have a point. There's just one catch. Jude quoted from the book of Enoch and God allowed the book of Jude to exist in the cannon.

Do think Jude should have been left out?