If you want to find out nearly every grand lodge has a webiste full of interesting facts.

The one for the UK is www.ugle.org.uk I think.

And yes of course there is the problem with the fact that a site about freemasonry will full of good points and all the pros, but then it goes for the conspiracy sites like here, they will always see the worst.

I would recomment the website above though, it's not recruitment campaign and is simply full of info.

I will always recommend making your own mind up. Don't let anything I have written, or anyone else for that matter, make your decision for you.

Saying that I don't think for a minute you would, but just in case if you know what I mean.

You will only get answers by asking questions, the number question is what answer to believe because there will always be two, pro and con.

But if you're going to argue that they are "good" just on the basis that they give charity,

I think you missed the point here or maybe i was not clear enough.

The Masonic Order does not just donate to the Shrine hospitals and Burn centers. The Shrine an appendant order of the masons, Builds them, staffs them and keeps them running. as i recall though there is on dept that you normally find in health care faclities that they are not real good at running.
that would be billing depts, as i recall they dont have any.

Not because they're Masons, but because they're all part of the same organization that I'm not a part of

that is at least at this time your choice not the choice of the Organization. You have chosen for what ever reason not to join.

So I have to join the Masons if I want to get promoted to Staff Sergeant

No. however given the statements you have made here i find it unlikely any
commander would promote you if they had a choice.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

Not because they're Masons, but because they're all part of the same organization that I'm not a part of

that is at least at this time your choice not the choice of the Organization. You have chosen for what ever reason not to join.

Of course it's my choice not to be a Mason! But why should that effect my position in the Army?

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

So I have to join the Masons if I want to get promoted to Staff Sergeant

No. however given the statements you have made here i find it unlikely any
commander would promote you if they had a choice.

Hmmm, I'm not entirely sure why you chose to attack me professionally, but to each his own. As far as my comment goes, I was not talking about the current time, I was talking about the hypothetical future, when, following this pattern, they hold 100% of the leadership positions. I think the answer to this *previously rhetorical question* would then be "yes". I can't blame them for wanting to promote fellow Masons over us non-Masons, but that doesn't make it right!

[edit on 26-11-2004 by an3rkist]

Originally posted by an3rkistOf course it's my choice not to be a Mason! But why should that effect my position in the Army?

Whether your a mason doesn't affect your ability to move up rank in the armed forces. You could argue the fact that many high class family members do not have to go through the lower levels of the hierachy and just go straight to officer posts. Your progression in the army is down to you. Any lack of promotion could be down to a number of things, it could be as simple as your superior simply doesn't like you (not directly at you personally)

There are many short cuts in life, not just for mason's, but the ability to get these is down to the individual offering them, not any group, organisation or fraternity they belong to. They do have minds of their own.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

So I have to join the Masons if I want to get promoted to Staff Sergeant

No. however given the statements you have made here i find it unlikely any
commander would promote you if they had a choice.

Originally posted by an3rkistHmmm, I'm not entirely sure why you chose to attack me professionally, but to each his own.

As an advisory note from some one who knows, what you write can be seriously taken the wrong way. Before thinking some one is getting on at you personally, professional, give it a couple of posts. It is sometimes the way you read it.

Originally posted by an3rkist
I was talking about the hypothetical future, when, following this pattern, they hold 100% of the leadership positions.

Wouldn't worry to much about this, it would never happen anyway, not with the Illuminati, Bildebergs, NWO and even Disney is involved somewhere all want this for themselves, so eventually they will just wipe each out secretly and we, joe publlic, will be left to run things properly.

Originally posted by Bondi
Whether your a mason doesn't affect your ability to move up rank in the armed forces. You could argue the fact that many high class family members do not have to go through the lower levels of the hierachy and just go straight to officer posts. Your progression in the army is down to you. Any lack of promotion could be down to a number of things, it could be as simple as your superior simply doesn't like you (not directly at you personally)

Now I KNOW you were right about the spiraling statement, because this just brings me back to the original topic. You say that it DOESN"T effect my ability to move up in rank in the Army, yet a few people have already admitted that Masons help each other out! And like I said, I can't blame them, but that doesn't make it right. It's discriminatory and it's wrong. And we all keep talking about this as if it's happening right now, which it may be. But as far as I know I have not been discriminated against because I'm not a Mason. Then again I haven't gotten to the point where I can really be promoted yet. The point is, I was talking about the hypothetical future. At the rate this thing is going, in the near future the leaders of the Army will all be Masons. They wouldn't have ANY reason to promote anyone besides Brother Masons, because there would be no consequences to their actions! It would only be in their interest to bring more Brother Masons into the Army, because they would "know" that they are good, honorable people.

Originally posted by Bondi
As an advisory note from some one who knows, what you write can be seriously taken the wrong way. Before thinking some one is getting on at you personally, professional, give it a couple of posts. It is sometimes the way you read it.

I agree, but don't you think the same thing could've been said to him for his comment? (I do apologize, stalkingwolf, if I took your comment out of context.)

Originally posted by an3rkist
You say that it DOESN"T effect my ability to move up in rank in the Army, yet a few people have already admitted that Masons help each other out! And like I said, I can't blame them, but that doesn't make it right.

I don't think any one actually agrees with it, more a case of try to show it's not a detrimental effect of freemasonry. Usually, as I do it often myself, would use an example like: -

If you had to choose between 2 people to play on your football team, one is your friend and the other is not, which one would you choose.?

A lot of people miss the big picture but saying it's a little different from larger decisions, which obviously it is, I am not stupid.

The point is, we will always help our friends if we can. But no one is condemming friendship. Do you know what I mean. I don't agree with it, but hey if my mate can help me get a job or promotion over some one else then thank you mate.

It's discriminatory and it's wrong.

Can't argue with that, but it will not be gone if Freemasonry was not around either.

But as far as I know I have not been discriminated against because I'm not a Mason.

A thought, how do you know if you have been discriminated against? I mean unless the person who did actually comes up and says you didn't get it cause the other bloke is a mason, you wont actually know 100% for sure it has happened.

I was talking about the hypothetical future. At the rate this thing is going, in the near future the leaders of the Army will all be Masons. They wouldn't have ANY reason to promote anyone besides Brother Masons,

unless the person was better suited, better qualified etc etc. mason's aren't stupid if they were going round employing on a basis of they were masons and not because they are qualified, or able to do the job, I don't think it would go un-noticed and you certainly wouldn't need to research it.

because there would be no consequences to their actions! It would only be in their interest to bring more Brother Masons into the Army, because they would "know" that they are good, honorable people.

For sectors such as the army, it is more important to get the right person than a friend, mason, etc etc, and if freemasonry was on the road for world domination and all that, I think it would be very peticular about who was in it's army. Would you want a number of 40+ men of differing backgrounds to defend you against men and women of all ages, top notch skills, who are pissed at you for not promoting them. Not saying that all mason's are 40+ and incapable of defending themselves (I'll tell ya you have got to be so careful what your write )

I honestly wouldn't worry too much. Once you are at a stage where promotion is a real possbility, and you know that you've been discriminated against for any reason, you will have all the ammunition you need.

not entirely sure why you chose to attack me professionally, but to each his own. A

not an attack. just my view of comments you have made from a supervisory
viewpoint. after a certain point promotion is more than "time in Grade" and
job quals. retention being one. you have made several comments that indicate to me you dont intend to stay in. in this age of accountants running the military
they are more likely to promote someone who is reuping to get the most for their investment. really nothing to do with being or not being, its doing or not doing.

Of course Masons help each other.

If I saw a person in need, who is a Mason, that person would become my priority.

The welfare of other Masons is my business.

The same if you saw someone who was not a mason in need you would still help I am sure

Don't want to load their canons for them

Originally posted by Bondi
The same if you saw someone who was not a mason in need you would still help I am sure

Don't want to load their canons for them

That goes without saying.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

not entirely sure why you chose to attack me professionally, but to each his own. A

not an attack. just my view of comments you have made from a supervisory
viewpoint. after a certain point promotion is more than "time in Grade" and
job quals. retention being one. you have made several comments that indicate to me you dont intend to stay in. in this age of accountants running the military
they are more likely to promote someone who is reuping to get the most for their investment. really nothing to do with being or not being, its doing or not doing.

Once again I apologize for ASSuming it was an attack. I think I was kind of hoping it was so I would have something to use to my advantage, because the fact is, this argument has spiraled around so many times and we haven't really come to any conclusions, in my opinion. But I am glad it was not an attack because I want this all to be friendly debate.

On the flipside, you were right as rain about me not being someone with retention. And my superiors are aware of this, because I already tried to get out utilizing one of the legitimate ways to end a contract early. However, they brushed me off, ignored my beliefs, and just transferred me to a new unit which I will be leaving for in just a few days. Atleast I'll be back in the United States, where I haven't been in over a year! As far as me staying in the Army, that's an obvious NEGATIVE! And you were right in observing that.

an3rkist said:
I agree they probably do, and once again I'll mention that I never once referred to him as my "friend", (correct me if I'm wrong). And about joining the Masons? You may notice I'm an anarchist. I don't like organizations that have rank, (yes, the Army was the WRONG answer for me. I became an anarchist AFTER I joined the Army, though), or that discriminate, which is pretty much any organization. I view them as tyrannical in a small way. I don't like being told what to think in even a small way. I also don't have a strong belief in a single deity, which I'm pretty sure, (could be wrong), that that is a requirement of joining the Masons.

Sorry I had assumed he was a friend becuse he seemed very happy to tell you what he was up to. I have no axe to grind, I was not recruiting, it was an attempt to give you the difference between the two attitudes.

The question on joining is " Do you believe in a supreme being" its not that you have to have a strong belief. Its not a test.

it really does not matter , join or not join. What matters is that you have friends you can trust and you feel comfortable with. I understnad your 'not happy in the Army ' feeling. About 20 years ago, I had a couple of Brothers that came to work for me. They had apparently , gone AWOL from the army. I got to know them very well. Great guys great workers. They eventually got caught, but they did enjoy there period of freedom. They just could not stand the life, great pity.

I agree with this part, but I assure you I won't be joining an organization who won't even tell me who they are with a certainty.

My name is Bill McElligott, I live in Essex, England. What else would you like to know.

I can understand this, but I'm talking about people who are Masons WHILE being in the military.

Well thats a problem , I dont know any in the Military, but I still do not know if these guys have done anything to you. We find out how good someone is, not by what others say about them, but by what they say, what they do. It is not clear to me if you have been upset in any way by these Masons in the Military. I had assumed that as they had invited your associate to join them , then they are approachable, their judgment might be in question but thats another point.

I am not a mason, but I will go along with that.

I have been interested in masonry for over thirty years, have been proposed four times, but have never joined. Most of the people I know are masons, including all my neighbors.

The army, and every other group of males that work together in large numbers will have formed into masonic groups. There is absolutely no escape from masonry these days no matter where you go.

Now some of these guys are fairly seriously into the higher ideals of masonry, and others are in it just for the booze and the company. Others use it like a weapon to further their own selfish interests. If you want a successful career in any sphere you will never achieve it unless you join the craft. No exceptions.

This goes for everything from becoming president, to being a successful criminal. You can never achieve anything without the help and co operation of others. Masonry is a friendly society with secrets. They know each other and help each other, and that is no secret.

What they don't want you to know, and will never admit, is that this is achieved by disadvantaging non masons. There is another aspect of it as well. People like myself that are spiritually aware know the dangers inherent in masonry and what truly lies behind it. That is why I have never joined.

Masons will furiously deny that it is a satanic cult. Just wait and see the responses to this post ! However if you research jabulon, baphomet, and lucifer the prince of light, you might discover a few things about the craft.

However I am trying to be as objective as I can with what I know about the craft. To many masons the craft becomes the whole centre of their lives, the social and business advantages are not to be denied. But at what I see as a terrible spiritual cost.

I do not wish to discuss masonic secrets here, although after thirty years I know most of them worth knowing. There is a good side to it, and a truly evil side as well. As has been said by others on this thread already, it depends on the character of the individual which side is predominant.

What you will find in the army is that masons will be favored by other masons. They will get better reports, find promotion easier, get better perks and privileges. Masons see this as being quite fair and reasonable, and it is expected.

As an apprentice mason you would receive much. As you progress through the degrees, much will be expected of you in return. And that is how it works. You are placed under obligation. The receiving and granting of favoritism at the expense of more worthy people. Masonry has been described as a network of corruption, and that is exactly how many masons use it. But not every mason.

So go ahead and flame me, but you know I speak the truth.

Originally posted by billmcelligott

My name is Bill McElligott, I live in Essex, England. What else would you like to know.

Well, I hate to tell you, but I've come to the conclusion that what I want to know I cannot find out from anything anybody says on this board. Bias abounds, everyone wants to defend what THEY think is right, and my only answer is to find things out for myself. Don't take that to mean that I think you all are lying or anything, but the problem with message boards like this is EVERYthing is speculation. You can say "it's a FACT" all you want, but until I verify things for myself, everything is speculation. I guess I'll have to take the advice of a couple of you and approach them myself. I'll continue posting on this board, though, because I'm having fun and it's opening my mind to new ideas and things. Speculation is the thing that puts me on the road towards finding an answer, so speculation isn't really a bad thing. I'm still learning a lot from these posts.

Originally posted by billmcelligott
It is not clear to me if you have been upset in any way by these Masons in the Military. I had assumed that as they had invited your associate to join them , then they are approachable, their judgment might be in question but thats another point.

I will say this once again: The Masons at this point have done nothing to me personally. The only things I have against them at this point are the fact that I know next to nothing about them, (which may or may not be the Masons fault), and that makes me a little pissed off because the majority of the people that I take orders from day in and day out are Masons. My life is in the hands of these people, and I signed a contract saying I would do whatever they tell me to do. I would like to think that this is a good thing. But the fact is, no matter how many times you say you're not secretive, it doesn't necessarily make it true. Perhaps the organization was never meant to be secretive, but after hundreds of years of it being accused of being secretive it just became secretive by default, or maybe I'm wrong and it's not secretive, the truth is just being eclipsed by all the disinformation and accusations of the non-Masons. But the fact is, an extremely disproportionate amount of my superiors are Masons, and that raised a red flag in my mind.

If you were in the Army, as a Mason, and 90% of your superiors were ANTI-masons, you would most likely feel the same way I do, correct?

[edit on 26-11-2004 by an3rkist]

Originally posted by an3rkist
If you were in the Army, as a Mason, and 90% of your superiors were ANTI-masons, you would most likely feel the same way I do, correct?

Unless you are anti-Mason the above statement is not an equivalent comparison. Perhaps you intended to say, "non-Masons"? I would guess that a typical Mason would have no problem having superiors that were non-Masons, whereas he would not be real thrilled having anti-Masons as his superiors. Did you intend anti or non Mason?
.

Originally posted by df1
Unless you are anti-Mason the above statement is not an equivalent comparison. Perhaps you intended to say, "non-Masons"? I would guess that a typical Mason would have no problem having superiors that were non-Masons, whereas he would not be real thrilled having anti-Masons as his superiors. Did you intend anti or non Mason?

Well, I used the term "anti-Mason", because if I said "a bunch of non-Masons", the fact is, most non-Masons are unaware of their colleagues memberships in Freemasonry, so that example would be completely ineffective at best. I felt I could use the term anti-Masons because of the admitted fraternization of other Masons by Masons. In other words, a Mason gives priority to Brother Masons for obvious reasons. Although we can't very well call Masons anti-non-Masons, it's closer to that than it is to them being non-anti-non-Masons. WOW THIS IS GETTING CONFUSING! I tried to explain it as best I could. I guess I could've worded it this way: "If you were in the Army, and you were coming up for promotion and more than ninety percent of your leaders were in a group where they favored they're fellow group members, and you were NOT part of that group, would you not feel the same way I do?"

[edit on 26-11-2004 by an3rkist]

Originally posted by an3rkist
I tried to explain it as best I could. I guess I could've worded it this way: "If you were in the Army, and you were coming up for promotion and more than ninety percent of your leaders were in a group where they favored they're fellow group members, and you were NOT part of that group, would you not feel the same way I do?"

Maybe your feelings of isolation have nothing to do with being surround by Masons. It seems that being an anarchist would naturally create a state of isolation for the anarchist due his preference of chaos over order. I was always under the impression that most anarchist types were real tough, independent, lone wolf kind of guys and that they liked it that way, but you appear concerned that the forces of order (Masons) are getting over on you. This strikes me as an unusual concern, coming from an anarchist.

Have you ever considered rethinking your support of anarchy to resolve your dilemma?

As Einstein said, "God does not play dice with the universe". Old Albert makes a pretty good case favoring order over chaos.
.

Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by an3rkist
I tried to explain it as best I could. I guess I could've worded it this way: "If you were in the Army, and you were coming up for promotion and more than ninety percent of your leaders were in a group where they favored they're fellow group members, and you were NOT part of that group, would you not feel the same way I do?"

Maybe your feelings of isolation have nothing to do with being surround by Masons. It seems that being an anarchist would naturally create a state of isolation for the anarchist due his preference of chaos over order. I was always under the impression that most anarchist types were real tough, independent, lone wolf kind of guys and that they liked it that way, but you appear concerned that the forces of order (Masons) are getting over on you. This strikes me as an unusual concern, coming from an anarchist.

Have you ever considered rethinking your support of anarchy to resolve your dilemma?

As Einstein said, "God does not play dice with the universe". Old Albert makes a pretty good case favoring order over chaos.
.

Hm, I should've seen that one coming, eh? I label myself an anarchist because I dislike and abhor anyone or anything that tries to tell me what to do. That's why I joined the Army. (I became an anarchist AFTER I joined the Army, I'm currently waiting impatiently for my contract to end.) You'll notice my signature about anarchy not being chaos, but "order without control". I dislike the Army as much as I dislike any other group that is discriminatory, which is EVERY group that I can think of, to include the Masons, the Mormons, Boy Scouts, AAA Auto club, etc.

But all I can hope to do is to limit the amount they contribute to the discriminations, wars, etc. in this world. Not that I'm saying the Masons contribute to wars and stuff, although I really couldn't say for sure. I don't think I explained that very well, but there ya go.

[edit on 27-11-2004 by an3rkist]

Why don't you simply JOIN the Masons?


Then you'll:

1.) have all your questions answered

2.) know what they (we) know

3.) avoid havig to complain about it

Might make life alot easier, and probably more fun, too.