Ron Paul on Crimea: None of America’s business

Members should be aware that the version of Ron Paul's comments on the state-run propaganda vehicle, Russia Today, are different and exaggerated from his actual op-ed that appeared in USA Today: Ron Paul: Crimea secedes. So what?

When posting news to ATS, please attempt to weight the bias of sources known to fabricate news (such as Russia Today) against the actual originating source of the news.

Elton
So the USA should not honor its treaties when they are inconvenient? Maybe the USA should not make agreements they are not willing to honor...

From your own provided link:

According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations "It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine."[8] In the U.S. neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to give a military commitment to Ukraine, nor did they believe the U.S. Senate would ratify an international treaty, so the memorandum was agreed as a political agreement.

So, no, the treaty does not bind the US into acting and apparently was specifically worded to avoid military commitment to Ukraine. In fact, here's the basics of that treat from the link that you provided:

1. Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
   
2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
   
3. Refrain from using economic pressures on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
   
4. Seek UNSC action if nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine.
   
5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
   
6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.
   

I don't see anything about what we have to do in regards to Ukraine in terms of assistance beyond "consulting with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments". No promise of military action or funding. In fact, "using economic pressures in order to influence politics" could actually be construed as us giving them $1b post their little revolution theoretically.

en.wikipedia.org...

Must be an IQ restriction on applying for Presidential jobs in the US as well as police jobs.

Elton
So the USA should not honor its treaties when they are inconvenient? Maybe the USA should not make agreements they are not willing to honor...

The people of Crimea has voted to join Russia. Game over. So whatever happens there is no longer Americas business.

buster2010

Elton
So the USA should not honor its treaties when they are inconvenient? Maybe the USA should not make agreements they are not willing to honor...

The people of Crimea has voted to join Russia. Game over. So whatever happens there is no longer Americas business.

It never was their business to begin with. Until the american people do something about their leaders, I shall continue to blame the american people for this.

sparklez

buster2010

Elton
So the USA should not honor its treaties when they are inconvenient? Maybe the USA should not make agreements they are not willing to honor...

The people of Crimea has voted to join Russia. Game over. So whatever happens there is no longer Americas business.

It never was their business to begin with. Until the american people do something about their leaders, I shall continue to blame the american people for this.

Before blaming the people learn how the election process works. The people do not vote in the president that is an illusion and Americans have become too fat and lazy to do anything about their leaders.

buster2010

sparklez

buster2010

Elton
So the USA should not honor its treaties when they are inconvenient? Maybe the USA should not make agreements they are not willing to honor...

The people of Crimea has voted to join Russia. Game over. So whatever happens there is no longer Americas business.

It never was their business to begin with. Until the american people do something about their leaders, I shall continue to blame the american people for this.

Before blaming the people learn how the election process works. The people do not vote in the president that is an illusion and Americans have become too fat and lazy to do anything about their leaders.

So much for the 2nd ammendment.

sparklez

buster2010

sparklez

buster2010

Elton
So the USA should not honor its treaties when they are inconvenient? Maybe the USA should not make agreements they are not willing to honor...

The people of Crimea has voted to join Russia. Game over. So whatever happens there is no longer Americas business.

It never was their business to begin with. Until the american people do something about their leaders, I shall continue to blame the american people for this.

Before blaming the people learn how the election process works. The people do not vote in the president that is an illusion and Americans have become too fat and lazy to do anything about their leaders.

So much for the 2nd ammendment.

The second is for tyranny inside the states not outside the states. How do you think the war machine and oil companies are to make a profit without the government interfering with other governments?

buster2010

sparklez

buster2010

sparklez

buster2010

Elton
So the USA should not honor its treaties when they are inconvenient? Maybe the USA should not make agreements they are not willing to honor...

The people of Crimea has voted to join Russia. Game over. So whatever happens there is no longer Americas business.

It never was their business to begin with. Until the american people do something about their leaders, I shall continue to blame the american people for this.

Before blaming the people learn how the election process works. The people do not vote in the president that is an illusion and Americans have become too fat and lazy to do anything about their leaders.

So much for the 2nd ammendment.

The second is for tyranny inside the states not outside the states. How do you think the war machine and oil companies are to make a profit without the government interfering with other governments?

Go hold a peacful demonstration and im sure that will change.

reply to post by Elton

Elton
So the USA should not honor its treaties when they are inconvenient? Maybe the USA should not make agreements they are not willing to honor...

Is this a statement or a question?

The US government has a well established history of violating countless treaties going back to the Indian nations (its some crazy number getting into the hundreds).

Under Bush, they argued that they werent even subject to the Geneva Conventions (you know, the international laws that were developed as a result of Hitler's atrocities)...

Forget about treaties. Our government acts like a global mafia via political assassinations, overthrowing democracies, installing dictators and starting lie based wars but apparently, its only a violation of international law when someone else does it...

This situation is boiling over with hypocrisy.

Regardless, it would seem that the US, NATO and the EU have already violated this so called treaty:

According to the memorandum, Russia, the U.S., and the UK confirmed... that they would:

1. Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
   
2. Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.

reply to post by HardCorps


he may be right in regards to not interfering and ignoring what happens to foreign nations because it's not our business, but when you make agreements then things become your business and it's just as wrong to run from it just because it doesn't benefit you, that's selfish and proves that you can never be trusted, it's what cowards do, that's why it's too late at this point to say it's not our business.

we are already close to being doomed as a nation and running will only make it worse for us, it will only make other nations hate us more until one day, when we need help the most and beg for it we will, guess what? our friends will kick us in the face for abandoning them and pray for our destruction. cowards can never be relied upon or trusted and will always be abandoned by others in the end after all.

SkepticOverlord
Members should be aware that the version of Ron Paul's comments on the state-run propaganda vehicle, Russia Today, are different and exaggerated from his actual op-ed that appeared in USA Today: Ron Paul: Crimea secedes. So what?

When posting news to ATS, please attempt to weight the bias of sources known to fabricate news (such as Russia Today) against the actual originating source of the news.

edit on 18-3-2014 by SkepticOverlord because: (no reason given)

Or how about instead of reading propaganda from either the US or Russia, maybe we listen to his own words spoken by him?

reply to post by WhiteAlice


You are aware that under the auspices of this agreement, Ukraine largely disarmed and is thus more or less unable to take much action for itself?

If Russia decides to just go ahead and grab half to Ukraine, we can ignore the agreement, but Ukraine has little teeth left to prevent Russia from doing anything on its own. In other words, we will have set them up for this.

One, about the vote. Stalin once said that the only thing that counts in an election is who counts the vote. The "Self Defense Forces" kept foreign observers out of Chimera.
Two, Ukrainians hate Russia. They were a proud and independent people until the Czar decided their land was needed to feed the nobles. A situation which continued after Lenin created the USSR. The Russians in Chimera were mainly forced relocation under the Czar, Lenin, and Stalin to secure the territory for Moscow.
Three, no point on the Earth is further then a thirty minute, ballistic missile track. Ron Paul and others are beginning to sound like PM Chamberlain, and "Peace In Our Time."

Ron Paul is right. Why get involved now when all it will take is some santions, when we can do nothing and wait a few years until Europe is in a full scale nuclear war. I am sure that will have no bad results for us. What could go wrong.

reply to post by ketsuko


They disarmed their nuclear stockpile--not themselves totally. There's a difference between having a military and having nukes. Most countries in the world don't have nukes. In fact, it's easier to link to which states do than to list who doesn't. 9 countries out of over 195 have nukes. Source

Ukraine is not without a military and has engaged in peacekeeping and NATO operations since the 90's. Much of its military was inherited from the USSR and it has maintained its own military industrial complex ever since the dissolution of the USSR. What they gave up in the Budapest Treaty was their nuclear armaments--not their military. Much respect to Ukraine for doing that, btw.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by WhiteAlice



Yup and they gave them up on knowledge and promise that the UK and US would protect them if Russia tried doing exactly what they are doing. So we have left Ukraine hanging

reply to post by WhiteAlice


They gave up the nukes, yes, but they also gave up part of their military, too.

We hung them out to dry, but Obama did tell Medvedev he'd be more flexible after his re-election. Maybe this is what he meant. Putin gets the old USSR back and everybody happy ... except the Ukrainians who likely still remember the Great Famine, among other things.

stargatetravels
reply to post by WhiteAlice

 

Yup and they gave them up on knowledge and promise that the UK and US would protect them if Russia tried doing exactly what they are doing. So we have left Ukraine hanging

Why should the US and UK do anything when the Ukraine is the one starting the trouble? Crimea was supposed to be it's own autonomous state but it looks like the Ukraine thought it belonged to them which it doesn't seeing how they voted to become an independent nation. So the Ukraine just needs to back off and mind their own business and let Crimea decide it's own fate and they have chosen to rejoin Russia.

ketsuko
reply to post by WhiteAlice

 

You are aware that under the auspices of this agreement, Ukraine largely disarmed and is thus more or less unable to take much action for itself?

If Russia decides to just go ahead and grab half to Ukraine, we can ignore the agreement, but Ukraine has little teeth left to prevent Russia from doing anything on its own. In other words, we will have set them up for this.

Yep. The lesson there is, you don't give up your weapons for the promise of security. The American people should take note of this. If the Ukraine had kept their nukes, this would be a whole different ball game. Countries with nuclear arms don't get invaded. Iran should take note of that.