1 Million Christians sign EU religion plea

Religion should be kept out of government affairs for it causes massive problems. Ones religion is not everyone elses religion.. like it or not.

Personally I find religion to be deplorable, for me I have to look at someone who puts religious belief as more important as the people as a whole as a primitive thinker.

You can thump your bible at home, in your church... in places where religion is practiced. But once you bring it into government you've stirred up a ton of trouble. If all people were of one religion there would be no problem, but we do not live in such a fair world.

Edsinger seems to believe it is "sad" when christian becomes a minority in Europe, what makes your religion better than another religion? Don't you care more about progressive politics instead of this mythical belief system?

[edit on 26-11-2004 by RedOctober90]

Let me ask this simple question of the Americans here.

When the Supreme Court was built, the Ten Commandments were CARVED in stone. Should they be removed? Does that offend anyone? That a nation in which gives you the freedom to worship who you wish or none at all thought it necessary to add these Judeo Christian values in stone?

The government doesn't grant freedom ed, it is only designed to protect it. All the ten commandments aren't even relevant to the Supreme Court. They are there merely as a symbolic gesture. I'm not offended of displaying the 10 commandments, but I would be offended if our government decides to start interpreting God's will.

Like what the neo-cons are doing with the Constitution Restoration Act of 2004.

Originally posted by Jamuhn but I would be offended if our government decides to start interpreting God's will.

Like what the neo-cons are doing with the Constitution Restoration Act of 2004.

So how would your define interpreting Gods will? Like say, thou shalt not kill? Thou shalt not commit adultery?

Which is it? The placement of the 10 commandments was symbolic alright. It symbolized on what principles the nation was founded. It would have even been more so if not for Jefferson and Franklin and the like.

Well, if memory serves correct, it is illegal to kill someone in most countries. And, yes, I think most countries do not display the 10 commandments either. Interesting, so you can actually have laws without displaying the 10 commandments!

And ed, our law system is based upon Sumerian influences, code of hammurabi, judeo-christian, roman civil law, english common law. I could point you to a post by Masonic Light if you are unsure of yourself.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 26-11-2004 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by JamuhnAnd ed, our law system is based upon Sumerian influences, code of hammurabi, judeo-christian, roman civil law, english common law. I could point you to a post by Masonic Light if you are unsure of yourself.

Cant argue with that! Hammurabi I knew, but wouldn't that be considered Sumerian also? Rome, yup I can see that one also.

I hate to reapeat myself, but I have to do it again.

European Constitution is nothing like american constitution.
EU Constitution is a symbolical legal document. Laws already exist in Europe and have been existent for hundreds of years. They do not need constitution do determine them.
European Union is a union of, now already, 25 countries, SOVEREIGN countries, with already existent laws, guidelines, that have a foundation in over 3,000 years of history of civilisation on this continent and influence of over 6,000 years of written history of mankind.
The Constitution simply sumarises basic principles of HUMANITY, the general idea behind unity of people, peace, justice, equality, modern tolerant world.
It was written in 21st century and majority of europeans are quite happy with it. It does not ban church or God or pope or Christmas, it does not negate history, it does not make Europe islamic (another absurd idiotic claim with zero actual evidence made by some people who need a serious reality check).

The word "God" in Constitution in simply not neccesary. God is in Church, homes, history, holidays, in your heart, and that is where it should be.

Europe has decided. Deal with it.



[edit on 27-11-2004 by paperclip]

Originally posted by Edsinger
And one reaps what they sow......

I am sad to hear this but alas I know it to be true and the consequences thereof will be forthcoming. Either Europe will be Muslim or atheist but Christ has been booted from the continent except for some of the eastern European nations.

- Uh oh.
Still sticking with your starting line, eh?
You just can't see it can you?
You really haven't grasped this at all, have you Ed?

Sorry Ed but nonsense; this is pure laughable nonsense.

There are a stack of agnostics here in Europe, a fair amount - but a definite minority of - atheists and a small minority of Muslims......and a hell of a lot of people who would describe themselves as basically 'Christian' (1001 varieties of).

So your 'a future of only 2 options' talk is plainly rubbish.

They had persecution for years and now they see and are allowed to hold onto their faith.

- The eastern European Orthodox Churches are recovering from repression (like the Russian Orthodax), yes....and what? What do you imagine "they see"?

What has eastern Europe's experience with persecution of religion got to do with an EU where an individuals' rights to religious freedom are guaranteed?

Go to Greece and see the Greek Orthodox in action; or Rome and see the pomp of the Roman Catholics or England and see the Anglican Church doing it's 'high Church' thing.

This still still goes on and has not been stopped or pushed out of anything.....it's just not being placed in a priviledged position in the pan-European 'constitution'.

The fact that the people are interested less and less and Church attendance is falling is nothing to do with the EU or any (brand new, not yet even ratified across all of the EU yet) constitution.

Originally posted by paperclip
I hate to reapeat myself, but I have to do it again.

European Constitution is nothing like american constitution.

- Tell it like it is mate!

I keep trying to tell some Americans this about this stuff paperclip but they don't seem to be able to get any grasp on the subject at all unless they can make it 'like the USA' in some form.....which instantly means they have no clue and aren't going to really 'get it' anyway!

EU Constitution is a symbolical legal document. Laws already exist in Europe and have been existent for hundreds of years. They do not need constitution do determine them.

- 100%.

The European Union is a union of, now already, 25 countries, SOVEREIGN countries, with already existent laws, guidelines, that have a foundation in over 3,000 years of history of civilisation on this continent and influence of over 6,000 years of written history of mankind.
The Constitution simply sumarises basic principles of HUMANITY, the general idea behind unity of people, peace, justice, equality, modern tolerant world.

- Yup and not a word about an EU-wide 'banning' or excluding of religion amongst any of them.

It was written in 21st century and majority of europeans are quite happy with it. It does not ban church or God or pope or Christmas, it does not negate history, it does not make Europe islamic (another absurd idiotic claim with zero actual evidence made by some people who need a serious reality check).

- Well I reckon that in the strange weirdo world of the fundamentalist evangelicals in the USA today (the only 'version' of 'Christianity' that seems to count there these days ) it appears the opposition or other side being pumped up is Islam - these guys just have to have a scary 'oppostition'....it used to be 'evil' and 'God-less' Russian commies but they stopped playing a while back.

So, if Europe isn't especially or suitably and sufficiently religious (despite being home to the RC's, C of E, all the Ortodox Churches and Protestant Churches etc etc) then it seems they can't help thinking we're becoming 'God-less' and, with the world being what it is these days, we must all all be about to fall into the clutches of the 'mad Mullahs'.....

.....oh, and be intrinsically 'un-American' - despite our not being American in the first place!

The new 'crime'; foreigners being 'un-American'.
Jayzuss wept.
The lunatics are talking over the asylum!

The word "God" in Constitution in simply not neccesary. God is in Church, homes, history, holidays, in your heart, and that is where it should be.

Europe has decided. Deal with it.

- Do you think they'll get it now?

Look I do not advocate the forcing of religion on anyone. If it is as you say that the majority of people in Europe would consider themselves Christian, then what is the percentage that actually go to Church? It is not even 20%.

This would lead one to believe that complacent Christians abound there then and whether that is enough is up to the big guy.

One can not be a political Correct Christian, it is impossible to do so. I know there are Christians there, but they are far in the minority.

IMHO, one can not be a Christian if they only want the name, it is a faith and if they look to the government and the world for answers then they are of this world.

Read the 7 letters in Revelation and you will better understand what is meant when Christ says " I never knew you!"

Originally posted by edsinger
Look I do not advocate the forcing of religion on anyone.

- So what is your problem with 'Christianity' not being given a priviledged position in this 'constitution?
What is the big deal Ed?

How come you have said nothing, even though it has been mentioned here, of the guaranteeing, extension and formalising of human rights and liberties in this 'constitution' (which is a very major part of this document) but have spent time and effort talking at length about Muslims and all sorts?!

If it is as you say that the majority of people in Europe would consider themselves Christian, then what is the percentage that actually go to Church? It is not even 20%.

- What's this about?
Are you saying regular attendance at a church of some sort defines whether someone is genuinely 'Christian', now?
If that works for you or your church, great knock yourselves out, but it goes no further than that.

This would lead one to believe that complacent Christians abound there then and whether that is enough is up to the big guy.

- Sorry Ed but I don't think you get to judge at all.
If He exists He will decide those matters Himself.

One can not be a political Correct Christian, it is impossible to do so. I know there are Christians there, but they are far in the minority.

- You will find that a majority define themselves as basically 'Christian'. They might not attend churches regularly but they tend to show up for the major events still - christenings, weddings, funerals etc.
Whether that's good enough for you or not is your affair.

What has this to do with "political correctness"? Where is the PC-ness in any of this?

IMHO, one can not be a Christian if they only want the name, it is a faith and if they look to the government and the world for answers then they are of this world.

- Er, yeah, whatever you say Ed.

The thing is we were talking about the new EU constitution and you were dreaming up some strange implications over it all....

....I see the Muslims have dropped out of this for now.

Read the 7 letters in Revelation and you will better understand what is meant when Christ says " I never knew you!"

- That's great Ed but when I'm investigating and educating myself about this new EU constitution I'm - like the vast bulk of my fellow EU members - very happy that no-ones' religion (not even a particular version of 'Christianity') is being put in a priviledged position - in law - by it.

It couldn't be done to suit all, not even all 'Christians', so it's better if it suits none, specifically, there is no need for it.

We may not be able to do anything much about our private prejudices but we can expect (and in Europe we absolutely do expect, more and more) that in our official public dealings with each other and as much as possible in our commercial relations we will do it without prejudice.

Thank God for that!