A Conversation About Abortion you need to read!

Originally posted by JamuhnOnce again, what side do you think I am on? The only reason I ever responded to this thread is because of all the judgement going on. Ed calling people murderers and such...

If one commits murder, what would you call them? Saints?


As I have stated that if the big 3 cases were not on the table and if abortion were banned for a after 'contraception', it might be another case.

IMHO, killing a child for 'other' then than 3, it is murder, but that is my opinion and I am entitled to it.

....How do you determine the circumstances that make it legal for one woman and not legal for another � this can become very complex, dirty AND expensive if the legitimacy of each abortion becomes a courtcase. Not all cases are clear cut � and on the flipside, it could work against men being falsely accused of rape.

I don't think anyone on either side of this debate is condoning killing, but I do object to taking away the choices of the woman. Both science and religious belief state that human life begins at conception. If abortion were to be made illegal on these grounds, then so too must most contraception be made illegal. The pill and IUD for example do not prevent conception, they only make the uterus inhospitable to the fertilized egg so that it cannot attach to the womb. In other words, while a woman is on these contraceptives a human life may be conceived and silently aborted each month. Should these contraceptives be illegal also? Is it murderous to be on these contraceptives? To what stage of feotal development would it be considered morally not ok to abort?

Then, there�s the adoption issue (I hear you Ed...) � seems unbalanced when there are many people wanting to adopt, and not enough babies to go around (then again, it can be argued here that there ARE enough babies � although they may not be �native�, and maybe that�s a good thing and having to wait is a test of your integrity).

Still, delegalising abortion would only sprout more problems of it own. And a woman should have the option of making informed decisions - not have her right to self-determination taken away from her.

www.abortionfacts.com...
� this website does not advocate making abortion illegal, but promotes adoption as the happier option.

... Really this and most issues are not black and white. We do not live in a black and white world, well ...if you do then you are missing out on a whole spectrum of shades and colours in between.



[edit on 30-11-2004 by c_au]

Originally posted by edsinger
If one commits murder, what would you call them? Saints?

So dramatic ed. You call it murder, I think it's too early to pass judgement.

But the only way we are going to get anywhere with this conversation is the lack of flaming. And none of this "side" business that Krazy J is all fanatic about.

I presented some questions in my last post, care to take a look?

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Once again, what side do you think I am on? The only reason I ever responded to this thread is because of all the judgement going on. Ed calling people murderers and such...

The Pro-Choice side, but I could be wrong. It's not an accusation. Yes, I respond to the judgement going on as well. But mostly I concentrate on the demonization of Christians (which I am not really), and the idea that Pro-life = Christian.

And...again...I'm not on any side Krazy

, that's my entire point. The question of whether abortion should be legal is purely philosophical, and I doubt there will ever be a solid answer to this question.

True, most do not really address the root, which is not judgemental at all, rather most choose to reside in the Pro-choice/Pro-life area, only looking at the practice itself.

How do you define life?

Well, I believe life begins at conception, if that's what you are getting at. But as for the definition of "life", that's a very shady area, and not a question easily answered. That is very well a whole other debate.

Does a fetus know it is alive, does ignorance count?

Hard to know. If science was more advanced we might know, but right now I'd have to say yes and no. It responds to stimuli, but it most likely is not cognative.

Is the potential or actuality for life a definition? I'll spare the other questions to prevent the obvious answers.

Sure, the single event that starts the domino effect to birth, is conception. Left unabated, a baby would (barring miscarriage) result in a baby. Is there any other conclusion to draw? I don't think so. It is not the potential for life, it is already in the process of creating life.

No, I was writing in reference to your poor judge of my intentions.

Well, perhaps you weren't clear, but that's neither here nor there.

Obviously, but hinting at abortioners being murderers is not the way to make a point IMO.

I agree. I do think abortion is murder, but to be reasonable you'd have to look at the intent. I know that most who have an abortion do not see it as murder, so calling them murderers would certainly be a little extreme. There is a big difference between abortion and murder of a person, so it really needs to be looked at and treated differently.

I don't support the condemnation of women who get abortions.

Originally posted by Amethyst
Falwell's a hypocrite and I don't associate myself with him or any of his ilk.

Still, there is a such thing as absolute truth. Either something is wrong or it isn't. No gray area.

Abortion is murder and therefore wrong.

Speak for yourself. I'm sure there are others like myself who don't believe in an absolute truth. Especially not if we live in a space-time continuum in which case absolutes don't exist.

In the face of uncertainty, you'd have to prove the validity of a discrete space, discrete probabilistic topology of our universe to prove the existence of an absolute truth.

Try and add that to your objectivism.

EDIT: @ c_au: I completely agree. Situations can become very complex, forming the gray areas that some claim don't exist.

[edit on 30-11-2004 by Nox]

[edit on 30-11-2004 by Nox]

Originally posted by Nox

Originally posted by Amethyst
Falwell's a hypocrite and I don't associate myself with him or any of his ilk.

Still, there is a such thing as absolute truth. Either something is wrong or it isn't. No gray area.

Abortion is murder and therefore wrong.

Speak for yourself. I'm sure there are others like myself who don't believe in an absolute truth. Especially not if we live in a space-time continuum in which case absolutes don't exist.

LOL I think you've been watching too much sci-fi.

I'm not christian,
but I'm spiritual, really really spiritual, I'm into reincarnation and KARMA
The foetus is just a foetus, the soul comes into the human body a month before birth..so the soul will just find another baby somewhere else if the foetus dies...that's it! The body and family of the soul will be another...the soul is THE important thing in life, the body is a SHELL, that is why I think that if the woman have abortion, that baby was not meant to be...and she has something to learn out of it
I'm 100% pro-choice because woman can do what they want with their body and if their contraception failed, they don't want children, they can get abortion, but don't abuse it!

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Originally posted by Amethyst
LOL I think you've been watching too much sci-fi.

I'm glad you found the humor in that. I was beginning to wonder how many people would take that too seriously.
Science and math really don't belong in discussions revolving around faith.

Given what I've said, I have faith that no absolute truths exist. Everything is taken in context.

Originally posted by Amelia
I'm not christian,
but I'm spiritual, really really spiritual, I'm into reincarnation and KARMA
The foetus is just a foetus, the soul comes into the human body a month before birth..so the soul will just find another baby somewhere else if the foetus dies...that's it! The body and family of the soul will be another...the soul is THE important thing in life, the body is a SHELL, that is why I think that if the woman have abortion, that baby was not meant to be...and she has something to learn out of it

I'm 100% pro-choice because woman can do what they want with their body and if their contraception failed, they don't want children, they can get abortion, but don't abuse it!

OK you are entitled to your beliefs and all and I can respect that. I can see why you think abortion is OK now.....I don't agree with it , but I can see it.

You think these 'souls' are just floating around looking for a baby huh? One month before birth huh?

OK in an incubator, can the 'soul' still find this child?

I believe that the soul is granted at conception, science doesnt support it you say? science will never be able to prove the soul exists let alone when it comes or goes.

Karma? Have you seen the Karma in India? India is a beautiful place but the caste system is pure evil. By the family you are born in , that will determine whether you are a 'dog' in society? Well that is hogwash, because I know quite a few who have come to the United States and all of a sudden with hard work and perseverance, all that bad Karma just disappears.



Life is precious and the soul makes a human different than any other animal or created being.




As for the earlier comment about women being charged with murder for an abortion? I feel no.

Why? Well they already have the psychological damage to deal with for the rest of their lives and even though they did not feel it was wrong, they know.

[edit on 30-11-2004 by edsinger]

that photo of the fetus was absolutely disgusting. where are the moderators? see,it is so funny that the same people who say YES to censorship are the same ones who would publicly post grusome photos like that. yuck! such bad taste.

...sigh .... you're such an authority on what is right and wrong aren't you Ed.... Tell me what are your views on the Pill, IUD, etc? Couples using them wrong as well? They murderers??

Sadly, our society does not reward women who carry their babies to term and allow them to be adopted. They are the true unsung heros who deserve recognition and praise for their unselfish sacrifice by giving life to their babies and by giving happiness to the adoptive parents.

I believe there are tax credits given to adoptive parents. Why not offer tax credits to these heroic women? I would gladly pay taxes to support their incredible courage, which would give them incentive and reward them, albeit financially, which could help many get back on their feet and begin a new life and encourage them to be successful.

I work in a medical laboratory and today I witnessed a lab tech examine a "products of conception" specimen which were the uterine contents of a miscarried pregnancy.

The fetus was about 7 inches long and there was no mistaking it was a human being, and had all it's fingers and toes, a developed mouth, and it was staggering to see close up, rather than in a photograph.

If women considering abortion could see what I saw today, they would most likely choose life, rathen than terminating their pregnancy.

[edit on 11/30/04 by aWoman]

[edit on 11/30/04 by aWoman]

Originally posted by aWoman
Sadly, our society does not reward women who carry their babies to term and allow them to be adopted. They are the true unsung hero�s who deserve recognition and praise for their unselfish sacrifice by giving life to their babies and by giving happiness to the adoptive parents.

I believe there are tax credits given to adoptive parents. Why not offer tax credits to these heroic women? I would gladly pay taxes to support their incredible courage, which would give them incentive and reward them, albeit financially, which could help many get back on their feet and begin a new life and encourage them to be successful.

I work in a medical laboratory and today I witnessed a lab tech examine a "products of conception" specimen which were the uterine contents of a miscarried pregnancy.

The fetus was about 7 inches long and there was no mistaking it was a human being, and had all it's fingers and toes, a developed mouth, and it was staggering to see close up, rather than in a photograph.

If women considering abortion could see what I saw today, they would most likely choose life, rather than terminating their pregnancy.

That's a nice way to look at it. My wife is one who has put a boy up for adoption when she was too young.

Trust me she has paid daily for that. She wraps with great care, his Christmas and birthday presents. I tell her that if he ever comes knocking; he is welcome as long as he likes.

That's what I consider to be some of the best humanity has to offer.

I do however live in a realistic world, and know that we have some serious problems.

I think the elimination of a few key aspects of the Federal Government; we could greatly increase the quality of life for every person living in this country, rich AND poor.

Just if the IRS stopped taking income tax, that would start a boom in this country if played properly. There are more things to consider, but this is a quality way to absorb the shock of changing abortion law.

"Sadly, our society does not reward women who carry their babies to term and allow them to be adopted. "

Exactly! Give women the information and incentives to carry their babies to term for adoption ... but don't treat them like baby-making machines without a say!

Originally posted by psychosgirl
that photo of the fetus was absolutely disgusting. where are the moderators? see,it is so funny that the same people who say YES to censorship are the same ones who would publicly post grusome photos like that. yuck! such bad taste.

Out of curiosity, what do you personally find more upsetting: that this "gross" picture violated your aesthetic sensibilities or the fact that a living fetus was killed? Judging by your posts, I would assume the former, but I don't want to presume what you think.

Originally posted by c_au

Exactly! Give women the information and incentives to carry their babies to term for adoption ... but don't treat them like baby-making machines without a say!

Whose say is it? The majority had the choice. It sounds clich�, but when you gamble, no matter how safe, you do roll the dice.

But is that so different with any other kind of problem? I don't think so.

I don't know why people keep thinking women are so incapable of surviving.

I'm amazed something as personal as this is up to the majority.

For all of you who think abortion should be outlawed just because it is something that happens after sex and you know the consequences when you start, are you also saying anyone who ever gets an STD should not be allowed to get treated for it?

Originally posted by dalepmay
For all of you who think abortion should be outlawed just because it is something that happens after sex and you know the consequences when you start, are you also saying anyone who ever gets an STD should not be allowed to get treated for it?

You're comparing a fetus with a canker sore????????

A fetus is a living human being. A fetus is not a "parasite", a "growth", a piece of "biomass", and other dehumanizing terms I've heard referred to it (rather, him or her). It's really quite simple. Abortion is the ending of a life. The only analogies I'll accept are references to the death penalty & soliders dying in combat...analogies concerning the death of human beings. The only difference being these are completely innocent human beings who quite literally haven't committed one sin in their entire short lives.

Originally posted by Cassie Clay
A fetus is a living human being. A fetus is not a "parasite", a "growth", a piece of "biomass", and other dehumanizing terms I've heard referred to it (rather, him or her). It's really quite simple. Abortion is the ending of a life. The only analogies I'll accept are references to the death penalty & soliders dying in combat...analogies concerning the death of human beings. The only difference being these are completely innocent human beings who quite literally haven't committed one sin in their entire short lives.

May I say thank you for that post?


You did a great job and I agree, not that I am always right but that was very well worded. Thanks!



As for those who didn't like the photo, it was mentioned in these threads that it is not a human yet and therefore it should not have been offensive.

[edit on 30-11-2004 by edsinger]