A Conversation About Abortion you need to read!

Originally posted by edsinger
I really think you should start a new thread with that link, and ask folks to watch it and then to express their opinion of abortion afterwards.


This thread has lived enough.


A good title would be "A movie about abortion I Dare you to see!"

You know Ed i will do that.

So wait, your saying that because your killing something that WILL become a child who MIGHT become something important to society means you have no morals and no place in society?

Yes or no?

Originally posted by devilwasp
So wait, your saying that because your killing something that WILL become a child who MIGHT become something important to society means you have no morals and no place in society?

Yes or no?

Sometimes I wonder about you, killing something that IS a human. Plain and simple......

Originally posted by edsinger
Sometimes I wonder about you, killing something that IS a human. Plain and simple......

Then any killing not in self defence is murder.

Originally posted by Croat56
Alright then how about this
www.precious-life.com...
WARNING WARNING PROBABLY THE MOST GRAPHIC THING EVER POSTED ON THIS SIGHT.

- Still flogging this one to death, hmm?

Wow, those who claim to be so revolted by abortion are only too quick to post up the most graphic images of it they can lay their hands on, no irony there, huh?

Medical blood-porno, hmmmmm?

Originally posted by edsinger

Oh man..........I cry.............


No one pro-abortion will even watch this, for had they, their argument becomes moot.

- Oh for goodness sakes ed, wind it in and stop talking rubbish.

There's a world of revolting images out there to cry your eyes out over, they are what they are. They don't do anything.

To pretend a grossly horrid image settles the abortion issue is just your opinion and clearly nothing more than that.

It's about as relevant as saying the gross cancer pictures you saw as a kid at school were going to stop everyone smoking.......in fact less so as you guys always attempt to portray this as - always - a 'lifestyle' choice.

GOD - Forgive them for they know not what they do.................or do they? And do they care at all.

- If you believe fair enough, but that's just your opinion.

But please don't try to claim the moral high-ground and project 'your little invisible friend' stuff onto the rest of us, ok?

It still amazes me that people can condone the act.....like nothing more than removing a mole.


Why the pictures? Well gee its just a mole right?


As for your bait ---- I am not going to take it..

Originally posted by edsinger
It still amazes me that people can condone the act.....like nothing more than removing a mole.

Whoah there, you dont think doctors or the people who have the operation or any of the supporters of rights like it happening?
You dont actually think that they see it as simple as removeing a mole???

Originally posted by edsinger
As for your bait ---- I am not going to take it..

- Yeah ed, like the whole 'raking up the most gross images one could find' thing wasn't 'bait' in the first place.

Like DW says, you are the only one who has actually equated abortion to mole-removal.
(and whether that is your opinion of others' is neither here nor there, you are the one who said it.)

Everyone I know who ever had one found it a traumatic and harrowing experience and one they are conscious of and live with for the rest of their lives.

But preach on, cos like you'd know such a lot about it, right?

(......and even if you did have friends or a personal experience that would still end up bringing it down to your opinion of it and your total desire to force your views on others)


[edit on 3-6-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

This question is for those of you who are pro-life. If abortion ever becomes illegal what do you think are the proper punishments for the women who have illegal abortions performed? Do you think they should be tried for murder and perhaps get the death penalty? Do you put them in the same category as murderers or sociopathic killers?

Also, what about the doctor or whomever performs the actual punishment?

What about the person who is aware that the woman is going to have an abortion and does nothing about it...what about the fathers who fully support the abortion...or aid the abortion process in any way (ex. drive the woman to place where she gets it done). Wouldn't that be considered aiding and abetting?

The pro-lifers have done nothing on this thread but make derogotary statements and scream "MURDERER!" You make it clear that women who have abortions disgust you. Can we not have a debate with less emotion and more reason? Also, what about women who's lives are threatened if they carry their babies to term, what about victims of rape and incest? Yes I am very aware that they make up less than 5% of all abortions...but these cases still exist and unfortunately are more common than you might think.

I agree with you guys concerning women who use abortion as a form of birth control...I have heard of many cases of women having numerous abortions, and I'd be a liar if I didn't say that it offends me a great deal as a pro-choicer. I don't feel that these women belong behind bars though...I just don't.

I do understand how accidents happen, I think everyone can...can you all say that you have always taken 100% precaution? Lets face it, we live in a sex-obsessed country. Did you know that the typical American has an average of 14 sex partners their entire lives? I'm no prude...but that number seems a bit high no? Even with the threat of STD's and pregnancy, even with devices such as birth control and condoms...people still aren't careful. It's like people don't learn unless they experience the negative themselves...and then there are those that STILL DON'T LEARN.

Can any pro-choicers out there think of a way that we can fix the system so people don't take advantage of it? I try to see both sides of this issue...but there doesn't seem to be a middle ground, either you are pro-life or pro-choice.

Also, can we please stop being so nasty towards each other about this topic? This is a highly sensitive topic for women, and it's a well-known fact that men used to view women as breeding machines (some still do). I am pro-choice yet I have never had an abortion...most pro-choicers have never had the procedure as well...you will meet very few pro-choicers who advocate killing children b/c they are a nuisance. To claim that I (or people like me) are pro-death is very offensive and simply untrue, it's idiotic propaganda rhetoric and you aren't considering all the issues at hand.

I respect those pro-lifers who stand up for what they believe in with true intentions, simply because I can see where they are coming from...especially for the religious ones. I don't respect pro-lifers who participate in name calling and chant "pro-death murderer", in fact I really don't respect hate-mongers in general.

All I ask is for you to look at it from both sides...you will see it's not as black & white as it seems. It would be easy to judge abortion as murder and scream obscenities without looking at the entire picture...just as it would to claim that war or capital punishment is murder...but we all know that, unfortunately, sometimes these are necessary evils which are all able to be abused and manipulated by mankind.

Originally posted by Lecky
If abortion ever becomes illegal what do you think are the proper punishments for the women who have illegal abortions performed?

Herein lies the rub.

Abortion will never be illegal. Overturning Roe, which would take a political miracle rivaling both Noah's Flood and a Seventh's day rest, would simply return the decison making process to the individual states.

Abortion would be legal in Illinois and California
Abortion would be illegal in South Dakota and Alabama

This would most likely cause a population flux, because liberal, pro-choicers would flee these "Christian" states, and Christians would flock to them. It would re-sort Red state vs. Blue state quite literally.

Why is this good liberals?

Because at no point in the history of the human race, has progress ever been successfully stifled. We have time on our side. In states like South Dakota and Alabama, the new religious promised lands, science and progress will be denied. Religion inherently stifles innovation and education. By denying progress, these areas will essentially committing suicide. (Utah being the obvious Christian success story)

Every generation, Children are simply more liberal than the generation before them. Any change in the national political structure won't change this. It will encourage, over time, another population shift as generations of children move away from these conservative areas towards liberal urban centers.

Industries will do as they have always done, they will flock to places where the workforce is both educated and progressive. We'll witness something like economic gentrification. Power and influence will be coalated back into the urban areas, and away from these new found religious areas.

Tourism will most definitly suffer, and without any sort of industrial infrastructure, these areas would have to rely on farms and government subsidies - but the days of the heartland strength of the individual farmer have long since ended - murdered by the Reagan era slash and burn economics.

Basically, without the progress of pro-science liberalism, I would predict nothing short of return to a Dust Bowl era way of life for areas in the south and the badlands.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by edsinger
It still amazes me that people can condone the act.....like nothing more than removing a mole.

Whoah there, you dont think doctors or the people who have the operation or any of the supporters of rights like it happening?
You dont actually think that they see it as simple as removeing a mole???

You yourself called 'it' nothing more than a parsite...

Originally posted by brimstone735
[Basically, without the progress of pro-science liberalism, I would predict nothing short of return to a Dust Bowl era way of life for areas in the south and the badlands.

horsepoop.


What we will have with the Liberalism is a society with no morals and you will see what you see in other countries with no moral code.

God doesn't discourage science, heck its His Creation. But when man forgets the Creator, thats when progress is headed downhill.

Look I am against abortion but understand the concerns that some have, but 90% are for birth control and it you accept that as 'ok' then it is immoral in my opinion.

Stop the 90% and pro-lifers might accept the 3 cases..otherwise its a plain war against the unborn and you know what side you fall on..

What about artificial insemination? Just wondering what other ppls views are on this one? Are we playing God? If it's okay to surgically produce a life, shouldn't we have the right to surgically end one as well?

I apologize if this has been brought up. I haven't read the 15 pages.

BTW: I'm not saying I'm for or against it. I've heard excellent arguments on both sides.

It can be a blessing for the couple that needs it, it brings and celebrates life, not kills it.

What we will have with the Liberalism is a society with no morals and you will see what you see in other countries with no moral code.

God doesn't discourage science, heck its His Creation. But when man forgets the Creator, thats when progress is headed downhill.

I respect your faith Ed, but it's entirely possible for someone who is nonreligious to have morals...yes even the liberals. It's also quite possible for a religious conservative to lack morals. Also, could you please name one of those countries that are "corrupted" by liberalsm? You mean like Sweden, Canada, The Netherlands...yeah they have huge reputations for being morally corrupt hell holes...we never want to be like them!!!
Or are you being the typical misinformed conservative who labels liberals as socialists? You really fall for that "Christian" conservative rhetoric...bigtime!

Anyway, I stated that I was in agreement about using abortion as a birth control method, that I think it's wrong...but you know that's really easy for me to say considering I am financially able to support and care for a child if I were to ever be pregnant. I'm sure it's even more so easier for you...considering you are a man and don't have to worry about getting pregnant and dealing with the consequences much.

Originally posted by Lecky
You mean like Sweden, Canada, The Netherlands...yeah they have huge reputations for being morally corrupt hell holes...we never want to be like them!!!

Yeah I really want to be like the Dutch. Not a chance......I mean that is the country that legalized Euthanasia and now you have kids asking parents to off themselves as the financial burden grows......Yes you guessed right. The Dutch are known for high moral ground.

Can a Liberal have morals? Absolutely, the true liberals can....not the fake, what do the polls say ones.

Originally posted by LeckyAnyway, I stated that I was in agreement about using abortion as a birth control method, that I think it's wrong...but you know that's really easy for me to say considering I am financially able to support and care for a child if I were to ever be pregnant. I'm sure it's even more so easier for you...considering you are a man and don't have to worry about getting pregnant and dealing with the consequences much.

Well considering I had to sell my last remaining assets to pay for the purchase of the "birth" of my daughter, I resent that statement. I couldn't get help when I needed it, so I paid cash sold everything I owned that wasn't tied down to come up with the $8,000........just how many of you liberals can say that?

Originally posted by edsinger
Well considering I had to sell my last remaining assets to pay for the purchase of the "birth" of my daughter, I resent that statement. I couldn't get help when I needed it, so I paid cash sold everything I owned that wasn't tied down to come up with the $8,000........just how many of you liberals can say that?

You are married no? That always helps, especially when mommy can take care of baby while you earn money. I really don't want to make this personal, I don't know you or your personal situation so lets stop there. My point was that it's always easy to critisize someone and say what you would do in their position...but the truth is no one knows what they would do in someone else's shoes, you'd be a totally different person with different life experiences.

Again, I'm not an abortion advocate, but I support a woman's right to choose. I agree with the Christian conservatives about the issue of sex in that people are taking it way too lightly and are careless with their bodies. Maybe if people were more careful and took it seriously there would be a lot less unwanted pregnancies.

Oh...and Ed I just wanted to say that I support Euthanasia for those on their death bed in severe pain...how can one not?

[edit on 6/4/2005 by Lecky]

Originally posted by edsinger
You yourself called 'it' nothing more than a parsite...

Its living off the host, it has everything the dictionary says a parasite is.

Dictionary.com:

An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

Originally posted by LeckyYou are married no? That always helps, especially when mommy can take care of baby while you earn money. I really don't want to make this personal, I don't know you or your personal situation so lets stop there. My point was that it's always easy to critisize someone and say what you would do in their position...but the truth is no one knows what they would do in someone else's shoes, you'd be a totally different person with different life experiences.

Criticize folks for what? Killing a Baby?
The Circumstances do not necessarily justify the act. We at least agree that the great % of them are for birth control reasons only. That is this generation, no responsibility, its always someone else's fault, There have been 30 million abortions since R V Wade......thats 30 million.....we are a nation of 300 million to add some perspective to that....

Originally posted by Lecky
Again, I'm not an abortion advocate, but I support a woman's right to choose. I agree with the Christian conservatives about the issue of sex in that people are taking it way too lightly and are careless with their bodies. Maybe if people were more careful and took it seriously there would be a lot less unwanted pregnancies.

unwanted pregnancies - Well you just nailed it. They want the "nut" but are to stupid or lazy to take precautions? So they take the easy way and that involves killing the result of irresponsibility.

Originally posted by LeckyOh...and Ed I just wanted to say that I support Euthanasia for those on their death bed in severe pain...how can one not?

Well the concept seems right but when do you draw the line? Look at what is happening with it in Holland.....

Gee Dad, I really can't afford to pay for you anymore. You really don't live much anyway, cant get up and move around anymore, the grandkids need things and I can no longer keep paying for you and them. Why not end it and go out on your own terms and help the family out? We can all say goodbye that way.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by edsinger
You yourself called 'it' nothing more than a parsite...

Its living off the host, it has everything the dictionary says a parasite is.

Dictionary.com:

An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

And there lies your problem.........when you start thinking of human as no more than organisms then you are lost.

WE HAVE SOULS! I know you don't believe in God so you cant understand the concept, but you yourself do know that Humans have something no other animal has.....now what that is, that is your struggle not mine.

When you hold your first child in your arms - remember, its just a parasite.

[edit on 4-6-2005 by edsinger]

Originally posted by edsinger
And there lies your problem.........when you start thinking of human as no more than organisms then you are lost.

Woah, and when did a few cell lifeform become a human?
When it was a sperm?
When it was an egg?
If so then why are the pro lifers not banning masterbation because frankly millions die there, isnt that mass murder?

WE HAVE SOULS! I know you don't believe in God so you cant understand the concept, but you yourself do know that Humans have something no other animal has.....now what that is, that is your struggle not mine.

Wait, so we're now onto religion?
Why should WE be forced to believe YOUR religion?
Our existance is pure fluke.

When you hold your first child in your arms - remember, its just a parasite.
[edit on 4-6-2005 by edsinger]

No because thats a baby, technically speaking a child IS a parasite but its all about interpretation now isnt it?