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ATF accuses Ares Armor of illegal gun sales
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District Judge Janis L. Sammartino of the United States District Court, Southern District of California issued an order Friday to prevent Oceanside's gun parts supplier Ares Armor from divesting itself of inventory and records subject to a temporary restraining order the court issued Tuesday. Also included in the order was notice that the TRO did “not restrain lawful criminal proceedings,” as well as a modification of the briefing schedule ordering “the parties [to] fully address all of the facts and circumstances as alleged by one another." The TRO, as reported in this column on Thursday, was requested by Ares Armor to forestall a raid by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in which inventory and customer records were targeted for seizure. That ATF action was in response to the company selling so-called “80 percent lower receivers” manufactured by EP Armory, itself the subject of a raid and seizures over parts which have previously been determined by ATF not to be a firearm, as further machining operations must be taken by customers to turn them into functional components. As explained by St. Louis Gun Rights Examiner Kurt Hofmann, “EP Armory's polymer 80% lower receivers have a unique feature in that the material to be removed by milling and/or drilling is a different color from the material that is to be left untouched -- thus making it easy to do the machining, even without a jig.”
www.examiner.com...
And from their own website.
TO: Whom It May Concern FROM: Dimitrios Karras, CEO Ares Armor SUBJ: Temporary Restraining Order Against BATFE DATE: March 12, 2014 Sir or Ma’am, Last week the BATFE Raided EP Armory based on a determination letter that had deemed the 80% Polymer product to be a firearm. The determination letter that the BATFE used to obtain warrants against EP Armory is based on incorrect information about the manufacturing process. The BATFE has been notified of their error and the incorrectness of their determination based on this error. This week on Monday, March 10th the BATFE threatened to raid us even though they are fully aware that their determination letter is factually incorrect. They requested that we turn over a list of every customer that had purchased a polymer lower from us and turn over the remaining inventory that we have. Our customer’s privacy is of the utmost importance to us. I cannot in good moral conscience turn over a list of names to the BATFE just because they unduly threaten us with an unjust raid based on information they KNOW TO BE FALSE! For the time we are SAFE! We were granted a Temporary Restraining Order against the BATFE on March 11th.
aresarmor.com...[editb y]edit on Thu Apr 3 2014 by DontTreadOnMe because: trimmed long quote IMPORTANT: Using Content From Other Websites on ATS
Sounds pretty bad in my opinion. I am not too familiar with their product but am "very" familiar with their competitors product that is almost
identical. The pure fact that they are demanding a customer list sends shivers down my spine, especially with all the gun grabbing ideas floating
around as of late. I understand why they would want the list if the product was in question but this whole things smells of something really fishy to
me.... Just wanted to give any fellow members a heads up if this is your cup of tea...
reply to post by jaynkeel
Same here.
Ever see Joe Kidd?
"One day, there was a fire." --Louis Chama
The pure fact that they are demanding a customer list sends shivers down my spine, especially with all the gun grabbing ideas floating around as of late.
Same here.
Ever see Joe Kidd?
"One day, there was a fire." --Louis Chama
I think I got more hate mail off this topic than any other I recall...but good that they are busting the 80%/20% scams. It's not a scam for what it
is, but it's absolutely a cheap run around California law. I think their law pretty much sucks too...but CHANGE it and stop electing goof balls like
Jerry Brown rather than try and break it so just the clever one benefits and everyone else keeps going down in The People's Republic Of...
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
Not sure I totally follow what your saying here? The whole debate between the 80% receiver and your focus on California might be what is throwing me for a loop. This has way more to do with the current laws on the books and how and what constitutes a lower receiver on an ar-15 style rifle and what the atf considers a serialized part. For the sake of clarity you probably already know but others might not when it comes to the serialized control of said firearms. For those that might not know the only part that the atf considers the actual firearm is the lower on the ar 15. It is where the serial # is located and when purchasing an ar 15 or it's components the only thing requiring registration other than tax stamps for barrel items which is beyond this discussion. So by purchasing an 80% complete lower until it is milled out by the end user it is nothing more than a hunk of aluminum or poly, or nonfunctional. And by their own set of rules a person can build a firearm for personal use and not have to have a serial # on it as long as it is not sold or transferred, the only requirement is that the maker of the gun has to stamp name, address of the builder onto the receiver thus avoiding the need for a serialized part. So in a nutshell this to me goes way beyond California and their crazy rules, hell even NY's new legislation can't currently touch these things the way the law is on the books right now. What I feel we are seeing here all over again is these agencies trying to change the rules without following the protocol and that is once again a scary road to go down. You cannot deny that between the gun grabs and everything that has gone on in states like Conn recently and things like this that certain people agencies are trying their hardest to push someones agenda through, and far from the legal and proper way.....
Not sure I totally follow what your saying here? The whole debate between the 80% receiver and your focus on California might be what is throwing me for a loop. This has way more to do with the current laws on the books and how and what constitutes a lower receiver on an ar-15 style rifle and what the atf considers a serialized part. For the sake of clarity you probably already know but others might not when it comes to the serialized control of said firearms. For those that might not know the only part that the atf considers the actual firearm is the lower on the ar 15. It is where the serial # is located and when purchasing an ar 15 or it's components the only thing requiring registration other than tax stamps for barrel items which is beyond this discussion. So by purchasing an 80% complete lower until it is milled out by the end user it is nothing more than a hunk of aluminum or poly, or nonfunctional. And by their own set of rules a person can build a firearm for personal use and not have to have a serial # on it as long as it is not sold or transferred, the only requirement is that the maker of the gun has to stamp name, address of the builder onto the receiver thus avoiding the need for a serialized part. So in a nutshell this to me goes way beyond California and their crazy rules, hell even NY's new legislation can't currently touch these things the way the law is on the books right now. What I feel we are seeing here all over again is these agencies trying to change the rules without following the protocol and that is once again a scary road to go down. You cannot deny that between the gun grabs and everything that has gone on in states like Conn recently and things like this that certain people agencies are trying their hardest to push someones agenda through, and far from the legal and proper way.....
reply to post by jaynkeel
From my limited understanding of the situation, theres a little bit more to it than just the 80% lowers.
Allegedly, ARES was making it a little bit easier to drill by color coding the holes and there was some other technicality.
Regardless, the gun grabbers are using whatever excuse they can to further their agenda.
Like other departments and agencies, the BATF can create its own enforceable rules and regulations, circumventing Congress, which IMHO, is no accident.
And lets be honest, they are keeping a gun registry.
From my limited understanding of the situation, theres a little bit more to it than just the 80% lowers.
Allegedly, ARES was making it a little bit easier to drill by color coding the holes and there was some other technicality.
Regardless, the gun grabbers are using whatever excuse they can to further their agenda.
Like other departments and agencies, the BATF can create its own enforceable rules and regulations, circumventing Congress, which IMHO, is no accident.
And lets be honest, they are keeping a gun registry.
edit on 17-3-2014 by gladtobehere because: wording
reply to post by gladtobehere
Pretty sure the other company out there color codes as well. I will have to check later when I have a free moment. But yeah scary on everything else. Thanks for stopping by..
Pretty sure the other company out there color codes as well. I will have to check later when I have a free moment. But yeah scary on everything else. Thanks for stopping by..
jaynkeel
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
Not sure I totally follow what your saying here? The whole debate between the 80% receiver and your focus on California might be what is throwing me for a loop. This has way more to do with the current laws on the books and how and what constitutes a lower receiver on an ar-15 style rifle and what the atf considers a serialized part. For the sake of clarity you probably already know but others might not when it comes to the serialized control of said firearms. For those that might not know the only part that the atf considers the actual firearm is the lower on the ar 15. It is where the serial # is located and when purchasing an ar 15 or it's components the only thing requiring registration other than tax stamps for barrel items which is beyond this discussion. So by purchasing an 80% complete lower until it is milled out by the end user it is nothing more than a hunk of aluminum or poly, or nonfunctional. And by their own set of rules a person can build a firearm for personal use and not have to have a serial # on it as long as it is not sold or transferred, the only requirement is that the maker of the gun has to stamp name, address of the builder onto the receiver thus avoiding the need for a serialized part. So in a nutshell this to me goes way beyond California and their crazy rules, hell even NY's new legislation can't currently touch these things the way the law is on the books right now. What I feel we are seeing here all over again is these agencies trying to change the rules without following the protocol and that is once again a scary road to go down. You cannot deny that between the gun grabs and everything that has gone on in states like Conn recently and things like this that certain people agencies are trying their hardest to push someones agenda through, and far from the legal and proper way.....
What he is trying to say is change the law don't side step it. Vote in people that see things the way you do and will change the law to reflect that. They should have to hand over the names on this list because there is no way of telling how many of these parts have landed in the hands of drug dealers and other criminals.
reply to post by buster2010
But nobody is side stepping the law except the atf. If anything they are the ones that need to change the law. And I hardly doubt that any drug dealer is gonna go this route as there is too much time and effort involved. When going to any shady alley so they say can net you a complete rifle all you need to do is clean and load it. These parts unmachined are no more dangerous than a rifle scope or bi pod, they are completely useless without machining and about half a dozen other important parts need to fire the gun including the upper assembly.
But nobody is side stepping the law except the atf. If anything they are the ones that need to change the law. And I hardly doubt that any drug dealer is gonna go this route as there is too much time and effort involved. When going to any shady alley so they say can net you a complete rifle all you need to do is clean and load it. These parts unmachined are no more dangerous than a rifle scope or bi pod, they are completely useless without machining and about half a dozen other important parts need to fire the gun including the upper assembly.
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms?
Yeah, come on over to the trailer!
Yeah, come on over to the trailer!
reply to post by jaynkeel
I heard about this a couple weeks ago on the ol Lars Larson radio show
Lars, who I agree with sometimes said that like your own perspective these are legal to make so the the ATF are in the wrong
On that point I agree
However on his radio program he then used in an example (that he would call a straw man argument if it was someone else) of any old block of aluminum or poly that can be used for anything is no different than one that has been partially machined, regardless of how far it is from completion, until it is complete it cannot be a usable piece of the weapon.
Ok that is true
But can it be used for anything else after it is 80% configured for an AR lower?
A paperweight?
A handgrenade can also be a paperweight
IMHO the ATF was wrong, and to agree with the wrabbit the law should be changed. And frankly the guys producing the 'legal' unserialized lowers knew they were skirting the law, and they were already walking on thin ice, but the ATF should not single any one company out.
Fix the law, enforce the law.
X
I heard about this a couple weeks ago on the ol Lars Larson radio show
Lars, who I agree with sometimes said that like your own perspective these are legal to make so the the ATF are in the wrong
On that point I agree
However on his radio program he then used in an example (that he would call a straw man argument if it was someone else) of any old block of aluminum or poly that can be used for anything is no different than one that has been partially machined, regardless of how far it is from completion, until it is complete it cannot be a usable piece of the weapon.
Ok that is true
But can it be used for anything else after it is 80% configured for an AR lower?
A paperweight?
A handgrenade can also be a paperweight
IMHO the ATF was wrong, and to agree with the wrabbit the law should be changed. And frankly the guys producing the 'legal' unserialized lowers knew they were skirting the law, and they were already walking on thin ice, but the ATF should not single any one company out.
Fix the law, enforce the law.
X